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Author Topic: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps  (Read 6290 times)

mfrankm

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E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« on: October 18, 2014, 08:50:14 AM »

Hello all. New 1450 up and running a couple of days ago (thanks btw for your help a couple of months ago, went with the gasser after all). Still learning how to run this thing. I can't find anywhere in the manual that gives recommended ranges of temps, for instance while in idle mode.

I can get it pretty hot (1100-1200 max so far in stage 3), and it brings the water up to temp quickly. My heat load is radiant slab and DHW, so the heat load is heavy for awhile then draws nothing for several hours. During that time, water temp stays pretty constant around 185 and the unit is idling. Eventually the reaction chamber temp drops into the 190s, and it seems around there I start to loose my coals. Pulsing for 50 secs every 30 mins was only bringing reaction chamber temp up to 200-210 for a brief period, then it would quickly drop to the 190s again.

The first night I woke up at 4am and the water temp was 183, reaction chamber 183. The fire was out. I played with it all day trying to get a better coal bed established, running heat through the slab with the windows open just to make a heavier load. I changed the pluse to every 15mins and still I slowly lost the fire over the course of idling/pulsing for several hours. Last night I changed the pulse to every 11 mins, the reaction chamber stayed at 190 and there was just enough ember in the very center this morning to get it fired back up but barely, most of the coals had again gone out. Better, but still not there. And I would like it to pulse less frequently if possible.

What are your reaction chamber temperatures while in idle/pulse mode? I'm trying to get a feel for what idle temps indicate a good coal bed that will say lit through the night even if there is no demand and it never goes into a burn cycle.

Any other suggestions for me on keeping a good bed of coals while idling for long periods of time? Maybe I don't have enough coals to begin with?

Given my demand is so low (small, very well insulated house), I expect to not burn much wood unless it gets really cold. I am at the lower end the 1450's output range without question (but they don't make a smaller one). Manual says to only add enough wood for 12 hours or so, till next load. (Would be great if I could load every 24 instead of every 12 hrs). Granted the temps are still pretty warm outside but for me that seems like about 6-8 sticks at most, not a big box full.

I know this has an effect on the way it burns, any experienced advice would be most welcome. Thanks again for all your knowledge and support!
-Frank
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PapaTango

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2014, 09:24:39 PM »

I also have an e1450 and have been keeping it running since June. Not much demand other than dhw over the summer. I set my idle pulse time to kick on for 60 seconds every 10 minutes. The fire has not gone out yet and during the summer I was getting 24 hour burn times. Now with cooler weather and the heat on I load for 12 hour burns. I would test some shorter pulse times and the goal is to just keep it burning. Once the demand is there your reaction chamber will heat up just fine to get back to your high set point. I've left mine at 185 and the low end at 175.  I wouldn't be concerned at all about reaction chamber temp while the thing is in idle mode. It doesn't have enough time to heat up while pulsing. Hope this helps a little.

Also make sure you clean out the ash from the reaction chamber. I do it about every 3-4 days and keep your primary air holes clean.  I've been giving mine a thorough cleaning every 2 weeks. 
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Roger2561

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 04:22:03 AM »

mfrankm - Welcome to the forum.  You'll find a wealth of information in here and some of the most knowledgeable and nice folks who will offer their expertise fee of charge. 

