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Author Topic: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF  (Read 9944 times)

oaky

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2014, 07:36:23 AM »

The water temperature varies in the water jacket in various areas?

oaky

Yes, in some stoves like I said I've seen it be 50 degrees

  Also, don't simply assume there is no internal plumbing inside ur boiler, because on a lot of different boilers there is pipe that put the water where they want it to go.  Most returns will extend over the top of the firebox towards the front of the stove.

I'm not certain how the internal plumbing is designed in the BL series. This may be the reason why P&M want the return connection on the bottom?

oaky
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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2014, 08:57:04 AM »

Water returns to the bottom always..Thats for any system

Right on, P&M is a good boiler , you'd be smart following their recommendations over some "theoretical better idea".  Short circuiting the supply flow to prevent problems is a bandaid fix for other design flaws. Whether its a bad boiler design or too large of a circulator that causes very high pressure differentials that lead to flash boiling.
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oaky

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2014, 06:42:13 AM »

I was wondering, if the water nearest the top is usually hotter, wouldn't it be better to draw the water from the top, this way, the water leaving the port, will about the same as the temp readout on the aqua-stat & you'll be getting the hottest water to the house?

It makes sense what LittleJohn had mentioned, if your circulating pump is constantly running, the water will always be mixing.

oaky
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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2014, 06:55:34 AM »

I may or may not be right here guys but I look at the boiler as a heat exchanger, the goal of any heat exchanger is to get the maximum exchange for the least amount of energy expended, this is why the returns always come back to the hottest or supply side, the greater the differential between the 2 waters the more effective the exchange, this again is why plate exchangers should always be plumbed in counter current flow, I look at the design and determine rather the top of the boiler or bottom is going to be the hottest and then plumb the returns to it.
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MattyNH

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 08:16:06 AM »

Matty, I beg to differ, I have seen and heard water boil inside OWB's, by returning to the hottest point of the boiler you automatically get the best heat exchange, sort of like why you plumb a plate exchanger in a countercurrent flow, that is the way to get the best and most efficient exchange, when you choose to run the boiler on an efficiency mindset with very low stack temps as well as very hot water temps, you come as close to boiling as you can without going over, by returning on the bottom of a gasser and top of a conventional you are returning to the hottest point,therefor getting the best heat exchange
Slim all conventional owb pull from the top and return to the bottom..My OWB is set up that way.. Everyone's else's that Ive been pulls from the tops...My oil boiler in the basement pulls from the top and returns to the bottom…The hottest part of the water is the top..Why would you wanna pull already "cooled" water from the bottom..Im talking about conventional OWB's.. Not gassers.. I understand the flame burns upside down..
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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 08:24:49 AM »

I may or may not be right here guys but I look at the boiler as a heat exchanger, the goal of any heat exchanger is to get the maximum exchange for the least amount of energy expended, this is why the returns always come back to the hottest or supply side, the greater the differential between the 2 waters the more effective the exchange, this again is why plate exchangers should always be plumbed in counter current flow, I look at the design and determine rather the top of the boiler or bottom is going to be the hottest and then plumb the returns to it.
Not to be nit-picky, but shouldn't that idea follow though into furnace returns as well, the return (kept at proper minimum temperature) should be injected into the jacket closest to the flame front, or hottest point of the furnace?

Neal
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slimjim

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 08:30:09 AM »

Again it is about the most efficient exchange of heat, I realize that most conventional's pull from the top, I am saying that either way is OK with me but I find the B-L series gets very hot in the top and for higher temps it may be better to return to the top on that model, all my 250's return to the bottom as that is the hotter area. Neal look at the burn chamber of an oil boiler, they typically return on the bottom and rear, they typically supply from the top front, same theory that I am promoting here.
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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2014, 08:54:17 AM »

Again it is about the most efficient exchange of heat, I realize that most conventional's pull from the top, I am saying that either way is OK with me but I find the B-L series gets very hot in the top and for higher temps it may be better to return to the top on that model, all my 250's return to the bottom as that is the hotter area. Neal look at the burn chamber of an oil boiler, they typically return on the bottom and rear, they typically supply from the top front, same theory that I am promoting here.
I think you and I are saying the same thing.  I was just trying to be clarify/understand that it wasn't necessarily a top or bottom issue, but an issue of the return going to the hottest point of the furnace.   :thumbup:

Neal
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slimjim

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2014, 09:14:47 AM »

Neal you are on the money.
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NaturallyAspirated

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2014, 09:21:25 AM »

Neal you are on the money.


Money troll! 

Neal
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 09:24:55 AM by NaturallyAspirated »
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slimjim

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2014, 09:25:46 AM »

Neal, seriously, do you grow fruit trees?
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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2014, 09:28:23 AM »

Neal, seriously, do you grow fruit trees?
I'm planting some Honeycrisp apple trees this summer (seriously).  Buying them at the store is more spendy that a bad cocaine habit and Obama's taxing combined!

I'd like to try some pears too.   :thumbup:

Neal
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oaky

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2014, 09:31:25 AM »

Again it is about the most efficient exchange of heat, I realize that most conventional's pull from the top, I am saying that either way is OK with me but I find the B-L series gets very hot in the top and for higher temps it may be better to return to the top on that model, all my 250's return to the bottom as that is the hotter area. Neal look at the burn chamber of an oil boiler, they typically return on the bottom and rear, they typically supply from the top front, same theory that I am promoting here.

I should have mentioned in my first post, that I wanted advice,te return would be best on top or bottom, pertaining only to the P&M BL OWF's.

I appreciate all your comments & they all are valid. I guess my main concern is keeping the condensation down to a minimum on the surface of the firebox. After installing my BL & starting it up this fall, I intend to run my high temp at, 180 F with a differential of 10 degrees.

Slimjim, your point is well taken, may I ask, with the new BL series, that include refratory cement on the bottom third of the firebox sidewalls & ends including fire bricks onte grates, would the return water heat up more quickly closest to the refractory cement (bottom), as the refractory cement & fire bricks will retain a quite a bit of heat, even at idle? My dealer had recommended having the return to the top, he had said the water at the top is the hottest so when the cooler water return, the extra heated water will act as a buffer incoming cooled water.

I want what is best for my large investment & to be good to my stove. After manufacturing P&M conventional OWF's for 30 years, I would think by now they would have worked out all the clinkers & pretty certain they have. I'm thinking it may be best if I go by their recommendation on water line hookup

oaky
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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2014, 09:35:57 AM »

I just spoke with Brian about this and he agrees with my way of thinking, either way is OK but they will be changing the manual to read return to the top as it helps with any boiling, simply something that we did not experience until they were in the field and running hard this winter.
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oaky

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Re: Water return on top or bottom port of OWF
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2014, 09:38:38 AM »

Thanks slimjim, I appreciate it. Have a great weekend.

oaky
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