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Author Topic: Having a major problem  (Read 9948 times)

Bluegrass Wood Burner

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Having a major problem
« on: January 17, 2018, 06:56:49 AM »

I had posted on the electronics section of this forums about the monitoring I'm doing with my meat probe thermometer. The findings have shocked me. When my boiler is in its burn cycle I'm getting 178 degree water at my heat exchangers, we have a split system , so they are about 4 feet apart. When the cycle is over the temps slowly start falling even though the boiler temp is 180 the inlet temp goes all the way down to 152 and stays that way until the next cycle starts. As the boiler temp rises from about 168 up to 182 approx. in its cycle the inlet temp starts coming up slowly until it gets to within 5 or 6 degrees of the high cycle temp of 180 ish. I'm worried that my boiler has been in constant shock since I started using it 3 years ago. I had never monitored any of these temps before except for the main boiler temp. Seems my water is nit mixing right. Just out the new  Grundfos 26-99 pump on this year and am using speed 2 of the three. I tried switching to low speed and high speed and nothing changed. My supply line is coming from the top back and the return comes in at the bottom right. I have 1 inch pex the one that had 2 red 2 blue inside the insulated drain pipe. Loop is 150 feet total from start to finish 18 inches deep. I'm hoping all the info I'm leaving here will help you guys come up with solutions to help me with this. There's no doubt I'm losing efficiency here and at times my domestic water doesn't have that extreme feeling like it does other times. I'm heating 5400 sq ft with a boiler designed for up to 8000. Please chime in with your opinions please.
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RSI

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 07:44:20 AM »

I am guessing the aquastat is up higher in the stove than the water outlet?
Sounds like it is stratifying and you are only really heating the water at the top of the tank.
That is why most MFGs changed to the supply at the bottom and the return at the top.

The water at the bottom of the boiler is probably colder than the return water coming from the house.
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wreckit87

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 09:00:02 AM »

150 return temps with 180 setpoint won't hurt a thing. It's more than common. If you are concerned however, and have an extra set of ports available in the back of the stove, you can pipe between those two ports and just pump supply water directly to the return port. This will mix the water within the boiler and reduce stratification greatly. Heatmaster G200 come standard with this shunt pump, and I've added a few of them to other stoves with similar issues and it fixed them right up
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shepherd boy

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 12:24:39 PM »

I think they used the same design as a Taylor, which was the first furnace I owned. If you notice where the outlet for the pump is, about a third of the way down from the top, and the return about a third of the way up from the bottom and has a internal pipe to the front of the furnace.The natural line of flow will be from the bottom front to the supply port. Your aquastat is on the upper front  which is a dead spot in the water circulation rout as well as the fact that most of the heat is generated in the top of the furnace. You can put a shunt pump on but I doubt it will have a dramatic effect. This is just the way these these stoves have always done. If it heats your house I wouldn't worry.
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Bluegrass Wood Burner

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 01:25:25 PM »

Would it be wise to up the hi temp to 190 and low at 175 or so?
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wreckit87

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 03:17:56 PM »

Where are you getting these numbers exactly? I've read the original post 20 times now and can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say. Your aquastat cuts out at 180 I think, right? So boiler temp is theoretically 180. Inlet to the exchangers is 178 at this point and pulls down to 152 when the air handler starts and stays there indefinitely until the boiler cycle begins again, at which point it starts warming up the temps at the exchanger supply to 175ish again? I'm ever so confused. If your supply temp at the boiler is 180 and your supply water at the exchanger is only 152, your underground is not carrying any heat. What is the return temp at the boiler, with both exchangers in the house calling? As long as that temp stays above 140 degrees, there is nothing to worry about
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shepherd boy

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 04:13:25 PM »

  Maybe I misunderstand, but I thought he was saying; The water at the heatex is 178 with the aquastat saying 180 and the aquastat still says 180 after the airhandler runs awhile but the supply temp of the water drops. But I just reread it and maybe I'm wrong. A little confusing.
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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 07:24:30 PM »

