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Author Topic: Water temp.  (Read 15735 times)

Roger2561

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2017, 01:24:28 PM »

Okay, got the hx cleaned out.  It took about a 1/2 hour of soaking in vinegar before I heard it gurgle and start to move.  I then connected my pump to it and ran it for a good 1/2 hour.  I was somewhat surprised that the vinegar came through it as clean as it did.  Anyway, after that I flushed it good with water.  I then reconnected everything and got the OWB flowing it.  Here's the thing that concerns me.  When only 2 zones were calling for heat, the Hx was able to keep water in oil burner at 160/170, BUT, if more than the 2 zones called for heat, the temp dropped in the oil burner.  When all 4 zones called for heat, the temp dropped even further to 120/130.  Once it hit that low number it never recovers, it just sits there.  It's quite obvious to me that something is undersized, my thoughts are the underground piping from the OWB.  I'm thinking of changing out the E-Classic 1400 this spring/summer for something a bit larger and at the same time, replace the 1" Thermopex with a larger diameter pipe.  My first thoughts are to go with 1/ 1/4.  I kind of hate to go that route due to the work involved but on the bright side, I'll have help this time instead of doing alone.  Roger   
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wreckit87

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2017, 01:40:17 PM »

Okay, got the hx cleaned out.  It took about a 1/2 hour of soaking in vinegar before I heard it gurgle and start to move.  I then connected my pump to it and ran it for a good 1/2 hour.  I was somewhat surprised that the vinegar came through it as clean as it did.  Anyway, after that I flushed it good with water.  I then reconnected everything and got the OWB flowing it.  Here's the thing that concerns me.  When only 2 zones were calling for heat, the Hx was able to keep water in oil burner at 160/170, BUT, if more than the 2 zones called for heat, the temp dropped in the oil burner.  When all 4 zones called for heat, the temp dropped even further to 120/130.  Once it hit that low number it never recovers, it just sits there.  It's quite obvious to me that something is undersized, my thoughts are the underground piping from the OWB.  I'm thinking of changing out the E-Classic 1400 this spring/summer for something a bit larger and at the same time, replace the 1" Thermopex with a larger diameter pipe.  My first thoughts are to go with 1/ 1/4.  I kind of hate to go that route due to the work involved but on the bright side, I'll have help this time instead of doing alone.  Roger   

Slow down boss, what are your return temps to the E Classic after the HX with all 4 zones drawing? It may still be a HX issue more than an undersized underground issue. Did you drop the pump inside the house to 2nd gear? 220ft of 1" underground should carry more than enough water/BTU to heat a house that size with good insulation. A guy I know is heating over 9,000 sq ft with 1" underground. Return temps are low, but he's doing it. Your return temps to the OWB will tell the tale here
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E Yoder

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2017, 04:32:50 PM »

A couple thoughts-
The flat plate could have opened up a hole through the crud but half the surface area may still be coated with buildup. I've seen lime buildup do that with domestic water. Not sure what your crud is.
Like wreckit said return temps would tell if it's a flow issue or bottleneck at the flat plate.
But like you said running it direct didn't help a lot which points towards a flow issue.... I think.
My father-in-law had to little baseboard in one side of the house, rather than chasing more flow I added some Pex under the floor so it still heat with lower temp water. Ran a bigger delta t but the house is comfortable now.
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Roger2561

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2017, 03:02:20 AM »

Wreckit, Yoder - The return temp to the OWB is around 163, give or take a few degrees.  Here's the thing, years past it didn't seem to have trouble keeping up with the load.  The entire house stayed comfortable even when the wins blew and it was 20 below zero, or colder, the heating system handled it.  Something has changed; could it be the hx, could there be air in the heat zones (I thought of this one when I got out of bed this morning), etc...  When I got out of bed this morning it was -10 degrees, but with no wind.  Every zone in the house is calling for heat.  The thermostats in the kitchen area, living room and apartment are set at 70 degrees.  The temperature in the kitchen and living room are 69 degrees and not moving up.  I do not know what the temp in apartment is, my tenant isn't awake yet for me to ask.  The 4th zone is my bedroom and I keep at 65.  We've discussing flow as a potential problem.  Could it be the circ that sends the water through the zones causing the problem?  It's a Taco 008 and it's been in the system since the oil burner was installed approaching 25 years ago.  The pressure in the oil burner is at 15Lbs, it fluctuates between 12 and 15.  Roger   
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Roger2561

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2017, 04:56:25 AM »

A couple of observations;  1) I lowered the thermostat in the kitchen to 67, I don't spend time in there anyway (I can't cook) the wall hung convector no longer runs continuously.  After the temp has been satisfied it shuts off for about 5 to 10 minutes and then runs again for about the same duration.  2) The living room temp remains at 69 but the thermostat is set to 70, it's simply not satisfying the heat need. 3) The temp from the OWB ranges between 180 and 195, the return temp has been holding around 165, the temp in oil burner is fluctuates between 130 and 140, never gets above 150.  Side note; when I had by-passed the hx to clean it, I observed the return temp at 136, but the oil burner water temp went to 150 and got up as far as 170 for a period, now that I'm on the hx again, the return rebounded to 165.  I hope this info is helpful to you guys who know a heck of a lot more than I do.  Thanks so much for the help.  Roger   
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coolidge

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2017, 06:36:12 AM »

If there is crud in the plate exchange, could there be crud sticking to the walls of underground pipe reducing flow?
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mlappin

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2017, 06:45:05 AM »

If there is crud in the plate exchange, could there be crud sticking to the walls of underground pipe reducing flow?

