Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Heatsource1 => Topic started by: shawbran on December 09, 2013, 08:13:36 AM
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Having problems maintaining a temperature. Have it set at 160, I can have it full of wood and it varies between 165 when it finally gets up there. This morning it was full of two year old hedge wood and the temp was only 110. Any ideas on what is happening here?
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Was there still wood in the stove this morning when you checked it? How long have you been running this stove? Is there a good coal bed in it to help get the fire going when it calls for heat? You mentioned that the wood is two years old. Has it been split and stacked for 2 years?
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Run a chimney brush down your chimney pipe. If I keep a 10 degree diff and set 150-160 also using my stock 18inch chimney I have 0 issues with chimney pluggage.
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Yes there was wood in it. I'm on year three with these stoves. I have one and my father as one. My fathers is the one that we are having problems with. We both are burning the same wood that has been cut and stacked drying for 2 years. Mine is maintaining temperature just fine my fathers well that's another story. They are straight inline with each other and about 500 ft apart. With the damper open it works fine but burns a lot of wood. If I close the damper that's when I have the problems.
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Unplug the pump and let it come up to temp. Should come right up to 180 in less than an hour. After it comes up to temp, plug the pump back in and see what the return temps back to the stove are.
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What is the best way to measure the temps? Infared thermometer? I've measured before and usually don't have more than 2-3 degrees heat loss.
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I use an infrared thermometer to measure mine. I always measure at a point that insulation is covering, just pull back the insulation for the reading and hold the infrared thermometer inline with the pipe to get the most accurate reading. I have found if you hold it perpendicular to the direction of the pipe the sensor has a hard time picking up what it is sensing.
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Okay so I've been babying this stove along since I last posted. Yesterday the high was 23 here. When I check the stove Saturday night the temp was 150. I put three 6 inch pieces and one 24" piece split in half. Yesterday morning the water temp was 92 degrees. There was still wood I the stove and it was burning. The highest the stove ever recovered to was 142 in a eight hour period with the pump running. If I unplug the pump it usually takes several hours to recover. Now I'm looking at two different possible problems. Could I have to big of pump or too small of one? Dads running a 3 speed pl36 pump. Or could it have something to do with the heat exchangers as we both have different ones? I'm lost
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We really need to know the temps of the lines. If we don't know those numbers we will only be guessing. Are these seasoned pieces of wood you are burning? There should be no sizzling when they are burning. Green wood reduces the btu output of each pound of wood to about 50% of dry wood equivilant.
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There is a 10 degree if between the lines. 143 out going and 134 incoming. No sizzling dried wood have burnt wood for 20 years never had a problem untilwe bought outdoor boilers and the pumps are nrf-36 not pl 36
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Is that 10 degree delta t with all zones calling for heat? Did you try unplugging the pump and letting the stove come up to temp? I assume you have made sure th boiler is full of water, th fan is blowing hard with nothing obstructing it, flue and chimney are clear?
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Yes that's with all zones calling for heat. By unplugging the pumps which I did today it still took three hours to get from 123 degrees up to 160 where we have the stove at. We've used a fiber optics inspection camera and found no blockage in the system. I did the inspection way before I started asking questions. If I put the stove in the gasification mode that's when I get no heat. If I put in bypass mode which is like a normal stove I can get better heat but I'm burning losts of wood to maintain that heat. Where our other stove runs with no problem in gasification mode buring the same wood from the same pile. This is why I'm so confused.
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Stupid question but is you inducer fan not putting out the cfms?
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Yes it is. Blowing just like the other stove which is the same model and both are set the same.
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I am not familiar with the earth gasser but it is obviously not transfering the heat from the heat exchanger to the water. What is your stack temp?
