Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Empyre => Topic started by: Spyder5276 on March 05, 2014, 05:45:48 PM

Title: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on March 05, 2014, 05:45:48 PM
 Have a new pro 400 and only have been using it for 4 months. And come out to a burn mark on the side. As seen in this pic they have issues with there metal. They will not even be professional and call or email back. Just shipped a box whith a BOLT ON REPAIR. Nothing like admitting your have a issue.
One unhappy person!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 05, 2014, 07:35:47 PM
First I've seen of that, was there any explanation?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on March 06, 2014, 04:21:55 AM
None. They won't respond. The metal shown is so brittle and thin. Received a repair kit. That is admintance you have a failure. Attached a pic of there kit. Not even nice enough to replace my insulation and burnt panel.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 06, 2014, 06:25:05 AM
They deal primarily with there dealers I'll admit that, have you talked to your dealer to find out anything?    I agree tho it seems they knew that could happen, I had never seen it tho
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 06, 2014, 07:19:50 AM
Called a Empyre distributor to find out more about this issue

He said he has had 2 stoves to do that, he's sold a lot of them but said if the stove idles a lot that it "can" Cause games and harmful stuff to gather at that point because it is a cool spot

He said that Empyre made the kit to fix it and the kit has fixed the issue on all he'd seen. 

But for future reference this is good to know there is something available.   

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on March 06, 2014, 08:02:59 PM
Not much idle time this winter. Tired of this cold stuff. Thanks.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Belknap on March 06, 2014, 08:32:15 PM
How much of a load are you running on the boiler?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 06, 2014, 08:57:10 PM
Yea, I'm not sure as I've not seen the issue

I did talk to him again and he was curious about how many Sq ft you were heating and where

He said both he'd saw do that were folks who stuffed the fire box regardless of the heat load, I'm not saying that makes it ok or taking up for this issue, but he said it seemed the extra wood in the ones he'd seen created more gas during idle and led to that
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on March 08, 2014, 05:32:16 AM
House is 1800 living space and 1200 basement forced air system. Northwest Pennsylvania. Loaded once a day. Reason this size is due to adding on a 28x32 two story garage. Once weather breaks.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 09, 2014, 10:13:41 AM
House is 1800 living space and 1200 basement forced air system. Northwest Pennsylvania. Loaded once a day. Reason this size is due to adding on a 28x32 two story garage. Once weather breaks.


Yep, overloading the stove. ..   first let's make it clear I am not saying this is your fault or that you should have had this issue

but here is the deal with how most gasification operates.  If you buy a gasification unit it must be sized very close to what it's actually going to be doing. If your heating 1/3 the space the stove is rated for and then enjoy the benefits of the potential 24 hour or longer burn times issues could arise. 

With such a low heat draw on such a large stove, I would advise you to get on a 12-15 hour burn schedule and only use enough wood for that amount of time.  What's happening is that the stove being full of wood is producing a lot of syngas which is just wondering around in there because there is such low demand on the furnace

In conventional boilers, this isn't nearly as important but in sizing gasifiers, proper sizing is most crucial

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Belknap on March 09, 2014, 05:37:40 PM
Once he gets the other building that will help.  Also would changing the differential to 5 help so that it would not have as long idle times?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: martyinmi on March 09, 2014, 08:20:44 PM
Scott7m is right.
Gassers should be only partially filled(just enough fuel to last until the next feeding) at least twice daily.
On weekends if I'm around home I'll throw in a couple pieces every 4 or 5 hours throughout the day.

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 09, 2014, 08:27:36 PM
Changing differential may?  I'm not real sure tho

This is something I'd like to see some folks play with but I'm not sure


Marty is spot on, over filling a gasser isn't a good idea, regardless of brand
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Belknap on March 09, 2014, 08:49:30 PM
I had talked to the factory because it was taking a long time for the boiler to recover after a call for heat on my radiant floor heat.  They had me change the differential to 5 so it is now set 175 on 180 off.  That did seem to  help.  I usually fill mine during the week full in the morning and then again at night.  Now that is a little warmer I have been filling it about 3/4 full.  I looked today at my air box and everything seem good and solid.  I did not see any signs of metal problems.  When I shut down this spring I will pull the blower off and see how things look.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 09, 2014, 09:36:02 PM
Good idea to inspect everything once a year if you can
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: cbofei on March 11, 2014, 01:14:53 PM
How do u change the differential?.  I thought that might help in early spring and fall as well
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on March 14, 2014, 05:16:19 PM
overloading the stove! So your saying if you buy a truck that can tow 2,700lbs and your pulling a trailer that weights 1,900lbs. And the motor blows! You saying it was NOT LOADED ENOUGH????? 12 to 15 hr burn time? Sounds like the same as I mentioned "once a day load" also heating DW. 3 women in house who love showers!,
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on March 14, 2014, 09:31:06 PM
You don't have to believe anything I say, that's up to you

But whoever sold you a gasser to heat 1/4 the space it was designed for should know that or should have better instructed you as to the bad effects of having a gassifier over sized that much

Your example has nothing to do with any of the processes going on in a gassifier outdoor wood furnace

In the truck the fuel injection controls the amount of fuel going in, you are flooding the system with 2 much available fuel for the job at hand, that's why the extra gasses are going to cool spots by the fan to condense and cause damage. 

Once again? Let me say, I'm not defending anyone or saying it's your fault, but if u wanna get the most life out of your unit please listen

12 hour burn times are twice a day, you said you were filling it once a day

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on March 15, 2014, 06:25:29 AM
As a direct competitor and also what I consider a friend I will agree with Scott 100% on this one.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 09, 2014, 06:23:09 PM
If Your burner is running now with temps going from 45/65 then your also not pulling on your burner. I get what your trying to say. BUT COME ON! Less than 4 months and it's a junk box!!!!  And still sitting with Holes in it. Cause the Dealer feels he sold it now, you deal with it!  O Profab does not even want to respond! NOW THATS CALLED CUSTOMER SERVICE!! BUY USA PEOPLE!!!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 10, 2014, 03:45:51 PM
If Your burner is running now with temps going from 45/65 then your also not pulling on your burner. I get what your trying to say. BUT COME ON! Less than 4 months and it's a junk box!!!!  And still sitting with Holes in it. Cause the Dealer feels he sold it now, you deal with it!  O Profab does not even want to respond! NOW THATS CALLED CUSTOMER SERVICE!! BUY USA PEOPLE!!!

It is made in the u.s.a, right there in lawrenceburg Tennessee.  Nationality dont have nothing to do with it tho

What parts are u needing??  Maybe I can help if your dealer wont

Slim had a good analogy about the truck scenario, trucks have transmissions for varying loads of work, you dont always drive your truck around in 6th gear. 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Hammersquash on April 10, 2014, 05:34:28 PM
If Your burner is running now with temps going from 45/65 then your also not pulling on your burner. I get what your trying to say. BUT COME ON! Less than 4 months and it's a junk box!!!!  And still sitting with Holes in it. Cause the Dealer feels he sold it now, you deal with it!  O Profab does not even want to respond! NOW THATS CALLED CUSTOMER SERVICE!! BUY USA PEOPLE!!!

