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Author Topic: Adding water capacity with an external tank  (Read 12834 times)

brink1963

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Adding water capacity with an external tank
« on: March 07, 2014, 12:44:35 PM »

I was thinking of the possibility of adding a well insulated storage tank on the inside of my home as part of the circulation loop of the furnace to increase the available hot water when the system calls for heat. So I would add an additional 55 gallons of capacity by using a plastic 55 gallon drum. The hot line from the furnace would feed into the drum and then the line would go to the heat exchanger and back to the furnace as normal. This could help with under sized systems or with maybe moderating the temperature of the loop.

Thoughts?
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mlappin

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2014, 02:09:58 PM »

Not sure how your standard 55 gallon plastic drum would like that hot of water. I could be wrong though, check a site out that makes the drums and see if they have any specs on temp.

Maybe find a smaller fuel oil tank, rinse it out good with Dawn and the hottest water you can get then use that?
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hondaracer2oo4

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2014, 04:52:08 PM »

Sprinter has talked me into doing this although I haven't done it yet. He suggested using a water heater tank which is well insulated already. Its called a 'buffer' tank which he says its considered a buffer up to around 125 gallons, anything over that would be extra storage. He says to remove the electric water heater elements which are 1 inch holes and install a 1.5 inch copper T to each of the element holes. On one side of the bottom element hole T you would plumb incoming water from the owb and on one side of the top element hole T you would send water back to the boiler. Then on the other side of the bottom T you would have a pump that would be hooked to your house thermostat and only flow water to your HX when the house calls for heat. He suggested using the top ports tied together with a pump to feed your DHW side arm or plate hx when it calls for heat. All the water returning from the dhw and the house hx would tie back in to the buffer tank on the other side of the top element hole T. He says that acts also as a hydraulic separator dropping any junk to the bottom of the tank. I am looking for a cheap used water heater right now in the 55 gallon range. 
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jtepn87

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 07:42:45 PM »

Hondaracer2oo4, check with your local hardware store and see if they have any warranty returns laying around. I know that we get 4 or 5 a year. Most of them are gas, but electric ones will pop up. Also plumbing companies, would probably have a few that they took and replaced
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Steinacher Sales

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 05:07:08 AM »

Sears has an add for reconditioned electric hot water heaters, 55 gal. for $98.93. That's not to bad for some extra water storage. Like someone said they are already insulated very well.

Greg Steinacher

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JDfarmer

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2014, 09:55:40 PM »

Did you guys do this project?
I was in Russia at an orphanage. They have a boiler system. They added three 1000ga metal water tanks insulted to their boiler loop. It allows them to only fire up the boiler about every other day. One tank is insulated underground, the other two are in a boiler room built separately. It's kind of like a Garn in a way with over 3000ga of water storage.
I have been thinking to add a 500ga water tank insulated either in the basement or even better outside underground or in a insulated shed. I have a NCB 250coal that works awesome, but with an additional 500ga I think I could avoid the temp fluctuations. May be an extra 55-100ga insulated water tank in the basement would be enough.
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LittleJohn

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 06:19:33 AM »

Also remember that the location of the "buffer" tank is important;
* Locate after OWB, and before radiant system to have more consistant supply temperatures to radiant surfaces
* Locate before OWB, and after radiant system to have more consistant return temperatutes to OWB
...not which one you are more concerned with Supply or Return temp

If you made it big enough, it would act something like a large Commercial type Hydronic/Hydraulic seperator.
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JDfarmer

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 06:31:27 AM »

I have a NCB250 coal for a 4200 sqft house very insulated, DH water. My water line is 8 foot deep insulated and there is no drop in demo from the boiler to the house even bellow 0F. Boiler about 120 feet from the house. I use 80% coal and 20 wood for 3 seasons now. Works great. 175F off, 170F on settings. 5 diff because of the coal.
When it's cold out and my my blower kicks in the house, the boiler water temp drops to about 165ish or bellow. Even low 160s. Then it comes back up of course but it stays in the 160s for a while. The boiler is rated by NCB for up to 6000sqft, but it almost seems that the water storage capacity is too small. I was wondering if I added at least 150ga insulted tank after the boiler before the heat exchanger, it would increase my capacity 60%.
Would you add it before the house exchanger? How big of a tank would you add? I could put it next to the boiler outside in a insulated shed, and tie it to the to the house line. My holier had a second to the house out port, so I could even put a water pump there to the storage tank and tie the tank out port to the existing to the house line.
what do you guys think?
thanks

Also remember that the location of the "buffer" tank is important;
* Locate after OWB, and before radiant system to have more consistant supply temperatures to radiant surfaces
* Locate before OWB, and after radiant system to have more consistant return temperatutes to OWB
...not which one you are more concerned with Supply or Return temp

If you made it big enough, it would act something like a large Commercial type Hydronic/Hydraulic seperator.
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LittleJohn

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 08:10:50 AM »

Adding water capacity does not affect your BTUs/hr output; that is determined by how big your boiler is (firebox, fire wood size, etc).  You can only put a set amount fo BTUs into the system, based on OWB boiler sizing.

**All a buffer tank or Hydronic Seperator do is to help elimate the extreme temperature swings (up or down) in a system, not add BTU/hr capacity


ALSO REMEMEBER, that by adding water volume; YES you adding more hot water to the system, but when that water cools off you just have that much more water to heat back.  :-\  Which may or may not extend your calls for heat and reduce the reaction time of your system.
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JDfarmer

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 08:38:26 AM »

Ok; thanks.
My firebox is very large, and the boiler seem to catch up after a while. So, may be I should just try a water tank in the basement; may be 55 or 100 ga insulated before the blower exchanger line.
I guess I could add a bypass, so if it doesn't help I can by pass it.

thanks
I wonder if anybody here has done it.