That’d be interesting at best.

I’d think enough flow would be present in the UL to keep it from cruising up, while in the flat plate it has enough area the flow is reduced in it to get better heat transfer.
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wreckit87

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2017, 09:00:24 AM »

So your main boiler loop pump was a 26-99 right? And your load pump is this 008. I thought earlier on, you'd said there was a 3 speed pump on the load side- where and what is that? Seeing as your return temps to the outdoor boiler are still pretty decent, you appear to be getting pretty darn good flow in the main loop. It's seeming to me that there is still some crap in the HX hindering heat transfer. You'd safely be able to pull another 15 degrees off the main loop to send to the oil boiler (or 25 if you don't have that thermostatic valve in place), which would get you very close to where you need to be. Is that 165 return happening when the supply temps are at 180 or 195? That unknown 3 speed pump has me wondering whether it's even necessary, are you piped primary/secondary? I can't picture where it would be. Most setups like this use the load pump (008 in this case) to circulate through the oil burner and across the plate. Pictures would be really neat, if at all possible
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RSI

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2017, 09:00:59 AM »

Was the vinegar turning green and did you keep replacing it till it stayed clear?

If it is something that vinegar can't dissolve, it might still be partially plugged.
I would try again with the cleaner E Yoder suggested.

How big is the pump you are using? You need enough flow to force through all the plates or it will take a long time to clear out.
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Roger2561

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2017, 02:47:51 PM »

So your main boiler loop pump was a 26-99 right? And your load pump is this 008. I thought earlier on, you'd said there was a 3 speed pump on the load side- where and what is that? Seeing as your return temps to the outdoor boiler are still pretty decent, you appear to be getting pretty darn good flow in the main loop. It's seeming to me that there is still some crap in the HX hindering heat transfer. You'd safely be able to pull another 15 degrees off the main loop to send to the oil boiler (or 25 if you don't have that thermostatic valve in place), which would get you very close to where you need to be. Is that 165 return happening when the supply temps are at 180 or 195? That unknown 3 speed pump has me wondering whether it's even necessary, are you piped primary/secondary? I can't picture where it would be. Most setups like this use the load pump (008 in this case) to circulate through the oil burner and across the plate. Pictures would be really neat, if at all possible

Sorry for the confusion, I'll try to clear it up.  The Taco 008 is on the return line at end of the zones but before the drain, the Taco is only supposed to run when one or more zones call for heat, the 26-99 is between the drain and the Hx, the 26-99 runs 24/7 circulating hot-water between the oil burner and hx.  As for the 165 return number; I haven't sat and watched it, generally I just glance at it when I'm curious.  I'll be back later, I have to church function to attend.  Oh, Happy New Year!  Roger
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wreckit87

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2017, 03:10:27 PM »

So that 26-99 keeps the oil burner constantly hot, while the Taco only comes on when there is a load. Where does that Taco draw from exactly? Is the oil burner loop piped as primary/secondary so the Taco just pulls from the loop which the 26-99 moves? Between the discharge of the oil burner and the inlet of the HX perhaps. If you are only getting 150 max off the plate and into the oil burner with no load, it would appear that your plate is either still plugged up or just too small. Curious what the return manifold temp is, before it goes back to the HX, while everything is calling. If you're only able to get 120-130 off the plate while still having 165 on the discharge of the OWB side, you are not getting enough transfer and that would put the return temps dangerously low, like under 100.
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Roger2561

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2017, 05:12:35 PM »

So that 26-99 keeps the oil burner constantly hot, while the Taco only comes on when there is a load. Where does that Taco draw from exactly? Is the oil burner loop piped as primary/secondary so the Taco just pulls from the loop which the 26-99 moves? Between the discharge of the oil burner and the inlet of the HX perhaps. If you are only getting 150 max off the plate and into the oil burner with no load, it would appear that your plate is either still plugged up or just too small. Curious what the return manifold temp is, before it goes back to the HX, while everything is calling. If you're only able to get 120-130 off the plate while still having 165 on the discharge of the OWB side, you are not getting enough transfer and that would put the return temps dangerously low, like under 100.

wreckit - Should I just bite the bullet and purchase a new plate exchanger to take it completely out of the equation and if yes, what size?
Thanks - Roger
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Roger2561

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2018, 02:07:57 AM »

Happy New Year!

Quick update - I woke up at 3:00am to a chilly house.  My living room thermostat is set to 70 and 65 in there.  My kitchen is set to 68 and it 64 in there.  All 4 zones were calling for heat this morning, it's -12 this morning.  The water temp in the oil burner was around 130 and not getting any warmer so I decided to get the oil burner running (gasp) to warm it up in here.  It's taking a bit but it's warming up as I type this message.  When I get to work tomorrow I'll be calling my local plumbing supply store to see if they have a new fphx on hand.  I'm thinking of a 80 to a 100 plate, you thoughts please.  Thanks.  Roger   
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E Yoder

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2018, 07:22:31 AM »

Wreckit, I think he means the 26-99 is pumping out of a tee on the drain through the fphx and into a tee on the relief valve.
Roger- it sure sounds to me like a clogged-coated flat plate. If it worked before I'd guess going back with something similar would be fine. But I've had quite a few flat plates clog with lime water we have in some valleys around here that vinegar won't do much for but 'the works' cleans out nice.
But a new one would be a surer route.
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Roger2561

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Re: Water temp.
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2018, 07:38:34 AM »

I hope the pic of the Hx shows up for you guys.  It's the white blob of insulation hanging from the wall. 
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