Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Shaver Furnace => Topic started by: gandgracing on May 12, 2008, 07:26:37 PM

Title: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on May 12, 2008, 07:26:37 PM
My boiler sweats alot and the insulation gets wet.  I'm wandering if I can replace the fiberglass insulation with the spray foam type that I have seen that the Central Boiler has.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: bartman on July 07, 2008, 07:13:22 PM
Is the sweating on a shaver stove? Also what is your overvall view of it along with the pros and cons.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on July 10, 2008, 06:29:15 PM
Yes its on a Shaver.  Read the other post I wrote in the Shaver section.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: jcappe on October 09, 2008, 10:45:44 AM
I may be wrong but just what I'm thinking if the furnace is sweating alot you probably wouldn't want to do the spray foam just for the simple fact that the moisture wouldn't be able to escape at all then.  Just my thought on it.  :-\
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on October 10, 2008, 02:51:13 AM
I took the plunge and took the stove apart to do the spray insulation.  After getting it apart I discovered that they didn't weld the front of the top plate for the tank which let all the steam out into the roof.  Also found that the cold water return lines are not usable on the stove.  The cold water dumps into the same chamber that the pumps draw from.  I had found this out from a guy who deals with Shaver and I guess that about a dozen got sent out this way.  My fix was to run the cold water return up through the top plate all the way to the front of the stove.  It cost me $380 for the spray insulation that I did myself and even reused the old insuation.  The stove looks kind of puffy with the sides on and all that insulation,  but it shouldn't loose any heat.  Also insulated the back door.  This thing must of been made on a Monday or Friday.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: charlie on October 11, 2008, 06:27:48 PM
Gandgracing, I would have left the stove apart, and showed the dealer or factory what was wrong with the stove. Got my money back, and had them pick up the stove. If they had a problem with that, I'd be eatin dinner at their house ,every night ,with a few of my friends. Thats taking someones hard earned money if you ask me. You don't buy something brand new to work on it. Bet there will be problems down the road if you hang onto that. Probaly just voided your warranty by putting spray insulation on it. Good Luck! It wouldn't be staying in my neck of the woods! Charlie
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on October 15, 2008, 06:30:58 PM
Been trying to talk with them all Summer.  No response.  Just decided to make it right myself.  Shouldn't have went so cheap from the beginning.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: charlie on October 15, 2008, 06:47:57 PM
I'd be knocking on their door in person. Plane, train or car >:( Better Business Bureau. The first option usually gets their attention. You were good enough to buy their product, They should be good enough to make things right.Maybe a good door knocking will get the news media involved, then people will know about their shady practices. I wouldn't give in!  I'd expose what their doing anyway you can. Good luck.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on October 20, 2008, 10:47:18 PM
Well the house was sitting at around 63 degrees so I decided to start the stove.  Started a fire,  heated the water and then heated the house to around 70.  All was working well,  water was up to temp and so was the house.  Then about 2-3 hrs later the water started boiling ( fan wasn't on and fan door was half open) and here comes the steam.  The whole inside of the stove (insulation and roof) was soaked.  Had to open the rear door to let it air out.  Why is this happening?
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: charlie on October 21, 2008, 07:54:08 AM
If the draft door is stuck open, the stove will over fire once up to temp. It will continue to burn until there is no more fuel available. The stove is running away.  Like I said , you will most likely continue to have problems with that stove. I would do whatever you had to, to get my money back. Wait until it's blowing out and 10 degrees with a wind chill of below zero, and you have to deal with the problems. I'd do something now.  Glad I bought a Woodmaster. Call the Better Business Bureau!
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: PhinPhan on October 21, 2008, 08:22:28 AM
You should return this, get your money back or anything.  You may have voided your warranty though with the spray foam.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on October 23, 2008, 01:42:10 PM
Well the house was sitting at around 63 degrees so I decided to start the stove.  Started a fire,  heated the water and then heated the house to around 70.  All was working well,  water was up to temp and so was the house.  Then about 2-3 hrs later the water started boiling ( fan wasn't on and fan door was half open) and here comes the steam.  The whole inside of the stove (insulation and roof) was soaked.  Had to open the rear door to let it air out.  Why is this happening?
  Did you seal around the pottable hot water coil access cover with silocone?  I think it explains this in the owners manual. But even if you did seal it up around the access cover if the water boils, steam will leak around the cover.  Fix your water boiling problem, make sure the cover is sealed and you will be ok
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on October 23, 2008, 01:48:46 PM
 Also I had to set my thermostat down to about 160 on my stove to keep the water from boiling. I monotored the stove closely the first time I fired it, as soon as I heard the water just start to boil I turned the thermostat on the stove down untill the fan shut off then turned it down a hair further. Haven't had a problem since but this is my first year with it.  So hope it works well this winter.  Also I only leave the fan cover open aprox 1/3
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: willieG on October 23, 2008, 04:32:15 PM
i am not sure how your stove works but it sounds like the fan soor is open a bit to ensure the fire does not smother completely out..by adding insulation you created less heat loss so the air you letinto the stove when the blower is off needs to be reduced to match the amount of heat loss you have now   well at least  that is what i think is happening and that is purely a guess
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on October 23, 2008, 04:50:04 PM
 That is how the shaver works, willie could be right on, I would want to (babysit) the stove and find out if the water is boiling before the forced draft fan shuts off or after, I know how discouraging it can be to buy something new and have trouble :bash:  hang in there you'lle figure it out. So far am am very satisfied with my shaver 165, I hope I feel the same next spring  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on October 26, 2008, 06:49:59 PM
Well after that day that it sweat so much it hasn't done it since.  I also turned the pump on to run all the time.  To keep the water circulating.  Yoda, do you have your pump running all the time or with the furnace?  Also do you rake all your coals up over the grate when you add wood and how much wood do you add?  Thanks for replying, all. 
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on October 27, 2008, 02:29:15 PM
 I did wire mine so the pump runs all the time, after reading about other brands online and talking to people it seems thats the way most of the owb do it, I also thought it just made more sense since my stove sits aprox 125 feet from the house I didn't want my forced air furnace to blow cold air untill the hot water made it from the stove to the house. May also help from getting hot spots and boiling. (It makes sense to me and the voices in my head agree) ;D
  I do ussually rake the coals over the grate and fill it pretty full with aprox. 24 inch logs,  I noticed it works better if I don't push the logs all the way back to the back of the stove, instead I leave them as far forward as possible so they sit over the grate, also then the chimney isn't always in the way. But then you can only use logs up to about 24 inches. Hope this helps
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: willieG on October 27, 2008, 05:33:19 PM
i also run my pump 24/7 during the heat season as I heat all domestic water during that time...when I light my stove for the winter I shut my water heater off at the electric panel and circulate my furnace water through my home made exchanger 24/7

Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on October 27, 2008, 08:39:15 PM
Thanks guys for all your help!  Stove has been working the best it ever has.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: charlie on October 28, 2008, 06:15:18 AM
Great! :thumbup:
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on October 28, 2008, 12:37:38 PM
gandgracing, how many times do you have to load your stove? I've been loading mine 3 times a day, it's not very cold out yet, I'm a little concerned when it gets below zero It's not going to burn all night. Although I'm burning soft wood right now, saving my birch and maple for when it gets cold. Does anyone have experience with the shaver165 in cold climates?Expected burn times etc.? Will birch and maple burn considerably longer than pine,poplar,cottonwood?
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: willieG on October 28, 2008, 05:07:18 PM
gandgracing, how many times do you have to load your stove? I've been loading mine 3 times a day, it's not very cold out yet, I'm a little concerned when it gets below zero It's not going to burn all night. Although I'm burning soft wood right now, saving my birch and maple for when it gets cold. Does anyone have experience with the shaver165 in cold climates?Expected burn times etc.? Will birch and maple burn considerably longer than pine,poplar,cottonwood?
Yoda, try this link for BTU's in different woods

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_wood_heat_value_BTU.html

three times a day may not be excessive if you are heating a large area...most foks around me (southern ontario canada)  get by on two fill ups a day in the dead of winter

what you call "fill" and what others consider "fill" may be different things
and teh area you heat may be more or less

my house is a story and a half older (100 year) brick home although i have reinsulated and added on to the old shack a time or two it is what i would consider an average insulated home

now it comes in at about 1900 square feet with upstairs and a full basement  we heat this to 72 all winter plus domestic hot water and a 30 x 40 is kept above freezing (around 50) we do this on 2 fill ups a day (my fill up is normally what doesn't spill out of a wheel barrow) and i burn mostly  dead elm trees, dried 2 years that have around 20 million BTU per cord

here in Ontario the government heat aheet says it takes on average to heat an "older ontario home of average size" (not sure what average means) about 100,000,000 BTU a heat season if you look at white pine on the chart that would work out to about 10 cords a year..if youhad black locust it would only be about 5 cords

an if you compare your pine to birch and maple you will see there is quite a bit of difference in usable BTUs

