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Author Topic: Heat distribution  (Read 4937 times)

Farmer Rob

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Heat distribution
« on: January 22, 2018, 01:00:42 PM »

Hello group question about how the heat is spread throughout the house. Who has it hooked up to there forced air furnace and how does that workout,also approx cost for that piece for furnace and also for water heater.
 
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wreckit87

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2018, 04:07:11 PM »

I have it setup with an exchanger for my domestic water and another exchanger above my furnace, if that's what you are asking? It works very well for me. The exchanger for the furnace is usually $100-200 depending on the size of your plenum and heating needs, and a plate heat exchanger for the domestic water is usually in the same range, again depending on your needs. Sidearm exchangers are another option and the copper ones are a bit cheaper, while the stainless ones are in the same range as the plates. I prefer a plate myself, as it's more instantaneous while a sidearm isn't so quick to recover
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Farmer Rob

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 06:06:31 PM »

Thank you and yes that is what I was asking about and I am glad you like them and the cost is not bad. Do you have that insulated Pex pipe run real close to the unit before removing the foam insulation or does that end fairly soon after it enters the house
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mlappin

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2018, 06:10:45 PM »

Heat loss in the living quarters isn’t really lost heat, so insulation is removed once its thru the wall. Normally you’ll buy just enough insulated pipe to get from the stove thru the basement wall then you can use regular pex or copper.
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E Yoder

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2018, 06:49:33 PM »

Down here where we get occasional mild winter days I'm pretty careful to insulate any continuous circulating piping as the slow trickle of heat can really be anoying and hard to control house temps. Start-stop loops don't matter so much.
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juddspaintballs

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2018, 07:58:35 PM »

Quality underground insulated pipe is expensive.  So ending that as soon as it enters the house is smart unless you have a lot of money.  You can wrap the PEX in the house relatively cheaply because you're not fighting water intrusion inside. 
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wreckit87

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 08:57:24 PM »

Thank you and yes that is what I was asking about and I am glad you like them and the cost is not bad. Do you have that insulated Pex pipe run real close to the unit before removing the foam insulation or does that end fairly soon after it enters the house

My underground pipe ends as it enters the house. I do a fair amount of installs for customers and the same applies with all of those as well, maybe a few feet remains if it comes through the floor. My run to the furnace is about 40 feet each way uninsulated after it comes into the house and again, most installs are uninsulated in that space also. As was pointed out, that "lost" heat from the exposed piping isn't really lost if you can utilize it to heat the building. One can pick up those 3-6 foot pieces of foam insulation from Menards or wherever to wrap the exposed lines if it is a problem and they do pretty well. There is a looser, plastic type foam and a dense rubber foam that both work. The rubber type is more expensive but insulates better. My lines run across the South side of the house and that, coupled with the solar gain from the sun on the South side, can make the South half of the house rather warm on warm days but not enough to bother me to insulate them. Personal preference, really. My boiler has only about 10 feet each way to my shop wall which I ran in regular 1" PEX and covered with the aforementioned rubber wrap and the heat loss is unnoticeable off the pipe. Snow will sit on it all day if I let it
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mlappin

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2018, 09:19:54 PM »

I actually ran all copper in the basement just to gain some heat. If it does get too warm the wife doesn’t mind windows and airing the house out, I make a mean chili.
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E Yoder

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2018, 12:45:11 PM »

Would depend to if you run during the summer for domestic water. Don't want to fight the AC. I almost always insulate the primary loop in some fashion so they can run in the summer if desired, but yeah, it's personal preference.
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Farmer Rob

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2018, 03:08:29 PM »

Thank you and yes that is what I was asking about and I am glad you like them and the cost is not bad. Do you have that insulated Pex pipe run real close to the unit before removing the foam insulation or does that end fairly soon after it enters the house