I do not have the E1450, I have the E1400.  But, their operation is very similar.  I'll be going on my 4th season with mine.  I believe you may have to reset your pulse differential.  My pulse is 50 seconds every 8 minutes and I have never lost the fire due to idle.  The only times I have lost the fire is due to too long of a pulse time when I first purchased it(you'll have to fiddle with yours until you find what works best in your application), bridging, inattentiveness on my part (not clearing the primary air holes good enough) and the primary solenoid failed to open due to the mild steel nut and bolt connecting the plate to solenoid lift arm corroded (I have since then replaced the mild steel plate and nut and bolt with stainless steel).  PapaTango makes some great recommendations of making sure the primary air hole remain clear of creosote build up and a clean reaction chamber.  Be careful when clearing the reaction chamber that you not hit the heat probe(thermocouple) sticking into it.  It should be located by the clean out door near the top and it is approx. 1.5" to 2" long and fragile.  I clear the reaction chamber of ash buildup once a week and service the primary air holes every 2 weeks.  One recommendation - if CB hasn't done it yet, change the primary solenoid plate, nut and bolt to stainless steel.  When the nut and bolt holding the plate to the solenoid arm corroded away I too the time to look over the flat plate and it had corroded to less than half it's thickness.  I doubt it would have gone another season before corroding all the way through so I made my own with stainless steel.  It should last a lot longer.  Please do not hesitate to post if you have any other questions or concerns.  Someone will do their best to help you out.  Roger     
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UPSGuy03

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 06:53:27 AM »

Hi and Welcome ! I am very new as well been up and running with a E1450 only since sept. I have finally found a setting configuration that is working for us here in North Jersey .. Not that cold out yet so not much of a demand on the unit right now but i have my water at 190/180 with a pulse every 10 min for 120 seconds. i know the manual doesnt say u can do it but u can . So far havent lost a fire except for a shutdown a few weeks ago to chase down a whole different problem. i am still learning myself so take the advice here from these guys . best and most informative site out there. i had left a different one for being ridiculed for a asking a question. These guys are very smart and know their stuff!
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mfrankm

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 07:16:28 AM »

Great stuff guys thank you. Sounds like I am on the right track, currently pulsing every 11 mins for 50 sec (according to the manual that is the longest setting for length of air pulse). I will try to up it to 60 if possible. And I guess bring the frequency of pulse down to 8 or 9 minutes. (As I was writing this post UPSGuy03 posted that you can pulse for 120 secs! That may be my answer right there. Thanks!)

You are correct, once there is demand and a full burn cycle begins (if there are any coals at all), the boiler quickly gets the reaction chamber up to temp and heats the water to setpoint no problem. However, I am still curious about what your reaction chamber temps are during idle mode and after a pulse just as a reference point.

The reason is that I am watching Firestar XP on the computer and can tell what's happening to the fire during long idle periods by looking at that temp. Example:

10/19/2014 4:38:57 AM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   184.2°F   184°F   1h 1m   
10/19/2014 4:38:03 AM EST   Pulse   Low   On   Off   Off   On   183.9°F   183°F   1h   
10/19/2014 4:36:20 AM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   184.2°F   183°F   1h   

From that you can see a pulse happened, and it brought the reaction chamber up 1 degree. That tells me at least there is a little bit of fire in there that got stoked when the air hit it, if only a small amount. In theory, if there were demand, the boiler would be able to get up to temp by keeping the air going.

Now here's the next pulse:
10/19/2014 4:54:45 AM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   183.7°F   183°F   1h 2m   
10/19/2014 4:53:55 AM EST   Pulse   Low   On   Off   Off   On   183.3°F   183°F   1h 1m   
10/19/2014 4:46:28 AM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   184°F   183°F   1h 1m

Reaction chamber temp stayed the same, but the water temp rose .4 degrees so again there is reason to believe the pulse of air did something.

Less than an hour later:
10/19/2014 5:42:28 AM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   182.1°F   181°F   1h 4m   
10/19/2014 5:41:36 AM EST   Pulse   Low   On   Off   Off   On   182.3°F   181°F   1h 3m   
10/19/2014 5:37:29 AM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   182.3°F   181°F   1h 3m   

You can see a pulse happened, but both temps dropped. This is when I believe I have lost the coals. From there both temps steadily drop together. At that point the water is keeping the reaction chamber hot, not the fire.