i hope the link works and it helps you understand  better the  heat value in your wood
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on November 02, 2008, 12:47:05 AM
Last year when it wasn't working so well I would fill it at 5 pm.  Then my wife would fill it at 9 or 10 pm and then when I would get home at 6 am it would be out of wood and the water below 100 degrees.  Couple of weeks ago at about 30 degrees been filling it 2 times a day and I am happy with that.  Last couple of days its been up to 60 degrees out and I haven't put any wood in for 2 days and the fan still hasn't came on.  Its really holding the heat in now.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on November 10, 2008, 12:24:11 AM
Well thought I would give an update since its down to around 30 degrees outside.  Cant believe how much better this thing is working.  I can fill it full around 4 pm before I go to work and it still has wood in it the next morning at 6:30 and the fan isn't even on.  Finally got it dialed in.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: PhinPhan on November 10, 2008, 09:29:34 AM
Great news gandgracing!  Good to hear everything is working now.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on November 10, 2008, 07:33:52 PM
Well thought I would give an update since its down to around 30 degrees outside.  Cant believe how much better this thing is working.  I can fill it full around 4 pm before I go to work and it still has wood in it the next morning at 6:30 and the fan isn't even on.  Finally got it dialed in.
Do you think it made a big difference insulating it ? or did you just get the hang of how to use it better, load it etc?
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on November 10, 2008, 08:14:18 PM
 Ok I'm a little concerned, I was out of town hunting this last weekend and had my father in law stop by twice a day to fill my stove for me. Before I left I had turned my thermostat down to aprox 58.  When I got home all was well, It had been about 12 hours since my father inlaw had filled it. I had a nice bed of hot coals water temp. according to my infrared thermometer was aprox 165 the fan was off. I filled the stove with wood, went in the house, turned the thermostat up to 68. Also my wife did 4 loads of laundry, ( I do use the pottable hot water coil for heating my DHW) It was about 25 degrees outside and very windy. Anyway within about an hour it had raised the temp in the house to 65 but by this time the water temp had dropped to 125 and it seamed to be struggling to bring the temp up any higher. The forced draft fan was on and the fire looked to be burning good, so I turned on my propane furnace to help bring it up to 68 degrees, then I turned the propane furnace off.  I went to bed around 10:30 I was having trouble sleeping, half listening for my forced air furnace fan kicking on and off, finally I got up at 12;30 and went down to the basement, it was keeping the house at 68, but my water temp was still only 125. I went outside and checked my boiler and the forced draft fan was on and the fire was burning pretty good. I loaded up the boiler again went in the house, turned on the propane furnace, brought the house up to 71, turned off the propane, left the fan for the furnace set at 68 thinking this would give the boiler a chance to raise the water temp and "catch up" Went to bed, finally fell asleep at about 2, got up with the alarm at 6:30, house was at 68 water temp 165, wood almost gone but nice bed of hot coals.
 Does this sound normal? should I have left the thermostat at 68 when I left for the weekend? or used my propane furnace to bring up the temp in the house then turn it off? I guess i'm concerned when it gets -20 outside it may not keep up. Maybe it's much easier to maintain temp in the house than to raise it by 10 degrees. Maybe I'm just obsessive like my wife says  ???
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on November 14, 2008, 01:38:27 AM
I do think the insulation made a big difference.  I hardly ever see the fan on so it must be holding the heat.  I think thats normal on what you had to do to heat up the house from being that cold.  I even tried using my adjustable thermastat for the house ( colder during the day and warm up at night) but it seems to work better if I leave it at 73 all the time so the furnace comes on for about 20 mins. then shuts off.  If you let your house cool say 4 or 5 degrees then it takes a lot longer time to heat up and the boiler takes longer to react.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: ckbetz on November 14, 2008, 04:32:00 AM