Slim had a good analogy about the truck scenario, trucks have transmissions for varying loads of work, you dont always drive your truck around in 6th gear.

Diesel particulate filters may be an even better analogy.  You used to be able to idle a diesel all day long but with the particulate filters and the varying methods of self cleaning you will plug one up pretty bad if you are not using the truck to its intended capacity.  Likewise can happen when exhaust temperatures exceed thresholds.  Underuse=over loading with soot, overuse= filter meltdown.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 10, 2014, 07:22:23 PM
I get it. I get all what is bein said. But on the back side. If such a thing can and will happen. Build it to with stand it. Also had several people out to look at it and could not believe the metal!

I do not need parts. They sent a band aide to fix it but there is no metal to screw it to. See the plate in the one picture. Other than that it sits with holes in it and plugged solid. Time to attorney up!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 10, 2014, 09:17:29 PM
The specs for what they are worth suggest an output of between 150,000btus and 350,000btus.

I am going to guess that you heat load is nowhere near the lower number.

I assume you do not have any storage, that might help, burn it hard dump the excess heat into storage. A 1000 gallon Propane tank would do.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 11, 2014, 05:26:51 AM
Snyder, in my opinion that is the wrong attitude to start with, allow me to say that as a troubleshooting rep that gets almost every call for help from P and M customers having trouble, I normally start the conversation by saying let's stop with the blame game and start by finding out where or what went wrong, perhaps the issue can be diagnosed and therefor fixed to the satisfaction of both parties, lawyers are there to take monies from both sides, do you wonder why they seem to migrate into political office, I strongly suggest that you first try to work with the manufacturer, perhaps they are not aware of the issue or are underestimating it, perhaps you may have some ideas on how to fix it, for example, Morgan in Michigan has one of our units that was severely oversized from day one, it needs to be replaced, nobody is at fault, we have come to an agreement on that part and Tom has agreed to help with feeding us some information that will help us solve the problems for somebody else, nobody loses and everybody wins, if we can all work together
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 06:25:42 AM
Wasting your time spyder, only one who will make anything is the lawyer and your stove will still be down. 

The plate they sent you covers the whole mounting area, correct?

Have you thought about any other means of attaching it other than screws?  I think there is enough material
Left to make something work.

What can they not believe about the steel?  If its thickness, its only an air duct, if it was thicker the end result wouldnt be much different with the oversizing, just delayed a little
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Sprinter on April 11, 2014, 09:02:41 AM
Why does he have to fix anything? Unless slim gets involved with every case and it becomes public, nothing gets resolved. Why does it have to be so hard. This does give new customers a good pic, for product or gassifiers. Didn't pro fab just close down that factory as was mentioned in another thread.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 03:48:04 PM
Why does he have to fix anything? Unless slim gets involved with every case and it becomes public, nothing gets resolved. Why does it have to be so hard. This does give new customers a good pic, for product or gassifiers. Didn't pro fab just close down that factory as was mentioned in another thread.

No sprinter, it has nothing to do with that at all.  Empyre closed the Canadian facility because they have one much larger near Nashville where there are 10x more certified welders for stoves and oil rig stuff.

I don't know what you think slim has anything to do with this situation,  I have offered to help him and you see its went no where.  Why does he have to fix anything?  Who really knows, I'm not calling him a liar but know everything has to be viewed with an open mind and not a game of blame.  Maybe his dealer doesn't service stoves or is a new dealer,  heck, whatever it's all pure speculation.

I though would like to help him if it's simply to create some leverage for him,  I would like to know who his dealer was etc etc etc

But I also know I need to hear more than simply what the customer has said, that's why when something like this happens it's better for everyone to come together and work it out,  i know Empyre doesn't do a lot direct with customers as that's what dealers are for, that's why id like to know who it was so the story can come out, whatever it may be

I can only say when u start hollering lawyer nothing will ever be done, the dealer will wash his hands of it and Empyre will basically do the same.   If he truly wants help, cooler heads will prevail and I can likely get him the help he needs,  if it's a dealer error or something it's hard telling what he's telling Empyre, but once again, all pure speculation

But once again I don't know how slim commenting on the topic has anything to do with it,  we all know he tried to help Roxanne, and it's a good thing he did
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 11, 2014, 03:51:05 PM
Scott I wanted to explain the same thing but you made it sound better than what I had to write! Good post!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 05:16:37 PM
Scott I wanted to explain the same thing but you made it sound better than what I had to write! Good post!

Thank you...  We have to get to the bottom of it first and then go from there
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 11, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
Please don't get me wrong here, Guys I'm not GOD and can't possibly fix every thing that goes on with a wood boiler, I do what I can, as do many others here on the forum, Scott is one of those guys! I was simply commenting on the attitude of Spyder, I understand he's pissed but try putting yourself on the other end of the phone when an upset customer calls with a problem, it does not matter who's fault it is but if a little bit of courtesy is used then things seem to work out easier
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 05:51:58 PM
Let please start off by saying. A person has to yell lawyer to get people off there rear.
Second my friend bought one of these a year prior to me. During the time of my install his burnt up. He called his insurance co. And they came in and said faulty install and gave him a check to get a new one. He bought the same one. His insurance sewed the installer for there money back.
As soon as I seem the burn mark I took pictures and sent them to dealer TOMEO FARMS in Mercer Pa. Pro fab even the lady who sent me my water sample back from pro fab and the warranty lady.
A few days later I call dealer and he said he needed to talk to pro fab.
A week later I get a call from MATT TOMEO saying " I have a parts box for you, you can pick them up before 5 "
I pick them up just to see what he has. Told me " just screw this in place"
Well after 2 weeks I decided to call my insurance co due to nothing being done. At this point the dealer has not shown up to even look at it. Insurance has me find 2 people to look at it. Said the inside is all wrong. No wonder my water temp was 170*
So I email MATT AND HAVE ALSO BEEN INFORMING WARREN CONLEY at profab.  WITH NO REPLYS!
BUT once I mention I have water @ 170* and if my kids get burnt from it! Who is writing the checks???
Well Mr Conley sure did perk up his ears then and said to turn the unit off.
WELL IF I WOULD HAVE DONE THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A BLOCK OF ICE.
A day later the installer (who was just paid to install it by TOEMO FARMS. Called and said he needs to install a mixing valve. Showed up last sat and installed it. Even after I told him it was installed wrong. But insisted it was ok. I RAN OUT OF HOT WATER AFTER ONE SHOWER. See picture. Then had to come back on Monday to fix it.
So is there any more ??
Put the shoe on your foot.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 05:56:22 PM
Can you tell I am Pissed?? You can't see emotions in text. I have been very nice in my conversations on the phone. But what does it take to get someone off there ass? Yep being a dick to them. And I have came to that. But you all have helped me. And I am gteatful for it. Your the ones making Judgment!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 06:17:35 PM
I at least have informed 595 viewers of this issue. Next up is YouTube :) to inform that crowd. There's Craigslisteven eBay. All with eyes of buyers

And why is it that it seems this forum is controlled by only a few voices?? Is someone's pocket getting full?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 11, 2014, 07:35:49 PM
Did you have someone do the install or did you hook it up, I'm only asking this question not in regards to the boiler problem but the hot water I've seen lots of people hook them up themselves and they have scalding water. With a mixing valve you wouldnt have that problem, that would solve the burning hot water problem
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 08:16:24 PM
What kind of heat exchanger do you have for ur hot water?? 

