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Author Topic: If one were to......  (Read 3242 times)

wreckit87

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If one were to......
« on: July 15, 2018, 09:52:34 AM »

I've got a bit of a silly plan. I would like to set my new system up with a plate exchanger in the boiler cabinet and only run the house loop on a call for heat to minimize ground loss. I've got 170ft of 32mm Logstor buried and about 80ft of 1" PEX inside with a 40 plate for DHW and a 20x20 coil in the furnace plenum. There is also a small 20 plate for my snowmelt on a parallel loop and I will be adding another loop for a couple radiant walls in the basement. Where this gets fun, is I would also like to cut in a Lochinvar LP condensing boiler in the basement for backup and keep a meter on the gas line to monitor how many BTU I'm actually using. This would also serve as redundant backup for the shop, backfeeding through the OWB. I do have an electric boiler in there also, but my electric rate is ridiculous so I would like the ability to heat everything with LP. I realize DHW will suffer, but for the $10 a month it costs me to heat it with propane I'm not real worried about it. As many of you know, I'm electronically challenged so the wiring end of this has me confused. Is there a way I could delay the furnace blower from coming on for a minute until the incoming water (glycol, actually) is hot enough to distribute heat? And then also set it up so after the pump runs for a minute and water doesn't get hot (if the stove is out), that the Lochinvar kicks on and backs it up? I feel like I could use an aquastat or Ranco on the incoming line from the OWB like some of you do for your backup to keep the furnace from coming on, but I have 3 heat zones that will call from time to time- maybe run that through a zone controller? Is there a way to incorporate a timer to signal my Lochinvar to come on after 2 minutes of heat call with no heat from the OWB? I know this whole thing sounds ridiculous, but I can't leave well enough alone. What do you gents think?
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mlappin

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 12:36:57 PM »

It’s really simple actually, all you need is a On Delay timer, like one of these:  https://www.amazon.com/ICM-Controls-ICM102-minutes-Adjustable/dp/B01LYA0LJX/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1531679564&sr=8-9&keywords=on+delay

Depending how your wiring is now, you need one rated for 24VAC on your current set up thats turning just the furnace fan on. Then another that will just turn the LP boiler on.

Lets say you use the standard aqua stat setup like when you want to use the original thermostat in the house, one timer goes between the aqua stat and furnace fan and the other between the aqua stat and LP boiler.

I’ve used these before with fan coil valves. On a call for heat the fan coil valve opens, but the timer delays the fan from starting for 2 minutes to allow the HX to get hot.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 04:22:00 PM by mlappin »
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wreckit87

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 02:00:25 PM »

Seeing as I will have 3 zones, would I be able to incorporate that timer through a switching relay of sorts? The snowmelt and radiant are both 120v, only the furnace is 24v signal. Snowmelt is on a 12 hour timer switch like a fart auger in a bathroom, and radiant will be on a wireless 120v stat that just kicks the zone circ on with a call for heat. Maybe both of those things could just be wired in parallel to the boiler circ so that when either of those switches closes, it also spins the boiler circ? Makes sense in my head, but that's not saying much... I guess it wouldn't hurt my feelings if I could add some sort of switch for DHW too, even if it just circulates for an hour or two every morning when we're showering and whatnot. Then I'd have stored hot water for the rest of the day from that one call. I'd really like to minimize the ground loss; 7,000 BTU/H dumped in the ground 24 hours a day seems a bit silly to me when it could only be for maybe 6 hours instead. When running on LP that's a couple bucks a day saved.... Adds up over time, and would really blow Slim's mind with even less wood consumption from my stupid dirty conventional stove.
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shepherd boy

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 03:15:40 PM »

Should be able to do all that. The  biggest deal is the domestic hot water. On demand hot water you would have to anticipate use or go to a side arm or or secondary pump to the water heater to put it on a t-stat. 
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greasemonkoid

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 03:26:15 PM »

I think I've read that 3 times now and every time I get to the fart auger part I lose my thought train.

Sounds like you'll want a bag of DPDT relays with 120 and 24V coils, a delay on timer and cycling timer. The timers are solid state and available from US manufacturers as Mr. L mentioned, or if you would like a bit more flexibility there are the chinese variants that, to me, open many possibilities for customization such as this timer:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-IDT-E2RH-110-240V-Digital-Twin-Timer-Relay-Time-Delay-Relay-Switch-Black/161856543726?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Without seeing all that on paper I'm only getting part of it since I'm not in the industry, but couldn't you use a chinese temp controller to close the circuit for your pumps, fans, and auxillary boiler trigger? You can switch them to NC or NO with the appropriate relay and most even have a delay on timer, some have dual relays, and most have sensor offsets which the Ranco doesn't - at least mine doesn't.   ...For some reason.