For comparison, here's a pulse from earlier in the night wen all the temps are higher and I think working a little better:
10/18/2014 11:21:15 PM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   191.4°F   211°F   44m   
10/18/2014 11:20:30 PM EST   Pulse   Low   On   Off   Off   On   191.3°F   202°F   43m   
10/18/2014 11:10:14 PM EST   Idle   Idle   Off   Off   Off   Off   191.8°F   205°F   43m

So this is why I am curious about others' reaction chamber temps during idle. Even though it is somewhat arbitrary, it is an indication of what the coals are doing during idle mode. Do your reaction chamber temsp stay in the 200s throughout idle/pulse mode? Ever see 190s or 180s? (Anyone care to post a clip from their Firestar XP log showing some idle/pulse time?)

I went out there at 7 and lit it back up, turned on the demand in the house and we're rolling again. Another suspicion I have is that my coal bed is not full enough, meaning it is good in the middle but the coals around the perimeter of the firebox floor are never getting hot. Seems all the airflow is in the center around the charge tube and there's not much action around the edges. Any tips for getting a nice, even fire that fills the whole box?

Thank you guys very much. This forum is great I have learned so much reading old threads. Really looking forward to this heating season.
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PapaTango

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 08:02:43 PM »

You are on the right track.  Try and make it pulse more frequent and longer. You are correct that it can be set to more than 50 seconds.  Like yours I get reaction chamber temps very close to the same temp as my water temp when it is in idle mode.  Most of my constant glowing coals are near the center near the charge tube.  I have only witnessed an even bed of glowing coals across the whole bottom when it had been in high demand over night.  I think you will see that it will become like that as it gets colder and the demand is there.

I might check back with you later to see how you like the Firestar XP.  I'm interested in hooking that up to mine later this winter. 
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mfrankm

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 06:47:59 AM »

Great success! I love this thing. My wife is laughing at me because she says I am like a child with a toy, checking the temps constantly and getting giddy when it works properly.

Thank you PapaTango, it is so helpful to hear what your boiler is doing. Great to know your reaction chamber temps get down around water temps too, I was thinking that was a problem but I guess its is not. Again, your experience is invaluable re-assurance that things are working properly. I'm sure once the weather gets colder and demand goes up these "idle problems" (lol) will subside.

I discovered that I had inadvertently upped the temperature delta from 10 to 12 degrees, so I moved it back to 10. Now the boiler kicks on at 175 and not 173. 185 setpoint, so that and the delta are factory settings.

I upped the pulse of air from 50 secs to 75 secs, and left the pulse frequency at 15 minutes.

To build better coals, I ran the heat demand hard during the day yesterday and then stopped it about 4:30pm. At 6:30 I opened the firebox, spread the coals evenly, and loaded more wood. Temps stayed hotter and I could tell the coals were better than before. Still, by 9:30pm the reaction chamber temps were getting down to 198, then up to 210 after a pulse. That seems ideal if it would keep doing that all night. But it slowly dropped lower and lower.

This morning I was sure the fire was out again, RC temp was in the mid-170s along with the water and the RC even dropped a couple of degrees when it first kicked on the blower. But there must have been coals because it fired all the way and heated the water back up without intervention.

So the slight increase in coal amount and quality, combined with a 75 sec pulse every 15 minutes did the trick (at least this time). The boiler stayed idle for over 12 hours and then fired right back to full temp, water from 172.5 to 185 in about 11 minutes. With no demand, the water temp keeps climbing too. Currently at 191.4.

I'm gonna turn on the demand again and let the temp come back down, then power off firestar and to the first cleaning of the reaction chamber, scrape the firebox, air holes, and door, check the chimney, and clean the heat exchangers. Wonder if I'm forgetting anything. Seems to soon to check the solenoid elbow, only been burning for 4 days. Any maintenance suggestions now that it's a few days broken in?

Firestar XP was a bit of a pain to install because my dealer did not steer me just right on a couple of things (he had only installed it once awhile ago and could not remember what wire gauge to use, how to provide power, really anything about it). He told me to use Cat5 in the ditch, that's all I would need (not entirely true). I made the Cat5 work by pairing the individual wires into groups. Really you just need some normal stranded black/white wire, 14-18 gauge will probably do. The knockout on the air box that CB provides is too small for the grommet, boring it out without making a mess was a PITA. ("I paid how much $ to be doing THIS?") But all in all it wasn't too bad. Luckily inside the house I was near the service panel and was able to cut into my OWB electrical circuit and splice a power supply for Firestar XP. Now that it is up and running though I am very glad I have it. Love being able to see exactly what had happened overnight, during burns, during idle/pulse, etc. More information to geek out on.