Yoda, I've done a lot of reading on setting your thermostats and whether it's more efficient to keep them set at one temp or adjust them when you're not home.  Everything I've read is that it's better to adjust your thermostat because the amount of energy you use to get your house back up to temp is still less than you would have used to keep it at a constant temp when you're not there.  When companies do your energy demand calcs one very important input they use is delta T - the difference in temperature between the outside and inside your home.  The smaller the delta T, the less energy needed.  So what I'm guessing if everything is working fine is that your boiler was playing catch up and the net use of wood, even though you used a lot to get it back up to temp, would be less than if you kept your house a constant temp.  The question remains though whether your boiler has enough heating potential to keep your house warm when your delta T continues to get bigger.  I'd keep an eye on it during normal use before I'd get too excited.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: yoda on November 15, 2008, 04:30:11 PM
Thanks for the input, I quess I'll wait and see what it does when it gets really cold, doesn't do any good to worry about it at this point. And I figure even if I have to supplement with propane on extreme days it wouldn't be the end of the world, I'm still saving a butt load of propane. Grandgracing, do you think I will get more heat out of my shaver in extreme cold if I open the flapper on the forced draft blower more? or would I just use more wood?It's open about 1/3 now.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on November 15, 2008, 06:42:40 PM
My fan door is open around 1/3 also,  maybe little less than half.   Opening it all the way will make the fire bigger,  but when the fan shuts off it will still draw alot more air with it all the way open and continue to use up all the wood.  I have also looked up the specs on the fan compared to others and ours has around 50 cfm at a high rpm verses like 150 cfm at a lower rpm.  It seemed to me that with the high rpm's that it was sending at lot of heat out the chimney.  If you look at Hardy's fan set-up they have a fan like ours that lays sideways and has a selenoid that opens and shuts a door on the fan that I think would work on a Shaver.  I was going to go with this but my stove right now is working very good.  Another thing I have done different from last year is that I dont tighten the ash pan door that tight.  I leave it so I can slide the handle back and forth maybe an 1/8 of an inch.  I had read that in the owners manual.  Hope this helps you out some.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: fletcher0780 on November 19, 2008, 07:50:40 PM
gandgracing, Awesome idea on the insulation. Where did you get it, and how did you spray it on? Do you have any issues steaming out the vent pipe? How often does your fan come on compared to before you insulated it? My blower seems to run constantly when it's cold out.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on November 20, 2008, 09:56:42 PM
Seems like I keep making this thing better.  I have also found that trying to burn large pieces isn't as good as smaller ones.  I bought the foam insulation on Ebay.  Stripped all the metal off of it ( front, sides and inside on back).  Removed the insulation and saved it.  After that I started spraying.  I even filled the void so that air couldn't get under the stove.  After all the spaying was done I had to shave down some spots and then I put the insulation back on.The best choice I have made.  The fan hardly runs at all.  Last night I filled the stove at around 3:30.  It got to down to around 29 degrees with a wind and when I went to fill it the next morning at 6:30 after work the water was 160 with a setpoint of 140 and still some chunks of wood left.  I had a steaming problem until I made the pump run all the time.  One other thing I have discovered is when you go to fill it up with wood and its up to temp is to close the fan door for a while since the fire takes off so go with the door open.  It will stop the fire since its not needed for the time being.  And yes thats another trip to the stove,  but if its going to last for over 12 hrs I'm going to do it so I dont have to listen to the wife as she used to go and fill it before she went to bed.  If your stove is up to temp and the house calls for heat and shortly after that (5-15 minutes) the fan kicks on the cold water inlets to the stove might not be right as mine were not.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: fletcher0780 on November 21, 2008, 03:09:54 AM
