Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Username: Password:

Author Topic: communicating systems  (Read 142 times)

E Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
communicating systems
« on: August 09, 2017, 06:47:18 AM »

Wonder if anyone has ideas about how to tie a OWB into a communicating stat/air handler. We had one a while back that we had to purchase a $200+ circuit board from Carrier to convert to conventional 24v signals to be able to shut off the compressor. Wish there was an easier way.
Thanks.
Logged
Install Heatmaster furnaces, dealer support in VA.
High in the Blue Ridge mountains.

NaturallyAspirated

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 383
  • OWF Brand: Central Boiler
  • OWF Model: M250
  • Golfing, snowmobiling fool!
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nealmastel.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 08:38:50 PM »

Wonder if anyone has ideas about how to tie a OWB into a communicating stat/air handler. We had one a while back that we had to purchase a $200+ circuit board from Carrier to convert to conventional 24v signals to be able to shut off the compressor. Wish there was an easier way.
Thanks.
What exactly do you want the OWB to do?  Prevent water over-temp irrespective of house thermostat state?
Logged
Miss Farad was pretty and sensual, and charged to a reckless potential; but a rascal named Ohm conducted her home - Her decline was, alas, exponential
Send me your bitcoins!  1GEsGKzP5xK9e45YDjmRzGYpnhwT3oNbvj

E Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 03:48:42 AM »

We were trying to break the signal to the outside unit (compressor, 2-stage) and reroute it to a circulator. Basically adding another heat source. The problem is all the signals were digital.
Logged
Install Heatmaster furnaces, dealer support in VA.
High in the Blue Ridge mountains.

NaturallyAspirated

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 383
  • OWF Brand: Central Boiler
  • OWF Model: M250
  • Golfing, snowmobiling fool!
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nealmastel.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 05:29:01 PM »

We were trying to break the signal to the outside unit (compressor, 2-stage) and reroute it to a circulator. Basically adding another heat source. The problem is all the signals were digital.

And dual or triple heat stage thermostats can't give you what you need? 

Or do you want the OWB stage to only be available if the water is up to temp?
Logged
Miss Farad was pretty and sensual, and charged to a reckless potential; but a rascal named Ohm conducted her home - Her decline was, alas, exponential
Send me your bitcoins!  1GEsGKzP5xK9e45YDjmRzGYpnhwT3oNbvj

E Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 06:10:32 PM »

It would be nice if it would switch over to the compressor when the wood furnace temperature drops. But the biggest problem with communicating systems is the thermostat, air handler and compressor all communicate with each other by digital signals and you can't do anything outside of what is written into the "brains" have been pre-programmed to do without fault codes showing up.
Logged
Install Heatmaster furnaces, dealer support in VA.
High in the Blue Ridge mountains.

E Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 07:26:15 PM »

What I mean is, an IQ Drive system has an IQ drive stat, air handler, outside unit, all talking between circuit boards usually with variable fans, multi stage compressors, etc. A normal two or three stage stat can't be tied in. No 24v. outputs anywhere, and breaking the actual 220v. power going into the compressor would show up I think as a malfunction.
I think any new function would have to be written into the code. But I'm not a computer person and I doubt Trane or Carrier would tolerate anyone but them changing any of that.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Logged
Install Heatmaster furnaces, dealer support in VA.
High in the Blue Ridge mountains.

mlappin

  • Fabricator Extraordinaire
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 3238
  • OWF Brand: homebuilt, now HeatmasterSS
  • OWF Model: Martin Steel Works Gen 1 then, now a G200.
  • North Liberty, Indiana
    • View Profile
    • Altheatsolutions
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 07:41:40 PM »

What I mean is, an IQ Drive system has an IQ drive stat, air handler, outside unit, all talking between circuit boards usually with variable fans, multi stage compressors, etc. A normal two or three stage stat can't be tied in. No 24v. outputs anywhere, and breaking the actual 220v. power going into the compressor would show up I think as a malfunction.
I think any new function would have to be written into the code. But I'm not a computer person and I doubt Trane or Carrier would tolerate anyone but them changing any of that.
Maybe I'm missing something.

Iím betting your correct on that.
Logged
Stihl 023
Stihl 362
Stihl 460
Sachs Dolmar 112 and 120
Homemade skid steer mounted splitter, 30" throat, 5" cylinder
Wood-Eze model 8100 firewood processor

HeatmasterSS dealer for Northern Indiana

Smokeless

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 98
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster ss.
  • OWF Model: G-100, 200,400
    • View Profile
    • PCWoodBoilerSystems
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 10:32:41 PM »

Forget about the 101010101.
Just wire in a relay to power the circulator. Relay is activated by compressor voltage when it's running. Relays use minimal amps.
May need to wire in a drop out relay so it does not back feed ??not sure without schematics
Logged
Signature:
JD 401-c /Honda300atv/CAT 922-B/twofarmallCubs/2135 diesel Massey/8 chain saws/JMSloader/
HeatMaster dealer for North east area NY VT NH MASS. Sales, installations, troubleshooting of hydronic systems and gasification issues.  Saratoga co, NY

E Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2017, 03:00:04 AM »

Yes, we had discussed that, and I think there are sensors that it can tell if the compressor is running. Have you tried one? It might work anyway, I'm not disagreeing. So many things we've discussed we end up scrapping because it knows something is wrong.