I  have 2 heat exchangers, they are in each of the split system, one for each end of my house. These two plenhums are side by side in center of my house.  My probes are zip tied to the inlet pipe going into the exchangers. So im monitoring water going into the exchangers. The reason I'm monitoring both is I was curious if one was getting more heat than the other. Turns out they are real close. Also wanted to see if both my probes were together with each other in accuracy. That's seems to be good also. Im puzzled as to why the drop in the house at the exchangers and not outside on the boiler gauge. When it goes from 178 to 152 on both exchangers and the water in the boiler stays right on 180, that's a little puzzling to me. 
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Bluegrass Wood Burner

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 07:30:18 PM »

The 178-152 is before it goes thru the exchangers. Nothing in the house triggers this. The cycle I'm talking about is the aquastat telling combustion fan temp is below 170 and we need more heat and it blows until back up to 180. The idle time of the combustion fan when its dropping in the house at the exchangers.
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Bluegrass Wood Burner

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 07:33:17 PM »

I haven't checked the return temps yet. Im out of town on my job, but plan on checking those when I get back home. I suspect the return temp at the boiler will be in the 140ish range when it gets down to 152 on the supply side.   
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wreckit87

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2018, 07:44:39 PM »

Do you have a gauge on the supply line at the boiler or are you going by what the aquastat says? They are often located in places that are drastically different than what the actual temp is. Just last week I had a brand new Central 6048 reading 185 on the digital controller but only 173 on the supply line. I had piped in a primary/secondary type fashion with a second pump within the boiler cavity due to undersized underground to keep return temps up which didn't seem to change the difference, still 12 degrees. I looped the second set of ports together with hoses and a transfer pump and it evened right out. Some of em just need more mixing. I need a solid 175 minimum in that building so I turned it up to 200 with a 10 degree diff and it's fine now. Still 12 degrees off from what the controller reads, but my actually supply temps are 178 at the very bottom of the cycle and it doesn't boil within the unit.

In your case however, if you read 152 and 178 both in the same spot while the boiler only has a 10 degree diff, that doesn't work. Sounds like your aquatstat is goofy or your probes need calibrating. When you're seeing 152 at the exchangers, the boiler still reads 180??
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mlappin

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2018, 07:59:15 PM »

Sounds to me like ht mixing is poor in the boiler, you have extra ports, take another pump and pull from the bottom and return to the top. I built my waste oil boiler this way, all four pumps pull from the bottom and return to the top, maybe a degree difference between the Ranco which is in a thermowell at the top and the differential controller that has a probe on a lower supply pipe.
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Bluegrass Wood Burner

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2018, 08:41:00 PM »

I have a large round Gauge on the front of my boiler. Its on the right hand side about a foot down from top. The Aquastat is on opposite side on from about a foot down. 
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Bluegrass Wood Burner

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2018, 06:13:00 AM »

Just some kind of cheap pump I assume would work for that? Any suggestions? Should it be on a timer or run all the time? Should I consider flipping my supply line and return line? Some of the advice I'm getting is if its heating your house just leave it alone. I do have times when its below zero at night when my heat is set on 73 on both ends and its 71 and duct blowers running solid. The difference in 178 and 152 no doubt would make a change in that. Thanks for all your advice.
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wreckit87

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Re: Having a major problem
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2018, 07:37:33 AM »

If you have the space for it, I would certainly try the shunt pump route. Any small, cheap circulator will help. Check Liquidus pumps on eBay, or I think Badger has their line (pretty sure they are the same thing with different labels) also for in the $65 range. I've used a few Liquidus and a local dealer has used exclusively Liquidus for several years now with no callbacks. They seem to be a high quality pump, plus they're 3 speed! I really think before you do anything though, you would benefit from getting a thermometer in the supply line at the boiler so you know exactly what's leaving the boiler and compare it to the other boiler thermometer
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