I've modified my spare blower to work like the hardy one with a solenoid, going to install it this week and see what happens. How do I know if my cold return is in the wrong spot? I've got to remove the coil cover and reseal it, can I tell by looking in there? How difficult was it to remove the siding? I was thinking about pulling it off and cutting rigid pieces of 1-2" foam siding to fit between the framing. My blower runs constantly right now 30* during the day, 15* at night and my water temp won't get up past 160-170, I have it set for 180* on a real thermostat, not the shaver one. I have the Shaver 290* and use to heat my house/garage with a 100K BTU oil boiler with no problems, so I should have enough heat. I ordered my boiler in April and they built it in May (they were still pretty dead then). I'm starting to get tired of modifying this thing. Do you have more pics of yours disassembled?
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on November 21, 2008, 06:17:12 PM
Talking with the guy from Shaver last year he only sets his around 130*-140*. Mine is set at 140* and sometimes I see it overshoot to around 160*.  I have a temp gauge inside the house in the supply line. I knew something was wrong with mine when every time the house blower turned on,  the fan for the stove would also come on about 5 minutes later.  There is a 6 in chamber at the back of the tank that lets water come over the top to get to the pumps.  Well my cold water returns were dumping into that same chamber.  I dicovered this by draining the tank and spraying the garden hose into the return water ports. So I was only using about 20 of the 170 gallons of water.  Since then I did away with the copper tubing and ran my returns through the holes in the top plate with some steel piping all the way to the front and bottom of the tank. It has to get heated before it get back to the pumps. The rigid insulation will probably work and you could put whats already there over the top of it.  Also remember that the bottom has no insulation at all.  Let us no if the fan deal works out for you so I can do it myself.  I just hope it doesn't let the fire go out.  But I think it will work.  As for the temp I dont think I could keep enough wood in it to have the temperature at 180*.  Even though me neighbor does with his $10,000 Central boiler with 385 gal capacity,  but his will go out from time to time when mine has never went out.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: fletcher0780 on November 21, 2008, 08:22:26 PM
I've got to reseal my cover before I put my updated blower on, but I'll post a link. What type of heat do you have in your house? I have mostly radiant floor, but 1 zone of baseboard too. I'll try 150* once I get everything set. I really like my Ranco digital thermostat. How much insulation did you use? what model Shaver do you have?  Really no insulation on the bottom?
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on November 21, 2008, 09:56:51 PM
Its the 165 ( 170 gal) , 2000sf house and we keep it at 73* with a 22x22 heat exchanger on my furnace in Attica, Indiana.  205 bf of the spray insulation (kit on ebay) and I was able to still use all my existing insulation it came with.  Really no insulation on bottom.  Last year I could feel the bottom and it would be cold to the touch.  I was going to tilt the stove over a bit with a backhoe so I could spray the bottom,  but I decided to just fill in the void around the bottom with foam so cold air coudn't get underneath it.  The back door doesn't have any insulation either so I filled it with batting.  That made such a difference that you cant hear the fan running unless you open the door.  Also last year at this time I was filling it 4 times a day and still not keeping up.  This year 2 times a day and it doesn't loose temp.  One other thing about the spray insulation is that the tanks you spray from need to be warm and stay warm while spraying.  I would warm mine with an electric heater,  spray for a little bit and then have to warm them again.  Took me about 45 min all together.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: gandgracing on December 03, 2008, 10:12:14 PM
Heres a picture of my set-up.  Notice how my cold water return is.
Title: Re: Insulation
Post by: fletcher0780 on December 10, 2008, 11:50:25 AM
very nice. I got my cover resealed and my modified blower installed. So far so good and not water loss after 1 month.

(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n102/fletcher0780/IMGP3160.jpg)

(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n102/fletcher0780/IMGP3158.jpg)

(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n102/fletcher0780/IMGP3159.jpg)