I agree tieing into digital is not the right route but rather going beyond it into the actual 220 voltage.
 We had also discussed at dealer meeting about using the 220 strip heat to bring on the pump relay. I'd much prefer to stay in the control wiring...
Logged
Install Heatmaster furnaces, dealer support in VA.
High in the Blue Ridge mountains.

E Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 03:43:08 AM »

I was told on the IQ Drive system will flash on the t-stat if the compressor isn't running.Some can tell you when it's low in refrigerant. ....
Logged
Install Heatmaster furnaces, dealer support in VA.
High in the Blue Ridge mountains.

mlappin

  • Fabricator Extraordinaire
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 3238
  • OWF Brand: homebuilt, now HeatmasterSS
  • OWF Model: Martin Steel Works Gen 1 then, now a G200.
  • North Liberty, Indiana
    • View Profile
    • Altheatsolutions
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 06:09:58 AM »

Sounds like fun, not.

Several years ago upgraded corn dryers and I added a third party auto controller for moisture. Continuously checks moisture content and is temperature corrected. First had to build a sampling chamber, originally you placed it on the bottom of an auger tube and cut a section of flight out, thats crap. The supplied sampling chamber uses a very small auger that two pieces of cob at the same time can plug.

Mounting it and getting a sampling chamber was the easy part, out of all the possible wiring options our dryer was mot listed in the third party manual, took a bit of research on that one.

So basically you turn the dial and set the desired moisture it discharges at, then it either speeds up or slows down the metering rolls fifteen percent if the moisture isnít at the desired set point. Uses a bank of 3PDT relays, I changed those out and the sockets for 4PDT and off the fourth pole I ran wires to the control building and added LEDs that could be seen from the house. Green all is good, Yellow is running on slow mode (corn is too wet), White is on fast mode (corn is too dry) red if the dryer shuts down or if even on slow itís 2 points wetter than set.

The relays control whether the juice that goes to the SCR is running straight thru or one of the POTS that speed it up or slow it down. I used the exact same make and model that came in it originally, 5V coils even but Iím just using ones with an extra pole. One of the problems known with this system is sometimes a relay just drops out, it will still close but itís such low voltage and amperage even with closed contacts the circuit isnít complete, sometimes if your careful you can find which is acting up by very gently opening the control panel and just touching it with a finger. Eventually started replacing them with a lot more expensive ones that are meant for micro voltage, if I shop around I can get two of the micro voltage ones for what I was paying for a whole box of the OEMís. Thought about 5V solid state relays as well but those are single throws.
Logged
Stihl 023
Stihl 362
Stihl 460
Sachs Dolmar 112 and 120
Homemade skid steer mounted splitter, 30" throat, 5" cylinder
Wood-Eze model 8100 firewood processor

HeatmasterSS dealer for Northern Indiana

E Yoder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 03:12:48 PM »

Fun....
Logged
Install Heatmaster furnaces, dealer support in VA.
High in the Blue Ridge mountains.

mlappin

  • Fabricator Extraordinaire
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 3238
  • OWF Brand: homebuilt, now HeatmasterSS
  • OWF Model: Martin Steel Works Gen 1 then, now a G200.
  • North Liberty, Indiana
    • View Profile
    • Altheatsolutions
Re: communicating systems
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 03:33:12 PM »

Yep, took years but finally got all the bugs out, now it just runs and runs till it runs out of wet corn to dry.

Gonna work next on using a transponder and a VSD to control the auger speed feeding a pneumatic grain mover. Too little grin flowing int out and the air pressure drops because the corn is moving thru too fast, too fast and you get more damage, too much corn and pressure rises as the air ďpiles upĒ behind the corn, eventually if the pressure rises too much it plugs. Ideal is 6 pounds of air pressure on a 4Ē steel pipe. Shouldnít be too hard to get a VSD to change speeds on the supply auger to keep the air pressure right around 6 pounds. Challenge is going to be getting the proper delay programmed in as the corn also has to go thru a grain cleaner first, then on the longest run even then air pressure wonít increase right away, but canít be too long a delay or a wet slug of corn could cause a plug before it can be slowed down enough. Might see if I can have large buffer on speeding up but not so much on slowing down or even have it shut off momentarily if it hits 6.5 pounds.
Logged
Stihl 023
Stihl 362
Stihl 460
Sachs Dolmar 112 and 120
Homemade skid steer mounted splitter, 30" throat, 5" cylinder
Wood-Eze model 8100 firewood processor

HeatmasterSS dealer for Northern Indiana