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Author Topic: Primary/Secondary system design  (Read 8853 times)

morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2017, 06:52:06 PM »

Any ideas on how I would control 2 concrete zones with 1 outdoor reset?
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2017, 07:21:10 PM »

Chirp chirp.....
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slimjim

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2017, 07:47:52 PM »

I guess I missed that but typically an outdoor reset is wired into a relay and it controls all the zones.
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Smokeless

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 10:01:33 AM »

The purpose of outdoor reset is to reduce energy use and cost without sacrificing comfort. The controller lowers boiler water temperature when the outdoor temperature is warmer and increases it when the outdoor temperature is colder. It is for controlling the fuel oil ,propane ,nat gas furnace only not for controlling outside wood furnace temp. The inside boiler should not be heated in the winter. It will be a negative energy flow. When you shut down the wood furnace then it comes into play. Mostly the shoulder months. 
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 12:12:06 PM »

Maybe I am calling it the wrong thing. I had seen one at an outdoor furnace dealer where they had what I thought was an "outdoor reset" hooked into the plumbing before the radiant manifold. It controlled the mixing valve to give warmer water on cold days and cooler water on warm days.

I'm struggling with how the plumbing would be setup to have 1 of them control 2 separate zones with 2 pumps without doing a tertiary loop.
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Smokeless

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 03:00:03 PM »

Tekmar 356 control is what you seen. It senses outside temp and controls a mix valve. Or circulator to do injection mixing in a secondary loop.
 Also you will need a heat exchanger for the house. Or you could get steam flash and a lot of air from that upstairs ️HX.
  Your primary loops won't work how the cad drew them out. Draw a circle and t off of it. ___|_|____|_|___|_|____.
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 06:30:30 AM »

I modified the drawing to show a series primary/secondary loop rather than the parallel that I had originally drawn per the recommendations. Drawing attached. Does anybody see any problems with this layout?

I am still struggling to envision how I can use one outdoor reset to control the water temp for 2 different radiant heat zones.

The outdoor reset that I have seen in the past is one from Viega. Attached picture.

Thanks

 
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NaturallyAspirated

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2017, 11:36:44 AM »

I modified the drawing to show a series primary/secondary loop rather than the parallel that I had originally drawn per the recommendations. Drawing attached. Does anybody see any problems with this layout?

I am still struggling to envision how I can use one outdoor reset to control the water temp for 2 different radiant heat zones.

The outdoor reset that I have seen in the past is one from Viega. Attached picture.

Thanks
That primary/secondary loop design looks much better.   :thumbup:  However see below...

First off, I apologize for not going over your first post a bit closer.

Now, as for the outside reset, I think you may want to reconsider using it at all.  You may be far more happy if you use thermostatic mixing valves for your concrete loops, instead of trying to turn your OWB down so low as to have cool enough water for your loops.  You will get a couple of major problems if you try to operate your OWB at such low temps, 80-120* depending on the BTU/sq. ft. you are aiming for. 

Firstly, flue gas condensation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flue-gas_condensation ).  Also check out idronics 10, page 8.  One of the primary functions of the new gasification  OWBs (your G200 is one) is to burn extremely HOT so as to fully and efficiently combust all the hydrocarbons possible.  This is counter in theory to running the stove in a setback or turndown, from a reset.  Reference idronics 7 p.9-10 & fig 3-5.  This has even caused a bit of a paradigm shift in OWB use in general, With regular non-gasification stoves, you could damper down, and let the stove smolder away when everything was up to temp and no major BTUs were required.  Since gasification stoves don't operate in the same turndown capable way, that smoldering style has given way to quick batch burn, and best when thermal storage is used. This is something you may consider implementing to replace the out door reset/turndown problem.  The addition of a thermal storage tank will allow you to load up the G200, do an efficient, hot burn, and store all those BTUs in a tank.  Reference idronics 10, p.28 fig. 6-12

Secondly, being that you may be unable to turn down the G200 far enough to have cool enough water for the loops, they will end up overshooting your BTU/sq. ft. target.  In addition, trying to run your stove so low will make the forced air, radiator, and hot water generation systems extremely inefficient.  All of those like the, "hotter is better" for water temperature. 

