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Author Topic: ready for some help with expansion  (Read 7902 times)

markpallen

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ready for some help with expansion
« on: February 20, 2017, 08:28:26 AM »

Ive been doing lots of reading , trying to answer my own questions but could sure use some  experienced input.
Currently my wood doctor (medium size, 250000 btu, 150 gal ) is serving only my house but I want to add heat to my garage. My set up as it is now :  OWF 125 feet from house fed by 1 in. kitek inground. There is a grundfos  UP 15-42 at the owf pumping hot water 125 ft into a 20 in x 20 in water to air exchanger in my oil furnace plenum. From there to a 48 in sidearm for dhw and then returns to the boiler thru another 1 in kitek pipe.
My thoughts are this: Id like to add a secondary circuit by adding a pair of Ts at the very end of the return line. I currently have rehau insulated 1in pex buried beside the boiler and running into the building I want to heat. The distance is 20 ft from the boiler to the inside of the building. Once in the building I would take water to the second floor into a Trane water to air unit. My thoughts are to then take the return from the trane to feed my infloor heated slab and from there return to boiler.
I have a 100 gal insulated tank that I can use if the consensus is to keep my boiler water separate from the building water. Perhaps I could just use the new piping from the OWF to heat a sidearm ( or flatplate exchanger) which would then heat the 100 gal tank, and then plumb from the tank in the building to both the infloor and the trane unit upstairs.
I have 2-3 spare grundfos pumps if that factors in.
My current setup as described at first has been running with no issues for 12-13 years. My return temperature to the boiler is only 15-20 degrees colder than the supply, so Im guessing 160-170 degrees. I have not measured this temperature but it feels almost as hot as the supply line beside it.This is what I propose sending to the new secondary circuit.
If you havent realized it yet, I am plumbing challenged but hopefully have explained my setup enough that more knowledgable people can steer me in the right direction.
A couple considerations.... my boiler is nearly level with my furnace plenum in the original primary circuit , only 125 ft away.
Also the slab in the building I want to add heat to is level with the ground the OWB is sitting on. The vertical rise to get water to the trane unit on the second floor is about 16 ft.
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mlappin

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2017, 11:15:46 AM »

Not familiar with Wood Doctors, for starters if you have the ability to add a second pump at the stove, it would be much better to run your second building on its own circuit instead of adding from the house circuit, if the house is calling for heat and the other building is calling for heat, the return temps could get way too low.

If what you have works then don’t worry about it, but is pretty common practice t run to the sidearm first then the furnace.
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RSI

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2017, 12:45:34 PM »

You will want to add another pump. Leave the existing loop alone. If you don't have more ports on the boiler, tee into supply and return. (before pump)
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markpallen

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 03:08:29 PM »

Ive had no issues with the side arm as it is currently hooked up so I wont likely change it. I have seen that mentioned in past posts and debated doing  it .Maybe if I ever upgrade those leaky kitek fittings I will.
There is precious little room in the back of the boiler for another pump. If I can squeeze a T in before the pump for the house, would a pump pull the 20 feet from the boiler to inside the building? Or should I make room for another pump so it can push?
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markpallen

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2017, 03:29:22 PM »

Sometimes a picture goes a long way.
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slimjim

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2017, 04:14:45 PM »

I would certainly agree, leave the existing lines as they are and add a second loop to the garage right at the boiler, perhaps a primary loop to the garage and then a secondary loop from it up to the upstairs unit in the garage?
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markpallen

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2017, 07:02:05 PM »

Okay its making sense to me. What are the thoughts on pulling the water about 20 ft rather than pushing it? Its awfully tight in back of the boiler.
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mlappin

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2017, 07:12:22 PM »

It can be done as long as the pump is lower than the hookup on the boiler, it’s a LOT easier to bleed the system with the pump at the boiler though. Originally I had my pump in the basement, it was several feet lower than the boiler, was still a pain to get all the air out and get a good prime.
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RSI

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2017, 10:25:15 PM »

If water will flow by gravity to the pump then it should be fine.
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markpallen

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2017, 06:34:14 AM »

Thanks for the input guys. I think maybe I will wait until I shut down the boiler for the summer and then see if I can squeeze another pump in the back of it.
So if I'm understanding correctly, I will TEE off the main inlet and outlet and run a totally separate circuit for the new building.
Any thoughts on whether I should use a separate water tank for heating the new area? I considered heating a 100 gal tank with a sidearm or plate exchanger , and then circulating that water in the building thru the radiant slab and a water to air unit on the second level.
The second building will only see occasional use so heating would be minimal.
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RSI

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2017, 07:12:41 AM »

If it is only intermittent use then I would swap out the 15-42 pump with larger pump like a 26-99 and put a plate hx in series with the return in the back of the boiler. Then you can run glycol in the line to the new building so the pump doesn't need to always run and pressurize it so it will feed the upper floor easier. You would need an expansion tank but shouldn't need a storage tank.
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E Yoder

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2017, 05:18:10 AM »

I agree with RSI, the tank isn't needed.

Using flat plate on the house return to separate the garage loop to put glycol in it would be fairly simple if the building has a chance of freezing during a power outage. Otherwise I'd just put two tees in the back of the boiler and pump a continuous loop to the upstairs air handler in the garage. Those tees would ideally pull full temp boiler water but catching house return water could work for intermittent heating. Upsizing the house pump would depend on return temps while house heat is running.
Then you'd have another set of close tees on the return of the garage air handler loop that would allow you to pump the garage floor pulling through a mixing valve. It's low temp so return water is still hot enough.

The only concern I would have is that if the garage is pulling off the house loop your return temp after the garage could at times be pretty low. Might cause  a condensation corrosion problem if your furnace is mild steel and the return hits one spot on the firebox. I'm not sure how the return enters your unit. I've never worried about that on the 409 units I've done.

Basically I'm agreeing with RSI and others, just rambling on about options. :)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 06:12:18 AM by E Yoder »
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markpallen

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2017, 06:56:30 AM »

Good gawd I may actually be starting to get this figured out. So the plate exchanger will isolate the water in the boiler from the glycol mix to the garage. Even if I don't use glycol this is an option. In the event of a power outage I have to hook up a generator for the house heat anyway because it is only water.
Putting two tees in back of the boiler is definitely easier as I wouldn't have to mess with the pump setup. There is very little room to work back there. So two tees in back of the boiler, on my return from the house. In the garage I would add a second pump to get water to the second level, thru the air handler, then back to the boiler. In the future I can put another pair of tees before it returns to the boiler and using a mixing valve, supply the slab.
I appreciate all the input guys. I was born without anything resembling a plumbing gene.
One of these days I'll mention a second garage with a heated slab that I will be hooking up too....
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RSI

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2017, 04:02:02 PM »

There was several different things suggested. Once you decide what will work best, we can give you better suggestions.
If you can get it to work without a plate heat exchanger it will be a simpler system. If you are going to use one anyway, I would do like my last post to keep it a little more simple than if you put it in the new building. You would most likely need to use a larger pump like I mentioned to get enough GPM for the added load.
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E Yoder

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Re: ready for some help with expansion
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2017, 08:42:44 PM »

I really doubt you'll need a flat plate/pressurized system to push air down only16'. We do attic air handlers quite often and they're more than 20'. Just plumb a way to use your well pump to blow it out the first time. Believe me a garden hose connection can save hours of purging.
And if you tee off the return from the house put a ball valve between the tees to use the house pump to help push the first time. Then leave the valve open.
Keep the pumps low and push rather than pull water.
Are we giving too many options yet ? Chuckle.
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