U had water at the tap of 170, I dont know how thats possible with a plate cause I dont see a sidearm.  I never do mixing valves and our water is usually 130 max

Here is where youll likely learn your lesson of being a dick as you call it.  there is likely a hundred loop holes they could use to side step every bit of it, and thats exactly what will happen if you lose your cool. 

Profab is a huge company, Wood boilers are only a part of it,  ur not going to cause them any pain, trust me.  There are similar vids out there not with your situation but folks who had stuff fixed wrong

Here is what I dont get, im offering to help and put you in contact with the right people, but you cant even say that will be great, or I would sure appreciate it, you just start hollering you wAnna be a dick.

If your pissed at people or about the situation just talking to forum members, we def know how your being towards those who you feel is responsible.

I would also like to make it clear im not defending empyre, you, or your dealer.  Im just trying to help and encourae you to take the high road so your not left with a 12k dollar yard ornament that you spent another 5k on seeking revenge.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 11, 2014, 08:20:41 PM
Step by step, anything wrong please advise.

You wanted a OWB

You talked to Tomeo Farms, they seem from what I can find a general hardware store, they do not have a web site but there Facebook page suggest they mainly do wood and pellet stoves.

You told them what you have and what you are going to build and they recommended the stove you bought.

Looks like they sub contract install but you bought the package, OWB and install.

OWB was installed and plumbed into your existing heating system, sounds like it was done badly. Where I am mixer valves are compulsory.

Rusted through in a spot due to the Boiler being grossly over sized for your current needs.

'Dealer' sends you a patch and tells you to install it yourself? This would piss me, if I bought a new truck and it fails I do not expect the Dealer to send me the part and tell me to install it myself.

Sounds to me the issue it with the 'Dealer'. Supplied a Boiler that was not fit for purpose (too large) and could not operate successfully with a small load. Also his installer cocked things up.

What should have happened:

1) Sold you a smaller OWB. Trade it in for the bigger one when needed.

2) Told you to come back when your new build was ready.

3) I presume this Boiler could have been made to work satisfactorily with storage, ie he could have said yes we can install this Boiler but not with our conventional install, we need to redesign. Which begs the question if they have anybody on hand who has sufficient knowledge to do these things properly, I am going to guess not.

Summary - Dealer ignorance.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 08:30:15 PM
Boiler, if what spyder Is saying is all accurate I agree.  As I have said from the beginning of this thread you cant over size that style boiler to such an outrageous degree.  If his dealer is there locally and doesent even offer his own installs, there is your first sign.  It seems to me like empyre was prompt with getting him the parts, he just wont do it.

If you started out nice and didnt piss him off, you could now pressure him to fix your stove.  Empyre did send the parts to there dealer, why he wont, thats what I wanna know

I was prepared to call him and have a talk but with all this dickhead talk its hard to feel motivated
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 11, 2014, 09:04:49 PM
Everyone was here to help you spyder........
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 11, 2014, 09:11:02 PM
I have a feeling this thread has come to an end. I would have liked to know the outcome.

For my own amusement, if say a 1,000 Gallon insulated ex Propane Tank being added to the mix, could it have worked reasonably?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 09:20:51 PM
End it has! In my best Yoda voice.

Jwood thank you

Sprinter thank you
Be safe. Enjoy the summer.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 09:28:45 PM
Yep, this thread is over basically, what a shame, an oppurtunity came where we could all learn from it and it turns into this.


Now, I think its very clear why he hasnt gotten any help, we have all offered advice and encouragement and this is what we get is more hot headed rants. 

Boiler, yes, it could have alleviated the problem he had by making long clean burns vs these short cool bursts due to the wrong sizing or the unit..


This is where the discussion needed to head, was how can we fix this and keep it from happening again, if he gets this issue fixed, its merely a patch, the real "issue" is still there and will continue to cause more serious problems in the future. 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 09:34:28 PM
I at least have informed 595 viewers of this issue. Next up is YouTube :) to inform that crowd. There's Craigslisteven eBay. All with eyes of buyers

And why is it that it seems this forum is controlled by only a few voices?? Is someone's pocket getting full?

IF you would have spent the time to go back thru hundreds of threads, slimjim, Scott7m and the few others that did TRY to help are nothing but straight up and honest people even when it doesn't concern the brands they handle, and instead you either ignore them or insult them.

I don't own a prefab, never even seen anything by prefab yet soon as I started to read this thread I knew what you had was overkill. You certainly don't walk into a new car dealer and buy the first thing the salesman says you need without doing any research? If you had done any research on your own you would have known an anti scald device was needed with kids in the house. If you would have listened to the advice you would be considering loading it twice a day instead of your 15 hour or better burn times, yet everybody else is the dickhead? Maybe a good hard look in a mirror is in order to find the real dickhead.

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 09:47:28 PM
I at least have informed 595 viewers of this issue. Next up is YouTube :) to inform that crowd. There's Craigslisteven eBay. All with eyes of buyers

And why is it that it seems this forum is controlled by only a few voices?? Is someone's pocket getting full?

IF you would have spent the time to go back thru hundreds of threads, slimjim, Scott7m and the few others that did TRY to help are nothing but straight up and honest people even when it doesn't concern the brands they handle, and instead you either ignore them or insult them.

I don't own a prefab, never even seen anything by prefab yet soon as I started to read this thread I knew what you had was overkill. You certainly don't walk into a new car dealer and buy the first thing the salesman says you need without doing any research? If you had done any research on your own you would have known an anti scald device was needed with kids in the house. If you would have listened to the advice you would be considering loading it twice a day instead of your 15 hour or better burn times, yet everybody else is the dickhead? Maybe a good hard look in a mirror is in order to find the real dickhead.

 :post:

There are several folks here who are in the industry and im thankful to call them friends.  We all are here to help, regardless of brand.  As slim would say, its about building a stronger industry and promoting Wood burning.  If we all Work together as slim has even more so inspired me to do, it will make the whole industry stronger and better. 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 09:49:29 PM
628 and rising. For those jumping in. All I stated was facts. Do I know boiler systems No!  Did I research. Yes the best I could on what little free time I have working 12/15 days. Was I being a ass? No! But all I heard was "You over loaded it!""You have to little load!""You need to pull more heat!"   At what stage did someone say "hay. I can help! Here is what you need to do!" 

Yep. Crickets!!!
But this is starting to be Fun. ;)
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 09:55:07 PM
Also for the one who asked. The boiler water runs from the boiler into my house it is T'd and splits. One to a plate heat exchanger. Others goes over to the heat exchanger in the forced air. So boiler water is in boiler and heat exchsnger. House hot water runs throughout plate exchanger to tank back to plate
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 09:57:22 PM
Have to disagree on that.

