Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Portage & Main => Topic started by: morfem on July 23, 2017, 01:20:52 PM

Title: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: morfem on July 23, 2017, 01:20:52 PM
I have been following this forum for a few months now trying to make a decision on a OWB.

I have been talking to a few people and some are steering me away from the EGR 250 and more towards the BL 34-44 with shaker grates because of a few reasons.

1-They do not like the Gasification models because they are prone to problems and finicky.
    Is that a valid point or is it just a lack of experience?

2-They do not think it will be big enough for my application.
   If that's true how are people in colder climates than I am in using these successfully?

Any advice on those 2 points? Am I missing anything else?

I like the idea of cutting less wood but do not want to waste my money either.

Side question:
Can you burn coal in a EGR 250 or BL 34-44?
If so what kind of mixture of wood to coal?
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on July 23, 2017, 02:19:03 PM
Technically a BL34-44 is only legal for sale in Indiana for commercial purposes. Just heating your shop is fine as well as a hog building , chicken coop or business, hook it to your house and leave me out of it. Lets not forget Indiana passed it’s own law as well, so not only do you have the fed regs hanging over your head you can add Indianas as well. What is gonna actually happen to a homeowner who is purposely breaking the law? It’s anybodies guess, as a dealer for me it's a $25,000 fine. All I know is I wouldn’t want to be the homeowner they decide to make an example of.

Far as finicky, I don’t think anybody will argue the E Classics from CB were very finicky, the Edge seems a little better. At least the local dealer is honest with the people he’s talking to as they tell me they were told by him if their wood isn’t at 20% or dryer they aren’t going to be happy with it.

I believe the older Optimizers from P&M aren’t that finicky either, I’m not sure about the new model though. I’d think the new model and Polar’s would run about the same given they share a lot of the same features.

From October till January I went out in the woods and dropped ash trees till it started to get cluttered and I was running out of room without dropping on top of each other, the wife and I would then top em out using the Polaris Ranger, bring it up to the house and fill one of the half cord racks, went straight in the stove from there. Tops were measuring anywhere from 30-35% moisture, this was in a G400 which was oversized at the time, switched out to a G200 in February, by then had all the tops we were gonna burn gone by then and started burning split wood I ran thru the processor, that ran anywhere from 30-40% moisture, no issues other than cleaning the damper plate every 7-10 days. Ash isn’t the easiest to run, doesn’t make a very good coal bed, add a few pieces of hard maple, cherry or ironwood and worked even better.

Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: slimjim on July 23, 2017, 03:55:25 PM
The 34-44 can be purchased with shaker grates for coal, not sure what your load is but the EGR 250 is not a big unit, the 34-44 is a beast so I'm confused on the comparison on size? Wood moisture and species, there is the big difference, the BL will burn whatever you throw at it but not nearly as efficiently as a gasser, the gasser will fall on its face with undesirable wood, your choice!
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: morfem on July 23, 2017, 05:26:13 PM
Just to make sure I understand and in compliance.
The bl 34-44 with shaker grate option is legal for residential use in indiana?
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on July 23, 2017, 06:30:00 PM
Just to make sure I understand and in compliance.
The bl 34-44 with shaker grate option is legal for residential use in indiana?

Only if you burn coal in it, and to be a compliant coal unit in Indiana it will need to be classified as a coal unit with UL approval because of the shaker grate option, thats my understanding of it at least. The C models from HM are sold as coal units therefore comply with Indiana’s law. Your allowed to use wood to get your coal started, like some have said, if it takes most of the winter to get the coal going……

I wouldn’t be afraid of a gasifier at all, they’ve come a long ways in a short amount of time.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: morfem on July 23, 2017, 07:41:30 PM
I have 2800 Sq ft house with radiant tubes in basement floor. 6 300 ft loops
With 2 air handlers with heat exchangers in house.
Attached Garage has 3 -300 ft tubes.
Pole barn is 64 x 44 with 9-300 ft loops in concrete.
Also want to do hot water.
Will the EGR 250 be big enough?
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on July 23, 2017, 08:43:27 PM
Easiest way to be sure, what is each building taking for BTU’s now to heat? Your area is a LOT different than my area.

Would also help greatly to know the sq ft of the garage. How old is the construction? How good a windows? What type insulation in each structure? What temp do you plan on keeping the garage and pole barn? Plate exchanger or sidearm for DHW? A plate will supply endless hot water but pulls much harder than a sidearm.

Heating 2800sq ft of house the last addition was 1908, 1800 sq ft of pole barn that was built for cows and hay storage, no vapor barrier under the concrete even. I keep the shop at 65 when working, the wife likes her house at 73 during the day. We also heat roughly 120 foot of sidewalk as well. G200 works just fine, take the numbers from it and compare it to a EGR250.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: Dieselwrencher on August 04, 2017, 07:02:45 PM
Is the egr legal? It's been advertised for over a year but I've never seen that it has passed EPA testing.   After dealing for them for years and loosing sales to my own distributer I will say don't expect a warranty much more honorable than CB.     
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on August 16, 2017, 08:51:10 PM
Is the egr legal? It's been advertised for over a year but I've never seen that it has passed EPA testing.   After dealing for them for years and loosing sales to my own distributer I will say don't expect a warranty much more honorable than CB.   