Adding water capacity does not affect your BTUs/hr output; that is determined by how big your boiler is (firebox, fire wood size, etc).  You can only put a set amount fo BTUs into the system, based on OWB boiler sizing.

**All a buffer tank or Hydronic Seperator do is to help elimate the extreme temperature swings (up or down) in a system, not add BTU/hr capacity


ALSO REMEMEBER, that by adding water volume; YES you adding more hot water to the system, but when that water cools off you just have that much more water to heat back.  :-\  Which may or may not extend your calls for heat and reduce the reaction time of your system.
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dukethebeagle

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 07:11:52 PM »

little john is right.i added a 275 fuel oil tank to my system and it really helps on the temp swings.
but storing  btus is iffy.maybe if you had say 1000 to 1500 gallons and those tanks gotta be real insulated.
you have to consider heat losses from circulation and at the tank and the boiler.
in my experience,the bigger the tank the more insulated it has to be,if not what heat you try
to store is really lost throughout the system and not dirrectly put into heat in the house
i put one in to do exactly as littlejohn said control swings.
although,if you have a regular schedule,it will help as you total water cools less quickly when there is a
demand for heat because of total volume.
i have learned the key is to be consistant with firing
sometimes i like to batch type burn like this especially with "*&! wood. gets more heat out of it
or so it seems.go for it.worked for me
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JDfarmer

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2014, 02:08:53 PM »

I think I just need a buffer tank in the basement before the hot water goes to the exchanger; to reduce the temp swings. What tank would you use?
house 4000+sqft, NCB-250 Coal. My boiler seems plenty big to heat the 250ga water. Would you use just a regular domestic water tank? I think the biggest one is around 100ga only. Or how big of a tank would you use?
thanks


Adding water capacity does not affect your BTUs/hr output; that is determined by how big your boiler is (firebox, fire wood size, etc).  You can only put a set amount fo BTUs into the system, based on OWB boiler sizing.

**All a buffer tank or Hydronic Seperator do is to help elimate the extreme temperature swings (up or down) in a system, not add BTU/hr capacity


ALSO REMEMEBER, that by adding water volume; YES you adding more hot water to the system, but when that water cools off you just have that much more water to heat back.  :-\  Which may or may not extend your calls for heat and reduce the reaction time of your system.
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dukethebeagle

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2014, 04:22:05 PM »

european style boilers use huge tanks they load up with heat kind of like a batch burner.
imo 50 gallons is not enough,but i have 275 and for my boiler it kind of big``ìmo``again
in the 100 to 200 range seems not bad.my dad installed 200 on his boiler and recovery times are good
and temp swings are alot less wild.
also a semi nude tank makes one heck of a radiator if you got a cold basement.
don`t forget if the basement is cold,the whole house is cold
alot of people are not keen about external tanks on this site for there own reasons,but i have had good luck with mine.
the europeans are way ahead of us when it comes to wood boiler heating and i feel there ways are good examples to follow
just my opinion again
        good luck 
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JDfarmer

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2014, 04:54:47 PM »

Hahha, funny about Europe. I grew up in eastern Europa. We had a boiler but it was much bigger like you said than when I have now. I think these OWB are too small. Our's were more like the Garn units. You just lit it every two days. It held about 2000ga water and stored a lot of heat. They were coal and wood fuel.
My NCB 250 coal is "rated" for 6000sqft, our house is 4000sqft. I have 0F drop from the OWB to the house; the line is well insulated the ditch is 6 1/2 foot deep.
However, when my blower runs, my water temp drops a lot. Pretty big swings. So, I was thinking to instal the tank in the basement like you said. I figured my central heat blower runs about 10 min avg; the water pump is 20 gpm on high; so in one heat cycle about the entire boiler water is circulated, and the boiler water temp drops about 10+F. So, if I could add 100-200ga like you said, may be I could prevent the swings being so bad.
Otherwise my boiler has been working great for 3 seasons now.
I'll try to get a tank around 150-200. May be a domestic water heater tank.
What kind of tank did you use? I wonder what else could I use other than a water heater tank? would a new oil storage tank work?
Like this;
http://www.uniquetruck.com/p-28285-roth-eco-double-wall-tank-165-gallon.aspx
 
thanks

european style boilers use huge tanks they load up with heat kind of like a batch burner.
imo 50 gallons is not enough,but i have 275 and for my boiler it kind of big``ìmo``again
in the 100 to 200 range seems not bad.my dad installed 200 on his boiler and recovery times are good
and temp swings are alot less wild.
also a semi nude tank makes one heck of a radiator if you got a cold basement.
don`t forget if the basement is cold,the whole house is cold
alot of people are not keen about external tanks on this site for there own reasons,but i have had good luck with mine.
the europeans are way ahead of us when it comes to wood boiler heating and i feel there ways are good examples to follow
just my opinion again
        good luck
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dukethebeagle

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Re: Adding water capacity with an external tank
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2014, 07:03:20 AM »

i used a 275 gallon oil tank the kind they use on oil furnace systems.
the one i have is not super thick so i think i might change it for a thicker one next year.
some 200 gallon furnace oil tanks are 3-16 thick.thats not bad.
you can pick up real good ones for like 20.00 dollars at a junk yard.check the expirey date on it
alot are discarded because over so many years old they are not covered by insuance companys.
mine is like 10 years old but is like new.
all you have to do is insulate it and voila!!!!!!
i would add more gallonage but my firebox just isn`t big enough to support the amount
of water to keep warm
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