My underground pipe ends as it enters the house. I do a fair amount of installs for customers and the same applies with all of those as well, maybe a few feet remains if it comes through the floor. My run to the furnace is about 40 feet each way uninsulated after it comes into the house and again, most installs are uninsulated in that space also. As was pointed out, that "lost" heat from the exposed piping isn't really lost if you can utilize it to heat the building. One can pick up those 3-6 foot pieces of foam insulation from Menards or wherever to wrap the exposed lines if it is a problem and they do pretty well. There is a looser, plastic type foam and a dense rubber foam that both work. The rubber type is more expensive but insulates better. My lines run across the South side of the house and that, coupled with the solar gain from the sun on the South side, can make the South half of the house rather warm on warm days but not enough to bother me to insulate them. Personal preference, really. My boiler has only about 10 feet each way to my shop wall which I ran in regular 1" PEX and covered with the aforementioned rubber wrap and the heat loss is unnoticeable off the pipe. Snow will sit on it all day if I let it
Thank you for that information.Since you do installs where them temps are about the same as here I have heard it best to keep the Pex tubing shallow if there is alot of ground water issues. Ever hear that? I also read to put 2"blue board(insulation) on top if shallow?
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wreckit87

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2018, 04:19:26 PM »

Thank you and yes that is what I was asking about and I am glad you like them and the cost is not bad. Do you have that insulated Pex pipe run real close to the unit before removing the foam insulation or does that end fairly soon after it enters the house

My underground pipe ends as it enters the house. I do a fair amount of installs for customers and the same applies with all of those as well, maybe a few feet remains if it comes through the floor. My run to the furnace is about 40 feet each way uninsulated after it comes into the house and again, most installs are uninsulated in that space also. As was pointed out, that "lost" heat from the exposed piping isn't really lost if you can utilize it to heat the building. One can pick up those 3-6 foot pieces of foam insulation from Menards or wherever to wrap the exposed lines if it is a problem and they do pretty well. There is a looser, plastic type foam and a dense rubber foam that both work. The rubber type is more expensive but insulates better. My lines run across the South side of the house and that, coupled with the solar gain from the sun on the South side, can make the South half of the house rather warm on warm days but not enough to bother me to insulate them. Personal preference, really. My boiler has only about 10 feet each way to my shop wall which I ran in regular 1" PEX and covered with the aforementioned rubber wrap and the heat loss is unnoticeable off the pipe. Snow will sit on it all day if I let it
Thank you for that information.Since you do installs where them temps are about the same as here I have heard it best to keep the Pex tubing shallow if there is alot of ground water issues. Ever hear that? I also read to put 2"blue board(insulation) on top if shallow?

What kind of underground will you be using? Shallow seems to be best unless you have very heavy traffic over the line, maybe under a driveway or something. The corrugated drain tile stuff with the wrapped insulation does tend to find water at some point or another unfortunately, so we commonly refer to that as "do over pipe" as it usually needs replacing after a short life span due to water infiltration. The Z Supply double wall stuff seems to be a pretty good product (never used it myself) but is in the same price range as 1" Rehau or Thermopex foamed pipe. I always bury that 18-24" down unless the ends need to come up through a slab, they have a rather long bend radius so they usually get to 4-5 feet at the end. Mine under my driveway is 18" deep only and I drive loaded semi trucks over it without any disfigurement. Dug it up once to lay geotextile fabric down to harden up my driveway a bit in spring and was bouncing over it with the Bobcat all day, again no issues. That is 32mm Logstor brand which is the same size as 1-1/4" Rehau with a full 1" inside diameter vs 7/8" ID for the 1" PEX lines. Depends on your heat load, but if you can get away with 1" I would forget all about the wrap style and invest in a quality foamed underground like Thermopex or Rehau so you only need to do it once. Some do recommend keeping it deep, below the frost line, but I myself haven't found any benefit to it. There will almost always be more water down there than at the surface, and a pipe submerged in 55 degree water is still going to lose more heat than a pipe encased in 0 degree dry dirt the way I see it.
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mlappin