It was mentioned several times that you were sold a stove that was too large for your heat requirement. It was mentioned several times not to over fill it. It was also mentioned several times that with that large a stove your idle times are too long.

After the help that was offered you instead accuse people of being on the take.

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 09:59:10 PM

We def were not being crickets, but in regards of helping you in particular, we will def be crickets now... 


I wish we could sticky this post for an example of how not to approach a problem or a forum of people who is here because we are passionate about burning wood


 I supposed u would have rather us lied to you vs telling you why you had this issue to start with
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 10:01:12 PM
And was told by the central boiler dealer this unit was to small for me!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 10:02:01 PM
Also for the one who asked. The boiler water runs from the boiler into my house it is T'd and splits. One to a plate heat exchanger. Others goes over to the heat exchanger in the forced air. So boiler water is in boiler and heat exchsnger. House hot water runs throughout plate exchanger to tank back to plate

Wow what a freakin mess........  Thats all about as wrong and sloppy as it gets, thats even a 10 plate!!  Sheww.. 

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 10:04:39 PM
O I am sorry the help was AFTER the unit killed over! And I once again thank you for your input of the reasons it went wrong. Just makes my point even stronger.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 10:06:43 PM
640 and rising  ;D  :thumbup:  :post:
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 10:07:51 PM
And was told by the central boiler dealer this unit was to small for me!

well 2 wrongs dont make a right....   


Still cant believe how sloppy it was all done... 

This all comes back to the dealer not knowing what hes doing, but as a customer making such a large investment, research was crucial.. 

Now someone can read this mess and benefit from it and the see the impotance of an informed dealer vs one making you a sweet deal, not that he did
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 10:13:51 PM
640 and rising  ;D  :thumbup:  :post:

U dont know how the count works do you???   

Of the 640 hits half are likely bots, 90% of the other half is likely a handful of us regulars.

like I said before, this isnt goin to help u at all


Serious question, how were we supposed to help you with a problem before we here ever knew there was a problem?   You came on here condescending immediately, with each post u simply argued.   before any problem can be fixed, we need to know why it happened to begin with
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 10:15:47 PM
O I am sorry the help was AFTER the unit killed over! And I once again thank you for your input of the reasons it went wrong. Just makes my point even stronger.

NOW you're being an ass.

You didn't post on this site till after you had the problem, don't blame the good people here for not being able to head off a problem after the damage has already been done. Take that up with the dealer that you dealt with originally.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 10:19:22 PM
O I am sorry the help was AFTER the unit killed over! And I once again thank you for your input of the reasons it went wrong. Just makes my point even stronger.

NOW you're being an ass.

You didn't post on this site till after you had the problem, don't blame the good people here for not being able to head off a problem after the damage has already been done. Take that up with the dealer that you dealt with originally.


Somehow he thinks this is making someone besides him look bad???????    :o

650 and rising lol
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: AirForcePOL on April 11, 2014, 10:22:15 PM
Good luck getting help from anyone on here with that attitude.  You came here for help and then piss off everyone who was offering their time to give you their advice.  I'm pretty sure you've already worn out your welcome here, spyder.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 10:32:15 PM
I know how views work! 2 your all still posting. 3. I came here looking for advise to help me find what went posting. 4 start from the beginning.
I love the jumper on's. 
have I rattled your chains? 
I came on here to get advise on the reasons and what or who I could contact to get heat in my house without spending $700 in electric bills. So for those who can't read or want to read between the lines have fun with the bashing. I am!
Friday night fun!! Whoop whoop.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 11, 2014, 10:35:20 PM
Too bad you couldn't have found this site before your purchase everyone would have helped you on your purchase, I have learned tons on this site because that's what it is for if you want to start a war against pro fab so be it, just don't do it here because this group has passion about wood burning and not that it matters but I've installed many furnaces and even the new stuff has issues. It's just the way it is, that's why they sell parts for new furnaces. I could put a 100,000 btu furnace in my house sure but is it going to work yes it will, will I get the 97% efficiency that its rated? Nope! Why you ask, because my house needs a 75,000 btu furnace. I didn't go on a slam fest about my Heil furnace when the smart gas valve went out because it would have got me nowhere I bought the part and went about my business, don't sweat the small stuff so to speak, don't let yourself get so wound up, your boiler is man made same as my furnace and people make mistakes. Prime example would be vehicle recalls, they don't build cars knowing there is a problem so they can get a bunch of negative press it just happens unfortunately!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 11:07:19 PM
Thank you. You just proved my passion on why has it not been taken care of. Yes the dealer has dropped the ball. But also has profab. If you was the company would you not want to get this resolved ASAP? I would! I work in a industry that its main focus is" hospitality" we make customers first. Even If there wrong. Just to promote more business.
Yes did I not find your site. Do I bust my ass to provide for my family? YOU BEST PUT YOUR LIFE ON THAT!
Am I a OWB pro? He'll no. Did I get shafted? He'll yes!
But who started calling "dick?" Yep Scott!
Am I wrong hell yes. BUT AT LEAST I WILL SAY IT!
I
No ones perfict but at least make the attemp to do wright!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 11, 2014, 11:27:24 PM
My wife is from Delaware, so I have some idea of local weather conditions. But not a lot.

All I know about this particular Boiler is from their web site.

Looking at your photograph and making some hopefully reasonable assumptions I think you are likely to have too big a boiler even after you have added the Garage to the system.

What were you using before you obtained the OWB? Just wondering about size and how it met your needs. Do you have a heat loss calculation on your House and new build?

If I am right about it being too big, then there would seem to be several options:

Return unit for a refund, going to assume that is tricky.

Swap it out for one the right size, may also be tricky.

Make the current one work using a different install.

I tend to over investigate any new purchase, I know I am a bit unusual in that. I make sure I have some check questions to check their knowledge. But having said that it should not have to be that way.

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 11, 2014, 11:59:16 PM
Theboiler. Thank you for your questions. My house was electric forced air heat. Until I received a $721 bill. Electric got shut off. And a homemade wood burner was already in the basement. We used it for that winter. That summer removed it and had a Tractor supply Clayton forced air stove

http://m.tractorsupply.com/en/store/united-states-stove-clayton-wood-coal-stove-with-draft-kit-twin-800-cfm-blowers (http://m.tractorsupply.com/en/store/united-states-stove-clayton-wood-coal-stove-with-draft-kit-twin-800-cfm-blowers)

A heat calculator? No.
I understand what your asking. I work with a/c units. But before that gets thrown at me. I fix them not install them.

