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Author Topic: The new plan  (Read 6107 times)

nd guy

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The new plan
« on: February 10, 2018, 10:10:56 PM »

OK This summer the plan is to install ultra fins in the floor under my house and hook it into the wood boiler. I have been having problems with ultra clac. from ultra fin on figuring out how many fins I need. It's a double wide 28 x 56 built in 1997 with 2x8 floor joists 16 on center. Homark is the brand. My heat load near as I can figure is 600 to 700 gals. of propane a year to heat it to 70 degrees in North Dakota. I will be running 4 loops no longer then 300 ft each and the sub floor is 3/4 in. thick. How many fins do I need and what would be a good temp to run through them? 1/2 carpet 1/2 vinyl flooring. Will be doing DHW first with a flat plate and then the floor heat. Re Insulating the area under the ultra fins and then Tyvek the underside. Any thoughts on how to do this are appreciated. Thanks Ray
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wreckit87

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 06:52:42 AM »

Is there a basement under it or just the crawlspace? I have the same size and style house on a basement, the North half is always colder and I was looking into some underfloor radiant as well for the last few months. The Ultra-Fin, from what I understood, is typically sized for 1-on, 1-off in each joist space with 140 degree water. Like if the plates are 10" long, you'd space 10" without a plate and then add another plate, full length of each joist space. That's approximately $4k worth of Ultra-Fin to do your whole house, plus the PEX- are you only doing a certain section of the house or how are you getting away with 1200 ft of tubing?. I was using about double the propane you are, but again there's the basement if yours doesn't have one. Will you be adding a forced air coil under your furnace too, or relying solely on the radiant? I moved my furnace to the basement and put a hot water coil in, and have been heating that way for I think 7 years now, works very well aside from the fact that the North half is 5 degrees colder than the South half, this is in MN. Remember with the Ultra-Fin, it needs air space under the fin to the insulation, for convection to occur. I think I saw 2-4"?
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nd guy

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 09:14:32 AM »

No basement just insulated skirting. My idea is to do the one side that is mostly vinyl flooring and has the bathrooms on it. I was going to leave the furnace alone and just run it as a supplement to the floor heat. We have to lift the furnace to get enough room between it and the a/c coil. Not a big deal but extra cost. Plus the DHW is on one end of the house and the furnace is in the middle. Yes you need 2 in between the insulation and the ultra fin so I was going to add a 2x4 to the bottom of the joists (in the areas of the fins) to gain 3 1/2 in of space. Sounds a little redneck I know. LOL Then cover the entire bottom with Tyvek. The area I'm planning on doing is 13 ft wide by 45 ft long. Thanks for the reply wreckit87.

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wreckit87

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 01:33:10 PM »

2" foam insulation between the fin and the Tyvek or what? Also curious what else you're heating to have a Heatmor 400 but not heating the whole house with it. We have an HVAC guy locally here that will lift a furnace and slide a coil in for $200 I think. I wouldn't touch it for that, but he does lol. Have hired him a couple times for mobile home jobs.
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shepherd boy

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 02:13:03 PM »

 What kind of furnace? LP? We don't lift furnaces. Got a crossover line under furnace?
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nd guy

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2018, 04:17:30 PM »

Yes the furnace is propane. Have a friend who is a HVAC guy and he said 6 in lift on the furnace is not a problem. I am currently heating my shop with the Heatmor. Yes it is overkill for my needs but the price was right and it's in good condition. As I stated before I will add a 2x4 to the bottom of the 2x8 floor joists and keep the R-19 insulation. If it needs to be 2x6 for more air gap then I will go that route. Thanks Ray
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wreckit87

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2018, 04:26:59 PM »

Yes the furnace is propane. Have a friend who is a HVAC guy and he said 6 in lift on the furnace is not a problem. I am currently heating my shop with the Heatmor. Yes it is overkill for my needs but the price was right and it's in good condition. As I stated before I will add a 2x4 to the bottom of the 2x8 floor joists and keep the R-19 insulation. If it needs to be 2x6 for more air gap then I will go that route. Thanks Ray

Ohhhh I had a picture in my noggin of you just sammiching 2" foam under the joists with 2x4 strips perpendicular to the joists holding it up, was not picturing a new blanket. Gotcha!! Furnace coils are cheap, it sure is nice to be able to cut out the gas man completely  :)
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shepherd boy

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2018, 06:06:57 PM »