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 04:41:15 PM »

All burying deep does is hide the heat loss. All pipe loses some heat no matter the cost since the perfect insulation doesn’t exist
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Farmer Rob

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2018, 04:46:50 PM »

Thank you and yes that is what I was asking about and I am glad you like them and the cost is not bad. Do you have that insulated Pex pipe run real close to the unit before removing the foam insulation or does that end fairly soon after it enters the house

My underground pipe ends as it enters the house. I do a fair amount of installs for customers and the same applies with all of those as well, maybe a few feet remains if it comes through the floor. My run to the furnace is about 40 feet each way uninsulated after it comes into the house and again, most installs are uninsulated in that space also. As was pointed out, that "lost" heat from the exposed piping isn't really lost if you can utilize it to heat the building. One can pick up those 3-6 foot pieces of foam insulation from Menards or wherever to wrap the exposed lines if it is a problem and they do pretty well. There is a looser, plastic type foam and a dense rubber foam that both work. The rubber type is more expensive but insulates better. My lines run across the South side of the house and that, coupled with the solar gain from the sun on the South side, can make the South half of the house rather warm on warm days but not enough to bother me to insulate them. Personal preference, really. My boiler has only about 10 feet each way to my shop wall which I ran in regular 1" PEX and covered with the aforementioned rubber wrap and the heat loss is unnoticeable off the pipe. Snow will sit on it all day if I let it
Thank you for that information.Since you do installs where them temps are about the same as here I have heard it best to keep the Pex tubing shallow if there is alot of ground water issues. Ever hear that? I also read to put 2"blue board(insulation) on top if shallow?

What kind of underground will you be using? Shallow seems to be best unless you have very heavy traffic over the line, maybe under a driveway or something. The corrugated drain tile stuff with the wrapped insulation does tend to find water at some point or another unfortunately, so we commonly refer to that as "do over pipe" as it usually needs replacing after a short life span due to water infiltration. The Z Supply double wall stuff seems to be a pretty good product (never used it myself) but is in the same price range as 1" Rehau or Thermopex foamed pipe. I always bury that 18-24" down unless the ends need to come up through a slab, they have a rather long bend radius so they usually get to 4-5 feet at the end. Mine under my driveway is 18" deep only and I drive loaded semi trucks over it without any disfigurement. Dug it up once to lay geotextile fabric down to harden up my driveway a bit in spring and was bouncing over it with the Bobcat all day, again no issues. That is 32mm Logstor brand which is the same size as 1-1/4" Rehau with a full 1" inside diameter vs 7/8" ID for the 1" PEX lines. Depends on your heat load, but if you can get away with 1" I would forget all about the wrap style and invest in a quality foamed underground like Thermopex or Rehau so you only need to do it once. Some do recommend keeping it deep, below the frost line, but I myself haven't found any benefit to it. There will almost always be more water down there than at the surface, and a pipe submerged in 55 degree water is still going to lose more heat than a pipe encased in 0 degree dry dirt the way I see it.
Again thanks and I do plan on using the Logstor Brand. On a side note you have a Heat master unit correct? I want to install my unit into my drive shed so I can stay out of the snow blowing and cold temps while filling the unit ,do you see any down side to that?
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wreckit87

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2018, 07:38:56 PM »

I see no downfall Rob, I have mine inside as well. It does smoke out the door at certain parts of the cycle which can be a bother. I built a hood over mine with a cheap inline fan that didn't work well at all. Currently have a big squirrel cage sitting on the shelf awaiting time and ambition to build a proper hood. Aside from the smoke I love it inside
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E Yoder

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Re: Heat distribution
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2018, 02:19:15 AM »

Indoor installs obviously require some common sense fire safety practices, not everyone seems to get it, I  cringe at some of the wood sheds I see with fuel cans, dry dust and debris etc.
The G series is UL rated for indoor, GS and C are not in case your insurance cares.
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