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Good stove that is working correctly has a stack temp of 99 degrees non working stove is 45 degrees
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All that I can really think of off the top of my head is that the wood you are burning is green. If your stack temps are low AND you are not transferring the heat to the water in the stove that means that you have a cold fire, typically caused by either green wood which is using btu's to burn off the water or very low btu wood. I tried to look on the heatsource1 website about how the 190 is built etc but found very little info. I assume that it is a downdraft gasser? I also assume that its not lighting off the secondary and gassifying, correct?
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Is it a downdraft gasser? Is the secondary lighting off and staying lit? Did this stove ever work correctly or have you had problems with this particular one ever since you have had it?
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yes its a downdraft gasser. It worked fine until this year. I guess I don't know what the secondary lighting is.
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When the gas leaves the burn chamber by way of the bottom of the firebox(downdraft gasser) there should be a secondary air injection there and you should have a VERY hot 2000 degree flame shooting into the bottom of the unit which is likely covered in firebrick. Is there flame present or not? If it is not lit off then you will have very little heat output from the unit.
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These units have to be at at least 130deg. before even thinking about switching to downdraft mode. I run mine at no less than 170 deg,on the control and have a nice white/bluish flame / should remind you of an afterburner on a jet. water valve adjustment at top rear of unit seems to affect this as well. You need a good hot coal bed to have the secondary burn taking place effectively/ otherwise it'll just blow ash and smoke in the tunnels.I am running draft damper at approximately 2 1/2 setting. I would definately mix up your sizes of would and make sure they nest together well(no big gaps). Shawbran, make sure and give me a call if what we discussed on the phone happens to work. My unit is performing well and I am not choosy on wood. Burning a mix of green and dry....beggars can't be choosy. I have also found that if you just add this to chores and throw in wood before work after work and before bed... it uses less and stays hot. smaller loads and hotter fires.
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Tule, has he ever been gassifying with this thing?
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Hondaracer< yes, he has. We have conversed via phone many times, as we are but a few of the owners of these gassers by this company and put them into service at about the same time. Seems one stove has always been kinda finicky for some odd reason. I am no expert, but I just advise on what has worked for me. I used to keep really close tabs on it in the beginning, but as long as I am warm, and shop is warm, not so much. I run into problems when I have my young son tend the fire. He just chucks wood in and shuts door. No observation on his part as to what sort of coal bed/temp., whether or not coals are glowing/ or more like charcoal, etc.. I surmise that he may have the same issue with his dad's stove. My son on occasion, has thrown 2 big rounds in thinking that was a good thing as that wood burn much longer....well he was correct, except for the fact that very little heat is gained(actually lost temp.)( again, my observation, with my wood supply/which is mix of this years cut and 1-2 year seasoned.). So, I have used the small/large/dry/ green mix ever since. Works great for me.
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http://youtu.be/s2Dd7q6Ry7g (http://youtu.be/s2Dd7q6Ry7g)
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Well that answer that, its gassifying. Now we need to figure out why it is not transferring that heat to the water jacket. How do you clean out your heat exchangers that the hot flue gas passes through on its way to exiting the unit? I see that the Portage and Main guys clean there heat exchangers every week. Where are you measure the stack temp when it exits. The Portage and Main guys say that they are getting around 275* stack temps and they are very happy with that efficiency. If you have 150* I think you are measuring something not accurate to the actual stack temp since that means it would be more efficient then the P&M which can't be true since it won't bring the water up to temp.
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I was measuring at the bottom of the stack where it exits the roof. I have not cleaned the heat exhangers yet. I just contacted the company about doing that today since they are bolted and silicone in. I'm guess that's probably where my problem will be found. I spent yesterday cleaning the ashes out in the -10 wind chill and that was enough for me. I'm going to have to unhook several water lines to remove the heat exchangers after speaking with someone today. Could possibly having the valves set wrong be the reason that it isn't transferring also? These stoves have a 1/2" pex line that goes from the top of the water jacket into the exchanger and exits at the bottom of the exchanger and recycles back into the return from the house. Think one of these might be adjusted incorrectly?