So..... to remedy these issues is probably going to be somewhat expensive.    :-[

Being that you are a Caleffi fan (as am I), they offer some storage tanks with the Thermocon line: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-NAS20120-119-Gallon-ThermoCon-Storage-Tank-without-Heat-Exchanger

Now, you are still stuck with the problem of having a vast quantity of hot water (in the storage tanks), yet needing cooler water for your concrete loops.  There are a couple options here: 

Adding a motorized mixing valve before each of the circulators for each loop manifold feed is one.  Reference idronics 10, p.37 fig. 7-2 (a fairly close system to which you wish to implement).  This can be used with a reset control.  It's intelligent, as it can respond to changes in your thermal storage temperature (tank may fall from 180*-160* before a new batch burn.  It is also one of the more complex ways to go about things (that's usually what I prefer, but I'm a bit of geek, and a glutton for punishment!  :bash: )

There is the option of having a thermostatically controlled (maintains output), but using a cartridge style mixing valve, Reference idronics 7, p.19-20 fig. 4-8.  This gives a similar ability to react to input temperatures to maintain the set output temperature.  This does so without so many of the fun doo-dads. This is what I play to deply for a system expansion this fall.  I'm constructing a heated dog kennel for our new dogs, and have a force air heater for the enclosed house part of the kennel, and a single loop for the pad, both inside the house and out on the exposed pad of the kennel.   See attached pdf.   :thumbup:  This option is fairly reasonable, as the valves are not hugely expensive, and a little more plumbing is all that is required from what you already have.

You could also deploy a complete mixing station, something along the lines of Caleffi 172 series: https://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/catalogue/manifold-mixing-station-high-efficiency-pump-1725c1ahe  Reference idronics 7 p.34 fig. 6-5.  You can find them in most any configuration of port numbers you may need.

Sorry to be a bit of a rain cloud, but starting off with a well designed system seems to be better than trying to come in and modify something you may not be happy with.
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2017, 12:24:17 PM »

Than you for the detailed response.

I have been calling it an outdoor reset but what I think I mean is an automatic thermostatic mixing valve. I want to lower the temp of the water running through the concrete loops on warmer days and raise it on the cooler ones.

I am on the same page as you on keeping the boiler water at the high temp all the time.

I was hoping to use just one valve for multiple zones to try and cut down on the cost.

I am looking at your diagram for your dog kennel and have a few questions.

The primary/secondary loop going to the house and towel warmers makes sense to me but can you elaborate on the other loop going to the garage and dog kennel?
It looks like there is a mixing valve "ZV999" just after the pump in the primary loop..... and also one before the pump "TMV999" in the secondary zone.

Also do you have a special software to make these diagrams or just using autocad?

No problem on correcting my errors. I only want to do it once!
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NaturallyAspirated

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2017, 02:50:17 PM »

Than you for the detailed response.

I have been calling it an outdoor reset but what I think I mean is an automatic thermostatic mixing valve. I want to lower the temp of the water running through the concrete loops on warmer days and raise it on the cooler ones.

I am on the same page as you on keeping the boiler water at the high temp all the time.

I was hoping to use just one valve for multiple zones to try and cut down on the cost.

I am looking at your diagram for your dog kennel and have a few questions.

The primary/secondary loop going to the house and towel warmers makes sense to me but can you elaborate on the other loop going to the garage and dog kennel?
It looks like there is a mixing valve "ZV999" just after the pump in the primary loop..... and also one before the pump "TMV999" in the secondary zone.

Also do you have a special software to make these diagrams or just using autocad?

No problem on correcting my errors. I only want to do it once!
The ZV999 is a 3 way zone valve that will redirect the second main loop back into the stove to keep the return water above the minimum set point.  As you can see the two returns have thermocouples just before going back into the stove.  That is what will determine if the valve needs to return the hot output directly back in the return, or if the returns are hot enough to provide service to the entire second main loop.  It works like a boiler protection valve, and can be replaced with one instead of the zone valve.  If you look just to the right of the pink and the T you will see a check valve that forces the flow back into the stove and prevents it from going down the cool return line.  I don't anticipate a lot of movement of any valve that is used for boiler protection, as I have a Central Boiler Maxim M250 corn/pellet stove, and not a gasification stove.  The M250 can turn down and idle when the high water temp set point has been reached.

The TMV999 is a thermostatic mixing valve (I have not yet finished setting the labels numbers) to mix down the temp for the slab loop. 

I am using Microsoft Visio, and some of the Caleffi stencils for it.  If a stencil does't exist I use commonly used industry symbols (thermometer/flow meter, ect.)  :thumbup:
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