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Author Topic: Real head scratcher  (Read 4610 times)

mlappin

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Real head scratcher
« on: September 06, 2017, 08:43:27 PM »

So sold a G100 to a guy to replace his 16-17 year old Woodmaster, no problems there, he sold his old Woodmaster to a kid for a $1000 bucks. I’ve talked to the guy numerous times, been by his house and seen all of his vehicles, everything is meticulously maintained. Only issue I seen with the Woodmaster is needs  a new door seal.

So, my uncle happened to be at the guys house that bought the Woodmaster, they had talked to me before about hooking it up. Phil was replacing the septic line from the house to the tank as it was orange burg pipe and was clogged with tree roots.

Soon as I pulled in regretted to dealing with this, house has the old thick fieldstone basement walls, one wall in the basement has been replaced with block from tree roots pushing on it, that is inaccessible as it has porch on the outside. Ground is so hard and dry Phil was about standing the mini on it’s nose trying to dig, so no way am I hand digging under the porch to run the pipe. Only other accessible wall is thru the crawl space of course. So looks like I’ll be breaking the new diamond coring bit out for this one.

Now for the real issue, basement is low, real low, even with only reaching the standard Lappin height of 5’9” I still whacked my head a few times on the floor joists. They just had room to get the A coil in above the furnace, then to top it off looks like they connected the A coil then ran the return duct as there is exactly zero room to work. The guy I’ve been talking to has several rental homes as well and their HVAC guy already has em dead set against a HX in the return, and the way thats set up won’t be easy either unless I literally mount it in the furnace cabinet.

So back to doing several smaller HX’s in the trunk lines, except even those are a cluster f*ck. One 8x18 trunk heading east, one 8”x8” heading north then three 6” rounds heading west and south. The three rounds are attached directly to the main that houses the A coil. Actually found a 8”x8”, so thats not an issue. No such thing as a 8”x18”. So will have to cut the duct out on two sides, fit a 12x18 then blank in around whats not in the duct. For the 3 rounds I figure to build another 8x18 trunk line, get it the required distance from the A coil then hook the rounds back in and blank another 12”x18” HX in so both large trunks are the same.

Now for the fun part, figured to use a mono flo T to split off to the large HX’s. After that I’m not sure whether to bring both returns back together, then use another mono flo T to feed the  8”x8” HX. The other thing I figured to do first is to see how many 6” rounds come off the 8x18 trunk, if it’s more then I might just take the return from the HX feeding the three 6” ducts and run that to the 8x8 HX since it won’t have the airflow thru it that the other has.

My sense of direction didn’t fail me though. Owner of the place wasn’t even sure what wall we were looking at once in the basement. I knew even in a strange basement where north was. I told him think about it this way, we came in the side door, walked thru the living room,  turned right into the kitchen, turned right into the hallway, turned right to the basement stairs, turned right again once in the basement, so there for we were facing the same direction we started.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 05:53:30 AM by mlappin »
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E Yoder

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 02:29:06 AM »

I'd like to see a picture! That's a lot of coils... Wow .
But those are the ones that feel good when you get done, and the customer will be super pleased.

I saw orange burg pipe for the first time last year. Didn't know they tried to use tar paper to run sewer lines with!
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shepherd boy

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2017, 03:08:39 AM »

 Looked at one yesterday, similar but not as bad. homeowner had already speculated we would need to put in another blower cabinet and shoot it in the existing one and block the return of the old unit when using the outdoor unit. I think we found a different way, but have done that as an option. Looks like you'll be earning your money on this one, but your used to that since your a farmer.
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Smokeless

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 04:46:48 AM »

That's a lot of work to do. If possible I would set up radiant floor heat.
And forget about the hot air coils. To much going on there.
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mlappin

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 05:51:04 AM »

That's a lot of work to do. If possible I would set up radiant floor heat.
And forget about the hot air coils. To much going on there.

I’ve been thinking about that, but a lot of work as well for access to the second story.

Young couple, new baby, momma or baby has had some health issues so momma hasn’t been able to go back to work, they really can’t afford this either but they definitely can’t afford LP either especially if it turns into a rough winter.

I have some stuff I’ve been using for display purposes I’m letting them have at cost, like a flat plate already plumbed up with flushing valves, and an aqua stat.

My uncle was already there fixing the sewer line so no charge for the extra trench.
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mlappin

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 05:56:27 AM »

Looked at one yesterday, similar but not as bad. homeowner had already speculated we would need to put in another blower cabinet and shoot it in the existing one and block the return of the old unit when using the outdoor unit. I think we found a different way, but have done that as an option. Looks like you'll be earning your money on this one, but your used to that since your a farmer.