 I just try to do everything in house. Our way is to take the crossover pipe off and block the duck going both ways. Take a 12" flex into the end of a box that has a water to air coil in it. Reattach the crossover duck to the other end and then pull two 8" ducks from the sides of the box back up to each side of the blocked ducks. This backs the water coil away from the AC unit. and leaves the furnace in place. I just don't like fooling with gas lines and AC lines and maybe return air flow.
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nd guy

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2018, 08:17:01 PM »

Yes wreckit87 cutting the propane bill would be great!! Furnace coil is not out of the plan but won't cure the cold floor issue. LOL.
shepherd boy that is a great idea. Thanks.
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E Yoder

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 03:06:05 AM »

No basement just insulated skirting. My idea is to do the one side that is mostly vinyl flooring and has the bathrooms on it. I was going to leave the furnace alone and just run it as a supplement to the floor heat. We have to lift the furnace to get enough room between it and the a/c coil. Not a big deal but extra cost. Plus the DHW is on one end of the house and the furnace is in the middle. Yes you need 2 in between the insulation and the ultra fin so I was going to add a 2x4 to the bottom of the joists (in the areas of the fins) to gain 3 1/2 in of space. Sounds a little redneck I know. LOL Then cover the entire bottom with Tyvek. The area I'm planning on doing is 13 ft wide by 45 ft long. Thanks for the reply wreckit87.


Doing floor heat on just one side might make for some cold rooms on the other. I'm sure you'll figure it out. I had a similar issue in my house on the north side, cold floors. Added less than 200' of 1/2" pex under the floor and balanced it out. Grundfos 15-58 on low speed idling along. Blower still carries the main heat load.
Is there a restriction in ductwork causing ineven heat? I've seen a cross duct come loose or kinked over, all.kinds of things.
Side note, ever see what a cat does to flex duct? :)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 03:26:59 AM by E Yoder »
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wreckit87

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 07:05:12 AM »


[/quote]
Doing floor heat on just one side might make for some cold rooms on the other. I'm sure you'll figure it out. I had a similar issue in my house on the north side, cold floors. Added less than 200' of 1/2" pex under the floor and balanced it out. Grundfos 15-58 on low speed idling along. Blower still carries the main heat load.
Is there a restriction in ductwork causing ineven heat? I've seen a cross duct come loose or kinked over, all.kinds of things.
Side note, ever see what a cat does to flex duct? :)
[/quote]

Did you use transfer plates or anything when you did it? My cold spot is about 13x35 ft and I have a 200ft roll each of 5/8 and 3/4 pex leftover from jobs that I'm probably never going to use elsewhere, was thinking of just talon hanging one run in each joist space until I'm out of pipe and run a 15-58 on low from a wireless thermostat in the living room, feeding off the return line after my forced air HX with close tees. For whatever reason my crossovers are 4x10 rectangle off the top of the trunks, buried in the joist space so it's gotta go up out of the main trunk then back down to the second trunk on the north half, even with all the vents shut on the south half I still get no air in the NW bedroom or living room just East of it. Damn WalMart house lol
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E Yoder

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 02:14:58 PM »

No transfer plates, tube talons on the side of the joists near the top, about 160 F water, 1/2" pex, reflective bubble stapled up underneath to make a fairly tight hot air space. Approx. 70-80F surface temps on the hardwood floor above. Only one run per joist bay so its a bit uneven, but I don't care.
The hot air space spreads the heat out pretty good really. Does take about 160 F water but , hey, that's what I have anyway.
Double wides have some of the most restricted ductwork I've ever seen. Some are pretty much impossible to balance.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 02:21:44 PM by E Yoder »
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nd guy

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 03:28:46 PM »

E Yoder, my floor plan is very open and there is carpet in all the rooms expect where the floor heat is going. All the duct work is fine (thanks for the tip) but when you get a run of days below zero and I mean 20-30 below LOL the floor gets a little chilly even with insulated skirting. Plus this will be a great time to update all the plumbing.
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E Yoder

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2018, 04:28:29 PM »

Yeah, chilly... I can imagine! If you have the insulation down it would be interesting to see if there's air leakage coming in around the rim joists and blowing between the insulation and the floor..? I saw that once in an upstairs (Cape cod type house), the cold air made for some miserable floors.
Anyway, I'll bet you'll love your warm floors when you're done.
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nd guy

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Re: The new plan
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2018, 07:19:09 PM »

E Yoder, When the time comes I will look into air leaking. Thanks for the tip. Yes I hope my plan works as well as the wood stove does!!
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