I think I used less wood with the Clayton.
Issues was we got the house to 74 then needed to stock wood. After stocking the house was 64 or less and was a cycle like that.
I live where there is no choice in heating. Wood or electric.
My parents house burnt due to a fire and has bothered me since. I was the one taking care of it. They ship themselves to Flordia in winter. Always had that fear of what if! And with my girls in the house. I did not sleep. Yes a long story on that part.
Call the dealer yourself. And just ask about buying a burner. He can talk the talk and I fell. My bad!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 12, 2014, 12:11:06 AM
Also requested a refund. No comment. Installer said the dealer blamed him. Dealer is acting like lowes or Home Depot. Issues take it to the manufacture not me! 
I had a central boiler and hardy dealer to look at it. All I can say is they both said wow. On inside and out. But what do you expect from me. I am not the burner expert. You all can't provide the best burner, instulation and maintenance or how much wood to use. It's all a demand thing. I get that now. And thanks once again for your info.
I guess I should have just powered the unit down that morning in feb and left it freeze. But I did not.
But what done is done. My bad or there's.
the question is how can it be wright?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 04:32:34 AM
Spyder are you at all interested in fixing the whole problem and are you willing to listen/ take advice, sorry I missed all the action last night, I went to bed early. The picture you posted of the piping in my opinion is a hack job and yes you were taken for a ride, what can we do to help you. No I am not on the take and that is an insult to me, the only monies that I receive for being on this forum are from portage and main, we simply think that helping the industry to improve it's name helps us all as citizens and manufacturers, if you would like some advice then we are here to help!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 12, 2014, 05:41:48 AM
I would love advise. And I apologize! I want it fixed but not a bandaide tossed on it. It's plugged up now due to the air not getting in. I cleaned it and 10 holes plugged solid. Took over 2 hours and the door seal leaks. Looks like hell. But I informed them all about it. I even slapped on some metal duct tape to help me get by. Do you still clean it? Yes toss in the pro former?  Yes cause I am stuck with it.
And to top it all off I now have a water pump leaking. Spilling out between the motor and the pump. Great!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 05:48:56 AM
OK, the past is the past and now we can start anew, can you tell me where you are at, perhaps somebody on here that has some knowledge of install and operation would be willing to come to your home and give advice, Scott will more than likely be your best bet as far as the stove is concerned and I'm sure he will be willing, he really is a great guy, but to me that is the least of your problem, the majority of your issues are in the install, can you post some more photo's of it.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 12, 2014, 06:37:01 AM
Thank you slimjim. I live near Mercer pa. What pics do you want of burner or inside hack job
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 06:42:39 AM
Pictures of everything plumbing and I don't know if anyone asked but how far is the boiler from the house and what size lines are buried underground?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 06:45:20 AM
Could you send those to corporate and Scott, perhaps he can help with that part, let them know you want to work with them to fix it and WE can perhaps work on the install portion as I think that is where the problems started and snowballed from there, Jwood the original post appears to be  Logstor pipe but then appears to be either 3/4 inch or 1 inch nominally sized pex with lots of 90's
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 12, 2014, 07:38:29 AM
Spyder, show me one place where I said you were a dick????  It was you and your bad attitude that started holler u needed to act like s dick to get help, I simply said that all that dick talk wouldnt help you

But, since you have seemed to cool below boiling, maybe we can address issues.

In regards to your dealer, what does he say about your install?  The install can potentially make the problem you have worse as well, but there is still the huge issue of oversizing, correcting this with storage could be possible but it would not be cheap

Im not sure how your stove is even operating, but its going to be a mother to try to get it clean now
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 12, 2014, 08:21:25 AM
How much per KW do you pay?

Is this something you will do yourself or are you looking for someone to do the design and install?

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 12, 2014, 12:06:44 PM
Welder just left "I am not touching it"
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 12, 2014, 12:12:58 PM
The dealer told the installer I have you what profab sent to me. So it's your problem you installed it. SCOTT I AM TRUELY SORRY. It has been a rough winter and had a very bad day.  My bad. And to all who read it also SORRY ! My first electric bill when the winter hit was $712. I will get more pics. I have been busy and soccer games for my girls.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 12:15:49 PM
Spyder, how far off 81 are you? Perhaps we could stop on the way home?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 12:17:42 PM
No problem we will forgive you as long as you help the next fella with problems that's what everyone is here for, oh and of course talking about how we all like to burn wood!
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Sprinter on April 12, 2014, 01:08:57 PM
Scott how about where you liked someone else's post, just as you did to me in another. You could have helped him public or private without all this stuff. Your replies are more negative or about things spider did wrong than they are helpful.
Where is some compassion for the guy. He spent money to have it all done because he doesn't know about boilers.he sounds like the classic case you always pretend to help out. To high utility bills and needs a wood system. Its obvious he's out in the boonies with not a lot of resources. I mean pro fab must think a hardware is qualified to sell their product, they are a big and great company.
I think if we compare your help and replies to slims, you are by no means a slim, but you pretend to be and drop his name whenever you get the chance. It might make you look good to some , but it's about real help with solutions. Slim helps out any way he can with NO regard for compensation. Actions speak louder than words.
Spider a perfectly fine guy tries the nice route, gets nothing or similar responses as he got here. Well does he walk away and now have a12k lawn ornament as you say, or does he turn up the heat to get something done. Unfortunately in the OWB industry you have to be like that or nothing gets done. I think this would be an easy case for you to do more than his dealer could. Make you look like a hero. Or will we just read more posts full of excuses, things he did wrong and how upset he is after loosing on a big investment. This is what you get when you deal with an unlicensed or regulated industry. There are not enough good individuals to clean it up, to many are looking for a quick buck.

Storage helps in ALL boiler applications, whether it be as small as a 30 gal buffer or 2000 gallons. The most efficient boilers in the world use them regardless of fuel source. As soon as you have a battery you eliminate the sizing problems so many complain about.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 01:23:23 PM
Could we all take a moment to reflect here, blame games don't work on either side, I know Scott well enough that I'm sure he has done and will do more to help.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 12, 2014, 01:32:40 PM
Cleaned my computer and re post a previous reply, how does that happen.

Good, sounds like I will see a conclusion.

For the little its worth I would allocate some of that space in the new build to Storage, a couple of propane tanks mounted vertically and heavily insulated should do it.

Run the heat from the OWB into storage.

From the storage I would have three systems, one to the house, one to the garage, one for hot water.

Then I could burn that Boiler flat out as and when my storage dropped low.

Boiler will operate as designed.
You should see a reduction in wood used.

Cost should not be that significant if you DIY. Or have a friends who can weld/plumb and owe you one.

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 12, 2014, 03:06:33 PM
There has been countless situations where I've spent hours on the phone, road, emails fixing problems I never saw a dime for. 

Sprinter,  it's like this, if I can help him by putting him connection with the right people and help it happen in a productive manner, I still will.  The posts were all about trying to get the info out of him and he takes it out on us,  and starts with saying he wants to be a dick and get lawyers involved, his words not mine

I think since then he realizes things got out of hand and that's fine, I don't have no hard feelings towards him and realize some people get bent out of shape in these situations.  But it never helps.

There has been countless pm back and fourth with me and several members on the forum here talking about how we could help him etc.

But I don't pretend to do anything
     

 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 12, 2014, 06:35:53 PM
I do not know where there is a 81. There is interstate 80. I am 15 north of it. And 15 mins from 79
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 12, 2014, 06:48:21 PM
Whats ur number?  On Monday im calling your dealer and ill relay back to you whats said, ill also contact profab to hear what there hearing from the dealer
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 11:15:13 PM


Storage helps in ALL boiler applications, whether it be as small as a 30 gal buffer or 2000 gallons. The most efficient boilers in the world use them regardless of fuel source. As soon as you have a battery you eliminate the sizing problems so many complain about.