Only thing I see on my list from Piney is the Optimizer 350 and the Envirochip 500, no listing of the Optimizer or the EGR. I think this is a pretty recent one. I just download it and open it in Xcel as needed.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: slimjim on August 17, 2017, 05:23:52 AM
Wow Shepard boy, for a guy that can't / won't answer to issues regarding the actual product that you sell, you sure do seem to have lots of knowledge and comments about your competition, why is that?
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: morfem on August 17, 2017, 06:41:55 AM
I was looking at the EGR 250 pretty hard and asked P&M if it had passed EPA testing and they said that it had just that the EPA website was not up to date.

They were nice enough to send me a Certificate of Conformity.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on August 17, 2017, 06:48:39 AM
Wow Shepard boy, for a guy that can't / won't answer to issues regarding the actual product that you sell, you sure do seem to have lots of knowledge and comments about your competition, why is that?

human nature
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on August 17, 2017, 06:51:27 AM
Heres is the list as of June 2017, if there is a newer one I can’t find it. I just download it instead of wasting a book mark on the EPA.


https://www.epa.gov/compliance/list-epa-certified-hydronic-heaters
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: shepherd boy on August 17, 2017, 12:13:06 PM
 That is good. Like I said my info came through a second party source so hadn't put too much stock in it, but nobody has ever been able to verify that it had passed till now. So if morfem has a certificate Conformity I will readily admit I was wrong. Glad they got it done and I will gladly retract my statement.

  Could you post a copy of the certificate? This issue has been batted around on the forum for some time and it would clear the air.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on August 17, 2017, 04:51:46 PM
The achieved numbers should be on the tag correct? What did it get?
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: slimjim on August 17, 2017, 06:48:00 PM
All you need to do is go to the link that morfem posted and all the info is there, not very impressive numbers but it has Intertechs stamp, not sure why EPA hasn't posted it, perhaps Robert will make adjustments and retest?
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on August 17, 2017, 07:21:50 PM
Sometimes I really wonder about those emission numbers. Course we have a welding shop a few towns over that has a gassifier of their own, emission numbers are pretty clean, efficiency sucks at 39%, like they spent all their money on making it pass and ran out before they could get the heat exchange area figured out.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: shepherd boy on August 17, 2017, 07:27:07 PM
 Hadn't noticed the link. you are right. It's been almost a year ago. Wonder why EPA is not posting it? Or P&M not  advertising at least that it has passed? I stand corrected!
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on August 17, 2017, 07:34:45 PM
Hadn't noticed the link. you are right. It's been almost a year ago. Wonder why EPA is not posting it? Or P&M not  advertising at least that it has passed? I stand corrected!

Thats weird
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on August 17, 2017, 07:40:32 PM
The numbers look good to me? Efficiency ratings are good. 8 hour output could be a little higher but not terrible. The only thing is that it is a little dirty at .27 but jeese that's not bad, I'm sure no one would ever know the difference unless computers were measuring the outputs.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on August 17, 2017, 09:04:30 PM
The numbers look good to me? Efficiency ratings are good. 8 hour output could be a little higher but not terrible. The only thing is that it is a little dirty at .27 but jeese that's not bad, I'm sure no one would ever know the difference unless computers were measuring the outputs.

Yah, but the companies that are sitting pretty right now have units that already pass the new regs without having to spend even more on R&D and more testing.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: slimjim on August 18, 2017, 04:49:50 AM
Yup, those companies are sitting pretty for right now but I know of at least one that has had several issues and I believe they will have more in the future,as you know I'm not satisfied that they handled those issues honestly. I'm thinking that I wouldn't bet the farm on them!
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: mlappin on August 18, 2017, 07:11:09 AM
So wonder how much more they will tighten em up after 2020? The 2020 standards are not impossible to meet as several manufacturers already have stoves that meet em. Makes me wonder if the feds just aren’t trying to ban em altogether in a backhanded way not so much for saving the environment, but because it’s impossible to tax the firewood somebody cuts on their own property so it cuts into revenue generation, also hard to get somebody thats pretty independent hooked on the government teat.

Unless you have a sales tax exempt form on hand, one of the hay auctions in the area is starting to add sales tax to firewood sales as Indiana requires it now as firewood is a “fuel”.
Title: Re: To gas or not to gas? That is the question.....
Post by: aarmga on August 24, 2017, 12:23:30 AM
Just to make sure I understand and in compliance.
The bl 34-44 with shaker grate option is legal for residential use in indiana?

Only if you burn coal in it, and to be a compliant coal unit in Indiana it will need to be classified as a coal unit with UL approval because of the shaker grate option, thats my understanding of it at least. The C models from HM are sold as coal units therefore comply with Indiana’s law. Your allowed to use wood to get your coal started, like some have said, if it takes most of the winter to get the coal going……

I wouldn’t be afraid of a gasifier at all, they’ve come a long ways in a short amount of time.

Taking notes ;)