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Man o Man it sounds like you have a real funky set up on that thing! Most gassers heat exchanger sends the flue gas through 10-15 1 1/2 or 2 inch pipe which passes through the water jacket several times and then exits the flue stack. I don't have any grasp on the design of your stove at all. The portage and main people have to run a brush through the pipes every week or so to get the ashes and crud out so that the flue gas contacts the pipes and passes the heat into the water.
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Holy wow... That's a big pump. Almost 20gpm at 20' of head. Its more than a 26-99 on spd3. And more than a Taco 0011 or 0013. You said you have it on spd3, so even on spd1 it close to a 0014. Any idea on head in the loop. Either way is there anything visible coating the FB. Or tubes.
That NRF is the same circ we used to heat air handlers in 6 school rooms.
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I run an NRF-36 on speed three as well. Needed the gpm to get my delta t where it needed to be pushing through a 24x24 water to air HX. I get a 22 degree drop across it. I had to run two 1 inch lines each way to reduce the friction loss and get the 'Head' where it needed to be to reduce the temp drop across the HX. I get a 30 degree drop on speed 1.
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I am the owner of CVR Manufacturing (the company that purchased the Heatsource1 Brand of stoves) I just want to respond to shawbran about my company.
You talked to me. You called looking for free technical information on a stove that we do not make and I have no experience running. I spent several minutes listening to your problems and making suggestions. You asked if I would take it in trade and I told you I would. This just shows that no good deed goes unpunished. Next time you have trouble and need parts -please call some one else.
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CVR,
Thanks for reading the forum. I think that more manufacturers need to do so to learn what problems their customers have and what improvements can be made to their products. I can't speak to the conversation that you had with shawbran since obviously none of us know what was really said. Some people can be unreasonable to deal with as you know and some people are good people but are very frustrated by current or former manufacturers in this business sometimes because of the lack of ability to rectify their particular situation which may be the fault of the owner or could be the fault of the manufacturer. Please don't be disgruntled and stop coming around the forum.
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I am the owner of CVR Manufacturing (the company that purchased the Heatsource1 Brand of stoves) I just want to respond to shawbran about my company.
You talked to me. You called looking for free technical information on a stove that we do not make and I have no experience running. I spent several minutes listening to your problems and making suggestions. You asked if I would take it in trade and I told you I would. This just shows that no good deed goes unpunished. Next time you have trouble and need parts -please call some one else.
I noticed that you threw in the word "free" in describing what shawbran was looking for in technical assistance. It has been my experience that you tend to learn alot about a person's motivations by listening and analyzing content and delivery. (you could have just as well said" looking for technical assistance on a product I have never dealt with". I recieved correspondence from you when you purchased this company and instantly summed you up as one who may be out for the quick buck as the only thing you "offered was a water test at $25 a pop. Obviously you went through the mailing list to try to make some easy money. The fact that you responded the way you did in telling shawbran to find someone else, when he has trouble or needs parts...shows you are just a bit arrogant.(plenty of knowledgeable people to talk shop besides you). Many of us on here are too busy that we will look for easy answers first, by looking here to see if anyone else has had the same problem. (in reality-alot of us probably know what the answer to a problem is, but are hoping we missed something obvious....and easier to fix). It rarely works out that way, though.I would think, since you bought the company, that you would have gotten the rights to this unit as well, especially since I can still find reference to it with your company name , online. This unit works but it remains to be seen how long it lasts. Can be finicky at times, but it is not rocket science. Furthermore, there are a ton of other suppliers for parts and good down-home assistance. freeheat4u will talk yer leg off with assistance and get you hooked up with any parts at a reasonable price. Good luck, CVR, on reinventing the wheel.
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I am the owner of CVR Manufacturing (the company that purchased the Heatsource1 Brand of stoves) I just want to respond to shawbran about my company.
You talked to me. You called looking for free technical information on a stove that we do not make and I have no experience running. I spent several minutes listening to your problems and making suggestions. You asked if I would take it in trade and I told you I would. This just shows that no good deed goes unpunished. Next time you have trouble and need parts -please call some one else.