I'm sure you can tell how I like more info from how long-winded I am, sorry about that BTW! Thanks for sticking with me.
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LittleJohn

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 07:56:46 AM »

mfrankm, not sure if this helps -> cause shoulder season is hardest time to keep a OWB going.  Last weekend, overnight temps were 40F and daytime highs were 70F

I have a eClassic 2400, but here is how I run during shoulder season.  Will light a good/decent sized fire in morning depending on what forcast is; then I will let the fire go out I can still pull heat from OWB, as long as return temps are above 145F (due to thermostatic bypass CB requires/recommends).  Since I am running mostly inslab application I mix down water temps anyway, so even with 150f supply water I can still pull BTUs from boiler.

I am less concerned with keeping a fire lit, then with keeping the wife happy  ^-^ :thumbup:
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mfrankm

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 05:34:04 PM »

That does help LittleJohn, very much. We are also seeing low 40 and high of mid 60s.

I had considered using the 1450 that way, just heating the water once a day or so, but for some reason I thought it was bad to start and stop the boiler a lot. Do you actually turn off the firestar controller?

I hear you about mixing down the water temps before running through the slab. I'm getting great transfer from the 40 plate. Certainly don't need 185 degree water all day. What you're doing would probably work well for me too. I know the manual says to keep the setpoint at 185 but still not completely sure about why....?

I'm also just a bit excited and trying to see what this thing will do. If the weather stays this warm I'll start burning much less.

This is the first time in our lives that my wife has had a really warm house, she's thrilled. You're right, that's the most important part!
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PapaTango

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2014, 06:42:24 PM »

Mfrankm,

Too funny. I feel the same way. This thing is awesome and I couldn't be happier. After last winter and 3.95 a gallon propane fill ups, I had enough. Should've done it years ago and my wife is happy. We have had the same temps in Michigan recently and my wife loves it set at 72 degrees in the house.  I might have to crack a window open in the winter. My wife asks me if I'm talking to my friends again online. I can't stop laughing as this is the first time I've posted on a forum, but the information I've read in these posts are invaluable.

I think you have the list of cleaning chores spot on and I do the same every two weeks. I clean out the selenoid every month or give it a check atleast. Has not been bad so far.

Take care and happy burning. PapaTango
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LittleJohn

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2014, 06:27:01 AM »

...in regards to water temperature, and mixing down.  I mix down with a mechanical mixing valve, with ourdoor reset (versus a thermostatic) after the FPHX and before it goes into the slab.

Generally OWB want your return water temperatures to be above 140f, because it can cause condensation/creosote (and ultimately RUST).  They also want you to run at around 180f for safety/efficiency of the unit.  I say safety because even if your aquastat is at 180 other parts of boiler could potentially be hotter, and we all shoudl know what heppens when water gets close to 212F  ;).  Now for effieciency, it is easier to pull heat from hotter water, the larger the Delta T the easier heat will transfer.

***I have heard that others run there stoves hotter, than 180F, and play with the delta on the controller.  You pretty much have to do a little trial and error, with firing your stove to see what works best for you.  In the shoulder seasons I like to batch burn and when she gets cold, I fire light during the day and heavy in the evening (cause I ain't getting out of bed at 4am to FIRE).
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sam-tip

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Re: E-Classic owners, let's talk temps
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 07:48:42 PM »

The type of wood also makes a difference.  All soft wood will burn hotter but will burn out quick.   But all hard wood will smoke a bit.  Mix in some hard woods to keep from getting the FO  alarm.  Fire out.  With a good mix of wood I can go 1 hour with a 4 minute pulse all summer long.
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