Excuse my ignorance, but if Spyders problems are from an already oversized boiler wouldn't adding more heat storage make it worse? Granted if he was heating up a thousand gallons it would burn longer, but wouldn't the idle times also be longer? Unless of course you added enough storage to treat it as a Garn and just fired once a day.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 13, 2014, 04:59:04 AM
That's exactly what I'm thinking, I'm also thinking with a bit of help to run it from the good folks on here he might be ok.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: martyinmi on April 13, 2014, 06:26:49 AM


Storage helps in ALL boiler applications, whether it be as small as a 30 gal buffer or 2000 gallons. The most efficient boilers in the world use them regardless of fuel source. As soon as you have a battery you eliminate the sizing problems so many complain about.

Excuse my ignorance, but if Spyders problems are from an already oversized boiler wouldn't adding more heat storage make it worse? Granted if he was heating up a thousand gallons it would burn longer, but wouldn't the idle times also be longer? Unless of course you added enough storage to treat it as a Garn and just fired once a day.
The goal of mass storage is to build a fire, let it burn full out to get your storage up to temperature, then heat your home from the thermal mass you've stored.
Some folks can go a few days before they need to build a new fire. The ones who burn year round to heat their DHW in the summer can sometimes get away with one burn/week.
I have a couple friends employ mass storage. It works really well for them in their particular situations.
I'm not sure how it would work for me with my work schedule.
I like being able to just throw a few pieces in before work and a few more in after work.

If Spyder had 2000 gallons of storage in his home, he could more then likely get away with building one fire to charge his storage every other day, or even every third day. It would all depend on his heat load. In theory, with the boiler not smoldering anymore, the issues he's having should go away.

 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 13, 2014, 09:40:27 AM
Some questions on your storage. How can you have the burner off if the manual says the temp can't drop below 150? And also keep it from  freezing? I was going to put in a 80 hot water tank and have the garage pull from it.
Here is some pictures, I already tried to send them once but it failed, so trying again.
White pex is 1" comes from boiler to inside, then it has a T and splits off, one goed to the exchanger in the furance, the other goes to the Plate it is a AIC m#LB31-10XJ. The blue is the DHW(80gallon), goes from plate to a pump then over to a T on the inlet of HWT, HWT outlet has a T and runs back to the plate. This was before they tryed to install a mixing valve. Epic fail. ran out of water in one shower and I told them it was wrong. Also tried hooking up the DHW pump to the t-stat on HWT and I also said that was going to work since the HWT is 220 and pump is 110. So these are pics of it now.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 13, 2014, 09:43:29 AM
Also to the comment that was made about it being Plugged up. Yes it is. I informed them i was letting it run due to not fronting the electric bill. And to keep it from turning into a block of ice, then I would be getting blamed for that. So yep it's a plugged up..
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 13, 2014, 10:24:13 AM
You dont have to keep fire in it to keep it from freezing...  The circulation of water in and out of the home is plenty to stop that.

Slim, my thougths on storage was something we discussed when we met, the nastiest time for the indoor enviroment in a boiler is the start up and def the sharp cut off, if he were to add storage he wouldnt have all these short inefficent burns but rather longer hotter burns.   

Spyder, if you did storage there is a dozen ways to keep your boiler from freezing, its not an issue really, as matter of fact if there was no heat being drawn off it would likely stay above 160 for all day..


Perhaps, if thats not feasible he can just load it much lighter than he has been and not go for killer burn times until his additional sq footage is added. 

Spyder, im not following how the problem you have is affecting your tube cleaning.  I would getnon top of that before it gets any worse.  The dealer if he ever does do anything will def not clean your tubes as hell say its your job to do maintenance, empyre wont pay that ant thought either.  I would just do it before it gets worse and ptentially damages something.  Lets make it clear im not saying its right or wrong but just saying chances of the dealer doing it are slim to none

do you want me to call your dealer and Pro fab, im going to need some information if u do
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 13, 2014, 10:40:37 AM
I just wrote a long reply and somehow a previous post was used, never had that happen on any other board.

You can use a Glycol mix is you want absolute freeze protection.

Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: woodman on April 13, 2014, 01:01:19 PM
Not trying to be mean but you need to cut that plumbing off where it enters the house, and redo everything from the start. List what you are trying to heat and we can give you a layout of how it should be setup.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 13, 2014, 07:01:28 PM
The holes in the air box is not letting the large amounts of air in. So it just smoldered. Causing large amounts of cresoide to build.
I wrapped it in metal duct tape. It shut down as of yesterday. And have leaks in the plumbing at the stove now it's cooled down. Grrr
I will be heating the house 1800sqf. And the garage is 28x32. With 28x16 upstairs. In progress now
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 13, 2014, 07:12:52 PM
This is a bad scenario for sure, even with your addition thats not much of a load on the boiler.  For example belknap here on the forum has a pro 400 heating 7200 sq ft in New hampshire
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 13, 2014, 08:29:41 PM
Could u send me a pm with your name, address, phone number, serial number.  Dealer name and number as well, I want to have all the info in one spot when I call
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 14, 2014, 05:02:04 AM
You got mail.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 14, 2014, 07:38:48 AM
Ive not recieved anything??
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 14, 2014, 12:56:48 PM
Been in contact with some folks this morning, still didn't get your Email tho

I'll let you know what I've found out later today
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 14, 2014, 04:43:26 PM
Slimjim has the info.
The dealer sent me a email saying he is tryin to find another welder.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 14, 2014, 05:14:18 PM
Any thoughts on a long term solution?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 14, 2014, 05:59:36 PM
Ok...  Lets start by saying ive spent a few hours on the phone today dealing with all parties I could find involved..

I have spoken with profab as well as tomeo farms the dealer.  I also spoke with an independent contractor that wws hired by the insurance ccompany of Spyder when he was pursuing an insurance claim from his insurance company. 

This is what I have gathered...   On February 26 a warranty claim came into Pro fab regarding the fan duct catching fire amd creating a blow torch effect that burned the insulation, also burned through the exterior siding of the unit.  On feb 28 all parts that were damaged due to the creosoted duct catching fire were sent to tomeo farms. 

The insurance company of Spyder contacted a large well known dealer in pa to come and take a look at the unit.  Mr Giles came to look at the unit and said in no way was this a warranty issue but rather a warranty claim.  It was stated that Spyder was burning Wood that was freshly cut and not seasoned at all.  He was operating the furnace by opening lower reaction chamber and allowing it to updraft

emails were exchanged with profab about the installer havin the water to hot domestically, profab insisted he shut down the boiler.  As it was supposed to be shut down the moment it had the claim filed to prevent further damage. 

Empyre and tomeo farms sent a welder to fix the issue, the welder apparently backed out when the words lawsuit and suing were thrown around.