WOW and in one post, you ruined what could have been a great opourtunity to show what good , honest ,and helpful new owners you might be. At least we know it only takes one word to penetrate some thin skin. I wonder if the new models will have thicker.
I'm guessing that you offered to take it in on trade for the upgraded price of a unit you need to push on someone. You would think that helping previous customers of the company you now own would be a great way to quickly build a customer base. Or at least service, especially since that's where the money is. You give the best and you'll get the best.
I can't wait to see your design and stove quality.
Good luck , but I think you will need to stick to uninformed/educated customers to get any sales....
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I always wondered why manufacturer's don't post much info or promotion, CVRman provided the exact opposite of promotion, I guess that answers why there are not more manufacturer's on the forum. Hits close to home since I have a HeatSource1 boiler myself.
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The reason manufacturers don't post I have learned from this is - There is no winning to responding! No matter how wrong the post related to your company -any response is taken as weakness and criticized. I will continue to read the forum about my products and will respond if there are questions on our products.
But ITO, you are right. Sorry about that my mistake.
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Maybe to a few it might appear they didn't win. But when handled like a professional , the average guy will see thru the kind of customer that can't be pleased. And online support puts a rep way ahead. Many top manufacturers and dealers do online support for all kinds of appliances. Every reply is a chance to win another customer. Can't even begin to tell you how many people wish they had a Scott or slim as a dealer in there area.
Not all conversations have to be public, but if there is never anything to hide why not.
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CVRman thanks for your reply shows great customer service. I appreciate the advice to go some where else. If our family business told customers to do that, pretty sure we wouldn't have been in business for the past 50 years. And the comment about trading in wasn't my question that was your suggest to fix my problem. Don't worry have a supply house to get all my parts. Everyone else thanks for the replies, we have come up with a solution to get it thru the winter and will rectify it when it warms up this summer.
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CVR, I absolutely will disagree with your statement, this is whats wrong with this industry, there are many posts on here from different people who are mad at the manufacturer, what makes them madder is when the manufacturer buries his head in the sand to make the problem go away, you will never fix everybodies boiler problems but you will gain the respect of everybody if you at least try, my suggestion is that both of you start over with your conversation!
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Shawbran, did you figure out the whole heat exchanger set up? Sounds strange the way you described it.
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Slimjim this situation is different. I did not build, design or sell the stove in question (and I have never had any dealings with Shawbran before). I bought the company and it includes the right to build the stove design in question. We do not build this style of stove for a reason.
I certainly did try to help with Shawbran's problem and I have always done so with every call to my company. I was not able to solve his problem but I dd not deserve his post.
I should not have posted when mad. Not my first mistake - not my last.
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CVR, again we will never satisfy everybody, I have those customers as well, most of them can be brought around by simply listening to thier problem. Suggestion for the angry customer, my wife always says that it's fine to bring a problem to the table but bringing 2 solutions with it can get us all started on the path to resolution. CVR if you need help with whatever, maybe we can help, I would not be opposed to trying.
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thank goodness for this fourm,being new and researching owb and heat source 1 is in my area,after reading cvrmans response,saves me gas money and time at not looking at his boilers,i would rather pay the propane man,than buy his crap.
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Mule, there are always at least 2 sides to every story, If I were in CVR's area and looking for a boiler I would at least check him and his boilers out, he has apologized for his angry post and has the grapes to come on here and try to explain the situation. CVR do you think that the 2 of you could still have a civil conversation and try to resolve the issue, it sure would do wonders for everybody's credibility if you could.
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whats done is done ,shawbran might be burning pouplar for all i know ,and he might not be very happy ,but from what i have read ,hes famly taking care of his dads boiler problems ,and the owner of heatsource one, came on here and told him to go else where,iam new to this owb and dont want to spend 10,000 dollars on a system and it doesnt work ,and get told to go else where ,iam for the little guy.