I tend to overcomplicate things, but sounds like a thermocouple type temperature controller would trigger your backup system when the flue temp of your wood job gets too low.


Even the X410 unit has some pretty slick features for operating relays with its logic controlling abilities. I'm quite impressed with what it can do.

There's probably a hundered ways to do what you're trying to achieve, the tricky part as designing it simply as possible and function effectively.




Should be able to do all that. The  biggest deal is the domestic hot water. On demand hot water you would have to anticipate use or go to a side arm or or secondary pump to the water heater to put it on a t-stat.

This is how I've got mine setup, taco 006 on a thermostat. Works quite well.
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wreckit87

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2018, 03:44:31 PM »

Should be able to do all that. The  biggest deal is the domestic hot water. On demand hot water you would have to anticipate use or go to a side arm or or secondary pump to the water heater to put it on a t-stat.

Not really looking for on-demand. I take a 20-25 minute shower every morning around 4 and she takes a 10 minute one around 5, with a 2.5 GPM head. If I were to put a fart auger timer in the bathroom to just power the circ while showering perhaps, that would make it simple. My plate is on the cold inlet of a 40 gallon tank so I'd be sucking in 160+ degree water into my tank with the ~1 GPM domestic coming through the plate. Would be plenty of hot water stored to last 23 hours until the next cycle. And yes, I take longer showers than a female lol. Makes my neck feel better
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wreckit87

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 04:15:09 PM »

I think I've read that 3 times now and every time I get to the fart auger part I lose my thought train.

Sounds like you'll want a bag of DPDT relays with 120 and 24V coils, a delay on timer and cycling timer. The timers are solid state and available from US manufacturers as Mr. L mentioned, or if you would like a bit more flexibility there are the chinese variants that, to me, open many possibilities for customization such as this timer:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-IDT-E2RH-110-240V-Digital-Twin-Timer-Relay-Time-Delay-Relay-Switch-Black/161856543726?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Without seeing all that on paper I'm only getting part of it since I'm not in the industry, but couldn't you use a chinese temp controller to close the circuit for your pumps, fans, and auxillary boiler trigger? You can switch them to NC or NO with the appropriate relay and most even have a delay on timer, some have dual relays, and most have sensor offsets which the Ranco doesn't - at least mine doesn't.   ...For some reason.


I tend to overcomplicate things, but sounds like a thermocouple type temperature controller would trigger your backup system when the flue temp of your wood job gets too low.


Even the X410 unit has some pretty slick features for operating relays with its logic controlling abilities. I'm quite impressed with what it can do.

There's probably a hundered ways to do what you're trying to achieve, the tricky part as designing it simply as possible and function effectively.



I won't be running new wiring out to the stove for a thermocouple job, I'll say that much. Whatever I end up doing will have to rely on EWT. As for the controllers and whatnot, I literally have no idea what anything you said means lol. To simplify my system, I will have 2 zones (snowmelt and radiant) with zone circulators that run on a call for heat. The radiant will be from a wireless 120v thermostat, and the snowmelt will be from a fart auger timer. When either of those heat calls come, I will need the boiler circ to run at the same time. My third zone is forced air, and runs off a 24v heat only thermostat that only turns on the blower (I have the dual thermostat setup). Would I even need a relay or anything for the 120v zones? Seems I could just wire each of them in parallel to also power the boiler circ when the zone circs are powered. I may possibly do the same for the DHW now after thinking about it. Maybe do that and stick with the EWT sensor and delay timer for the forced air portion?
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mlappin

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2018, 04:24:22 PM »

Yep, dozens of ways to do it, was trying to keep it simple though as someone is electrically disadvantaged.
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wreckit87

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2018, 04:29:09 PM »

Yep, dozens of ways to do it, was trying to keep it simple though as someone is electrically disadvantaged.

Much appreciated
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shepherd boy

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Re: If one were to......
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2018, 06:14:49 PM »

I know one guy put a push button timer on his pump for domestic hot water. get ready to use hot water and push the button and wait like a minute and have at it like ten min. Need more just push it again and get ten more. You could have multiple buttons, beside the shower, laundry etc.

 The rest is really easy, just have a double throw relay, use one side to kick in the zone and other side to kick in the pump.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 06:19:52 PM by shepherd boy »
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