As of now tomeo farms and empyre are trying to find another welder to correct the issue, they are of course are proceeding with caution because threats of law suits and other threats have been made, that seems to have been the concern all along

In regard to sizing of the boiler, tomeo farms didnt do the evaluation of sizing as the customer showed up saying I want a pro 400.  Upon delivery they encouraged the boiler neeeded at least 5-6k square ft to work properly.   this is where the garage addition was supposed to get it into that range

Empyre and tomeo farms are working to correct issue that was on the original warranty claim, the problem is that the problem grew worse because of the continued operation of the boiler in a way it was never intended.  That part neither will be responsible for

This is what ive gathered, dont shoot the messenger, empyre was seemingly prompt and thorough in the warrant claim.  The dealer says once Spyder picked up the parts it was a couple weeks before he heard anything, he assumed the customer fixed it himself rather than waiting as at this time it should have been a simple repair, a new fan and wiring was also sent as well

So we all saw spyders half, this is the other parts

Spyder did run out of seasoned Wood and did buy a load of green logs, even if the boiler is fixed,  it will never operate correctly or provide any quality of service.

We will follow this to see whats done, but all parties involved are not happy about how its played out

Hopefully, this can be resolved and evreryone can be happy


Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 14, 2014, 06:04:29 PM
Any thoughts on a long term solution?

Not really.....   What sucks to me is we cant fix the problem because the focus is on the symptoms.

But im willing to assist in any way I can, a huge step that would likely help is not taking advantage of the huge unit.  Dont put in 24 hours worth simply because u can, and burn properly seasoned wood
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 14, 2014, 06:45:10 PM
I my once again Scott. Once again you blame me.
First off I can show you a receipt of when these logs have been sitting here.
Second those were for 2014/15 season.
I was never informed to shut it Down until I was told by Ron g that it was installed wrong and those high temps need to be fixed. I informed TOMEO and Warren Conley I was not shutting it down. Due to heating my home. Would you not heat your home?
Sat when the welder called me. He already said "I told my wife I feel like I will be the middle man and don't want any part of it". I asked him to look anyhow. And said. " if I fix it and something else goes wrong. I will get blamed" NOT BY ME BUT MATT.
There was Not one said about ENCOURAGING 5/6k. I came home it was sitting there.
Did I walk in saying I would like a probab? YES I DID. Why my friend had one. BUT what am I to know about sizing!!!  I bet you ask Good talking Matt on how to do one he could not.
That should have been his job. How about you tell me you want to by a VW bug and I put you in a tractor trailor?
Matt is covering his ass because he is the one who got the last guy sued! Look that one up. Mr Scott
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 14, 2014, 07:17:05 PM
The one thing that can be agreed is that there was no design guidance, so that closes out that route.

So the Boiler can be cleaned and repaired and made to function as it is designed.

To be honest if I was the Welder I would have walked as well. Just not worth it.

I presume part loading would help, but not solve the issue.

The simplest solution would be to trade out for a smaller one, one that would be the right size.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 14, 2014, 08:54:53 PM
Good post for theboiler
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 14, 2014, 08:58:59 PM
Im not blaming anyone, just saying what I was told.

Im sure u bought the logs, like u said, when u run out u have to do something.  My only advise is when u do run out u have to find a seasoned wood source, burning Wood that wet in any gasser will be a disaster

Spyder, this isnt a good situation for anyone involved.  I did want to hear all sides of the matter to see if u were getting the shaft.  you absolutely did have a warranty claim issue.  I agree it needs to be fixed, but the part I disagree with you on is the additional damage after the warranty claim was filed, if u have an issue with something that uses air to ignite fuel it has to be right or things get further damaged.  Perhaps you thought if the boiler got worse it would help you with an insurance claim or stove replacement im not sure.   

But I do feel we should be able to disagree on some aspects like we can agree on others
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 14, 2014, 09:04:14 PM
The one thing that can be agreed is that there was no design guidance, so that closes out that route.

So the Boiler can be cleaned and repaired and made to function as it is designed.

To be honest if I was the Welder I would have walked as well. Just not worth it.

I presume part loading would help, but not solve the issue.

The simplest solution would be to trade out for a smaller one, one that would be the right size.

Yes sir, thats what the welders will say.  They get scared off and say its not worth 125 bucks when there has been threats of lawsuits made.  Why risk it?

The smalller loads of seasoned Wood would be a huge step in right direction, but not a true fix. 

If he had thr pro 200, things would be much better, but even it will not withstand Wood thats not properly seasoned.  thats a point we dealers all struggle with.  We always have customers who want efficiency, but dont want to inherit the cost of the efficiency, for example one cost would be you dont have the luxury of burning what you want, if you run out you eirher quit burning or buy seasoned Wood. 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 14, 2014, 10:04:46 PM
Shame it got to this.

I just looked on the Manufacturer web site and it is better than most on the specifications. Mind you 90% efficient?

http://profab.org/product.php?id=4 (http://profab.org/product.php?id=4)

Makes you wonder how many 400's are sold, can not be that many for residential use.

Even the 200 could be pushing it.

All it would have taken would be for a glance at the Brochure by the Customer, the Dealer saying something instead of just taking the order, even the installer might have been wondering what was going on. If that thing can pump out 330,000btus it is going to be using 1 1/2 -2" Pex? Much bigger than the House, whatever.

No doubt a lot more wood was used than needed with the 400 smouldering all winter.

As an aside I have wood left that is too dry, even with snow sitting on it. For next year I will have to mix it.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 14, 2014, 10:16:17 PM
Look at the 12 hour burn, 150,000 btu.  His house may be using 50k on a bad winter day

Id say that eff reading is from the old testing procedures....  Not accurate in my opinion
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 15, 2014, 04:55:52 AM
So you have seen my install pics. And I have a burnere that's to big. And I am in the wrong?  The installer and dealer so up to a insurance claim and yell " it's installed wrong" and there the ones setting off lawsuits.
If the dealer would have got off his ass and came out to fix the issue it would not have been so bad. You act like I tossed my hands up and left it! Did you once ask if I did anything?  I kept cleaning tossing in proformer. I even wrapped the metal in metal duct tape. And it Held!
All that is happen is blame blame. So where is your we can help YOU. That you claim.
Call the dealer up and act like you want to buy a burner and see what you get!
Theboiler thank you for reading and having a Open mind. And not a oneway street.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 15, 2014, 05:00:22 AM
You act like everyone is to be a expert in btu now. 1 1/5 pex chaulk up another epic install fail! Now wonder the industry has a bad rep. Blame the consumer. And shaft them from money.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 15, 2014, 06:39:55 AM
You act like everyone is to be a expert in btu now. 1 1/5 pex chaulk up another epic install fail! Now wonder the industry has a bad rep. Blame the consumer. And shaft them from money.

Spyder...  For the love of God son.  Just because someone explains btu does not mean there blaming you or expecting you to understand this.  But Spyder, your not the only one that comes here, people need to know how importsnt sizing of a gasser is.  We here want folks to burn wood, period!   We can actually discuss why you had issues or we can simply rant and raise hell.  But the point is still many folks will see this and realize not to make the same mistakes, therefore it will help bring up the Wood burning industry as a whole.

Obviously there is a lot of gray area as far as the claim and timing of how it played iut, but empyre was prompt in getting the kit out.  The only thing you did that I will fully say wasnt good was running it while it was torn up. 