I’ve thought of that as well, problem is only place to set a separate air handler, then you’ll be stepping over the cold air return or over the LP line to get to the original furnace for maintenance or to change the air filter.

I might get their HVAC guy out and see what he thinks bout a separate cabinet since he suggested the same, maybe he had a different plan on where to set it. From past experience back draft dampers aren’t cheap either.
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mlappin

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 06:34:55 AM »

I'd like to see a picture! That's a lot of coils... Wow .
But those are the ones that feel good when you get done, and the customer will be super pleased.

I saw orange burg pipe for the first time last year. Didn't know they tried to use tar paper to run sewer lines with!

You asked for it, now you got it.


IMG_2171 by Marty Lappin, on Flickr


IMG_2172 by Marty Lappin, on Flickr


IMG_2173 by Marty Lappin, on Flickr


IMG_2174 by Marty Lappin, on Flickr
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mlappin

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 06:48:08 AM »

Actually, the walls are in amazingly good shape. Most of the time around here either they leak, or get replaced from tree roots pushing on em. All the walls in our basement were originally fieldstone, all the external walls have been replaced by block with only a internal wall that separates the true basement from the crawlspace remaining.
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shepherd boy

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 01:18:36 PM »

  It looks to me like there should be room to lift the A-coil in that duck. Might be wrong, just looking where the ac lines come out of the duck. There again you are beholden to the hvac guy. If there is 4" clearance from the top of the a-coil to the top of duck we would push it up and put the water coil under.
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E Yoder

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2017, 04:33:48 PM »

What about the return duct? Maybe you said why you aren't looking at that and I missed it.
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mlappin

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2017, 05:52:59 PM »

What about the return duct? Maybe you said why you aren't looking at that and I missed it.

HVAC guy has owner deadset against using the return duct, also miss out on the ability to heat the boiler water if owner is gone for anytime.


  It looks to me like there should be room to lift the A-coil in that duck. Might be wrong, just looking where the ac lines come out of the duck. There again you are beholden to the hvac guy. If there is 4" clearance from the top of the a-coil to the top of duck we would push it up and put the water coil under.

I keep looking at it and looking at it, I just don’t think there is room to raise it, their HVAC guy who installed it said the same.



I’m seriously looking at placing an air handler on the other side of the furnace from the cold air return and pulling air across the lower cabinet and furnace fan to the air handler. Placing it on the north side places it on the same side as the LP line where you barely have room to walk anyways and leaves the south open to get to the furnace and filter. Also don’t need to install another filter rack.
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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2017, 09:48:01 AM »

Wonder why he is opposed to using the return... You might need to start and stop the water to avoid tripping the fan with coil heat.
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mlappin

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2017, 10:31:31 AM »

Wonder why he is opposed to using the return... You might need to start and stop the water to avoid tripping the fan with coil heat.

Probably worried about the longevity of the circuit board and transformer thats mounted right next to the fan. He was worried about over heating the blower motor if the aqua stat just kicked out and the furnace ran. Could always install a fan coil valve so its only open on a call for heat when the aqua stat trips to fan.

If possible I try to avoid using the return, like the option of using the furnace to heat the water if the owner leaves and whoever thy line up to fill the stove in their absence forgets. I’ve never figured it out, but I bet heating the house and boiler water with the furnace would really chew thru the LP.

Did a quote for last night for the guy who gonna add a kiln room someday, easy peasy, don’t even have central air, not sure if he’s gonna add it later or not. Had a fleeting thought of being a d*ck and installing the HX right in the middle of the plenum so the guy that might do the AC in the future is the one screwed. I’ll mount it as low as possible though, has a transition that goes from a 15x20 at the furnace to a 14x20 duct.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 10:38:23 AM by mlappin »
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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2017, 04:58:06 PM »

Even 65℉ return air aught to keep the outdoor furnace from freezing.

I've never had an issue with coils in returns. Do it all the time.
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mlappin

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Re: Real head scratcher
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2017, 09:37:54 PM »



I've never had an issue with coils in returns. Do it all the time.

Right, thats how I’ve been building my air handlers, blank what was the cold air intake off, cut a smaller hole, rotate the blower motor 90 degrees, mount the HX above that then a filter rack. Works much better blowing the warm across the floor instead of 3-5 foot off the floor.
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