No one has to be blamed for this to get worked out, at some point people gotta pull there undies up and say ok, lets just get it fixed.  But no one will do anything as long as threats are being made, it just scares them away. 


By offering help, I didnt say a new boiler, and youd have to agree you heard more about it yesterday than you had been, just stay calm and cooler heads will prevail



Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 15, 2014, 01:07:20 PM
I am cool Scott. I am. I am taking it all in. It comes across wrong. All typing..Please don't take it wrong..
So what I have learned in my instance is Sizing is wrong, it calls for 1.5" pex from inside to boiler not 1". inside is a hack job. In order for me to have a Good working system is one sized to fit, get the proper install on the inside. I also learned that those close 90* are not good. A long radius is best. Will the 1" underground pex be ok for me? All I want is to walk around in shorts in the winter. I hate pants and blankets :) Long steamy showers after being on a rooftop all day.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 15, 2014, 01:33:34 PM
I am cool Scott. I am. I am taking it all in. It comes across wrong. All typing..Please don't take it wrong..
So what I have learned in my instance is Sizing is wrong, it calls for 1.5" pex from inside to boiler not 1". inside is a hack job. In order for me to have a Good working system is one sized to fit, get the proper install on the inside. I also learned that those close 90* are not good. A long radius is best. Will the 1" underground pex be ok for me? All I want is to walk around in shorts in the winter. I hate pants and blankets :) Long steamy showers after being on a rooftop all day.

The 90 degree fittings u have are equivalent to 10 ft of pex.   Do the refrigeration 90 create less head, yes, but ur system isnt complex enough that a pump cant be sized to handle what your doing

The 1.5 In pex would be needed if u had a home that required far more heat than your home does.  I think your undergroud is fine.  I would though do away with the 10 plate and put perhaps a 20 In line with your Furnace coil, or perhaps do a sidearm instead of the 20 plate.  Keeping the return temps proper is crucial, but the optimzer on ur stove will correct it to some degree. 


Id like to hear others ideas on the thoughts of storage tho as a long term solution.  I know slim May not like the idea but there are others here who are a Big fan of storage. 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: TheBoiler on April 15, 2014, 03:24:01 PM
I think you mentioned earlier that your job involves Air Conditioning. It is not that different, you size systems according to load. Bigger pipes, bigger ducts, sort of similar.

The bigger the pipe the more heat that can be pumped through it. 1" pipe is fine for most normal residential loads, 1 1/2" pipe can transfer more than twice the heat assuming all other factors are equal. If it was intended to run this Boiler flat out all the time I would go to 2". My guess is that this would be an unusual install so 1 1/2" fittings is fine to heat what it was designed to heat.

A friend of mine has an old 20 room hotel, colder location, worse insulation, his Gas Boiler is about the same size as yours, hopefully that describes how grossly over sized your Boiler is.

A gas boiler can modulate, switch on and off, a gas boiler of that size in your house might only run for 5 minutes every hour.

With cord wood you can not turn it on and off, you have to compromise.

The default compromise you did last winter was to let the wood smoulder, produces less heat and lots of crap and the Boiler does not like it. None do, but this type especially does not like it.

We are where we are, so the issue is really what to do next.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 15, 2014, 07:12:44 PM
I do work in the a/c field. But the sizing thing does not involve me. I just fix what is there on our own locations. Hot and cold food items. Petroleum dispensers. Computer systems. Everything you see at a c-store. So when you talk btu/sizing sounds like Chinese. 
I was reading once again the manual. It states the pump should be in the lowest part of the line from boiler to the inside system. Yet mine is mounted to the back of the boiler. From what I have found these pumps can push not pull, is this correct? It also shows the optimizer located away from the boiler. And there should be a mandatory low temp fail safe installed. Guessing I also do not have that.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 15, 2014, 07:23:42 PM
Also my boiler water is running through my exchanger in the furnace. It is treated with the water treatment. If it is switched that stuff is like a coating correct? And would then get flushed through. O what a mess.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 15, 2014, 07:41:56 PM
Your pump location is fine, you do have a boiler protection device, its the optimizer located on the back of your unit.

As far as boiler treatment causing a mess, im not following where your going there???? 
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 15, 2014, 07:44:33 PM
I wasn't following that either?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 15, 2014, 07:53:24 PM
On the bottle it says it leaves a protective coating on the metal. A film.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 15, 2014, 07:54:51 PM
What do you mean if it is switched, that's where I was lost?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 15, 2014, 08:17:14 PM
Yes Scott said to run the furance exchanger off the heat plate with the dhw. My boiler water runs through my furance now. So it has treated water in the furance exchanger
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 15, 2014, 08:22:56 PM
I'm not sure what he meant by that but your dhw will always be separate from boiler water, does it currently go through your plate exchanger before it gets to your furnace coil?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 15, 2014, 08:45:01 PM
My personal opinion is run your supply from the boiler through the plate exchanger get rid of those tees I don't see them as necessary, and then from plate exchanger go to your furnace coil.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 15, 2014, 08:46:05 PM
This is another example.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 15, 2014, 08:53:54 PM
And based off what I read is the domestic water that supplies the plate exchanger heated before it goes through the plate exchanger?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 16, 2014, 04:30:35 AM
I'm not sure what he meant by that but your dhw will always be separate from boiler water, does it currently go through your plate exchanger before it gets to your furnace coil?
No the dhw does not. But if is changed over to what your saying. Buy running the dhw through furance.
I guess my question is. Does the water treatment make a film on the metal?
If it is running now through my furance exchanger then switch it off and just use the dhw. Will that nasty stuff mess up stuff or toxic. If so then I need to just keep the boiler water running through it.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 16, 2014, 05:28:37 AM
You dhw flows past the boiler supplied hot water in the plate exchanger, your domestic water absorbs heat through the plates the boiler water and domestic never mix, so let's say your water is 180 at the plate exchanger the after your domestic gets its heat from it goes to the furnace coil at maybe 160 degrees ( that temp is just a guess) but again what ever treatments you have in your boiler water never gets mixed with domestic water. Someone else will maybe help me explain it if that is not making sense.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: woodman on April 16, 2014, 06:29:33 AM
You never use boiler water for potable water.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Scott7m on April 16, 2014, 06:38:56 AM
Its 2 seperate loops....  They never mix
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Spyder5276 on April 16, 2014, 04:48:32 PM
I understand they never mix. Your not getting what I am trying to ask.
Does the boiler water go through the furance heat exchanger?
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: slimjim on April 16, 2014, 05:32:20 PM
I don't have my glasses right now but best I can tell it comes in from the wood boiler to the water to air exchanger and then to the plate exchanger for domestic and then returns to the wood boiler
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: Jwood on April 16, 2014, 06:45:39 PM
Yes boiler water through heat exchanger in the furnace.
Title: Re: ProFab has some issues!
Post by: rclay1981 on April 17, 2014, 08:46:10 AM
I CAME ACROSS THIS AND THOUGHT I WOULD POST THE LINK SINCE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WATER STORAGE
http://www.ahona.com/prod_waterstorage.html (http://www.ahona.com/prod_waterstorage.html)