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Author Topic: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete  (Read 5609 times)

greasemonkoid

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Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« on: June 04, 2018, 09:44:58 PM »

It's been a long road, not sure how things became so complex, but I owe a thanks to those of you who are always quick to respond and make the advice and info available.

Looking back things were pretty straight-cut and basic, but somewhere along the line features on top of other features were incorporated into the system driven by paranoia. At least it is possible to learn from others' mistakes, so nothing to worry about if the ash tray or firebox gets left open, I will know about it soon enough.

I've made three revisions having to shut it down each time, but this time I believe, is a winner. Having 170 degree water to wash the tractor is quite a luxury. Endless hot showers nearly free of cost are cherished.

Here is a glance at the manifold, probably ho-hum to you pro guys, but certainly a design challenge for the do-it-yourselfer. I expect someone will look at this saying - why is that like that? Well, there might be a reason... maybe...





This is my solution to temperature creep during summer use - A controller operates the pair of fans forcing air into the cabinet and through the heat exchanger when boiler temp hits X degrees, it offers a slow and steady bleed off without torching the garage all of a sudden. I see that after a hot burn and the right kind of wood the creep-up is slow, but sure to happen even when every door seal is siliconed.

There is a hole cut into the upper cabinet, open the doors for normal function.




I'll post a pic of the completed control console when I get the living room cleaned up a bit. Thus far I am pleased with everything, as it pretty much takes care of itself with redundant safeties for over and under temp conditions. It is impossible to put too much load on the system that would result in damaging return temps just as having a red hot stack is also impossible. And just for the record, every electronic component is wired with a bypass switch (except the Ranco thermostat) in case of failure.
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E Yoder

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2018, 06:36:10 AM »

You're right, the hot water can be addictive.
What is the lower pump and crossover to the upper loop doing? I'm sure I'm not seeing the whole picture. I'd enjoy seeing more details of how the system all works.
Congratulations on getting fired up. You've put in a lot of work. That's a lot of threading. :)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 06:39:07 AM by E Yoder »
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greasemonkoid

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2018, 04:13:07 PM »

The lower loop and pump primarily serve as the circulator only for the highest gpm possible in low gear, but the crossover allows either pump to feed either loop in case of failure, it also allows for the heat exchanger loop to be stone cold in case of too much demand or clogged filters without sending cold water straight into the return inlet -  i.e. after the HX loop has been off - it will be diluted with the circulation loop water, of course, total return temp is a factor of velocity/gpm of the HX loop so the sensors are located after the too loops converge and are mixed well. Should the total return temp drop too low the HX loop pump automatically shuts off. With the crossover, a trickle of flow can still enter the HX loop if necessary.

There is a large pressure gauge on the upper HX loop that is paramount for quickly determining filter condition and balancing the system - such as obtaining the desired flow across the DHW exchanger vs air to air heat exchangers. All this is in the name of avoiding dangerously low inlet temps in the event of an obsurdly high demand.

It is really difficult for me to explain. Power consumption and boiler longevity were high priority on the design constraints. I literally beat my head on the wall while designing this thing trying to run every scenario of heat demand and boiler limitations of the 100 different ways it could be designed. Much of it was utilizing what was already on hand to the best it could be.

And to know you pro guys build systems vastly more complex is quite humbling.
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greasemonkoid

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2018, 10:21:12 PM »

Should have gotten a bigger enclosure box. Too late now...



Complete and functional control console.

I know thermocouple leads should not be extended, but I did an A-B-A test and saw only 5-10 degrees difference in the readings. All of the sensor lines have shielded cable properly grounded. It is interesting, after cramming a load of dry pine the flue temps will skyrocket, the control cuts the blower off, but leaves the damper open and temps slowly drop 100 degrees where it kicks on again. After cycling about 3 times it is pretty much a constant temp burn at 400-500 degrees. The first runup hit 750, all 3 gauges read the same thing. Don't think anything was damaged, but that's pretty darn hot.

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E Yoder

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 08:52:14 AM »

I'm not surprised at your stack temps, it doesn't have multiple passes to scrub off heat. I don't think it would hurt anything, but inefficient.

I think you've thought it through much more than I usually do. I still haven't wrapped my head around it all. It's one of those things where I can understand it better being there hands on. I typically do a simple Primary loop to the flat plate from the OWB/secondary to the forced air and not much else. Let the temps swing where they will within reason.
It's a shame you have to wait til winter now to test it all out.  :thumbup:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 09:13:07 AM by E Yoder »
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greasemonkoid

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 12:51:10 PM »

Yeah, this type setup is far beyond impractical for someone doing it in the for-profit industry. I've been known to engineer things to the extreme overkill. A hobby, challenge, tinkering, paranoia, I don't know, but they laugh when they see the boiler house. It wouldn't do for me to build a house, it would be made of I-beam and steel plate.
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E Yoder

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 01:02:58 PM »

 ;D
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tinfoilhat2020

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 04:42:20 PM »

looks great, very clean.
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RSI

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 07:24:28 PM »

Do you have a 2009 or never stove?
How clean in your chimney? I have always wondered how much difference it would make on those stove with clean vs normal buildup.

Also, what is your estimated flow rate? Nature's Comfort claimed that increasing the flow rate would pull more heat off but I never tested that either.
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greasemonkoid

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 09:43:46 PM »

I bought it 7 months ago - makes it a 2017 I guess.

The chimney should still be clean as a whistle, haven't had much wood through it yet, a weeks worth.

According to the Grundfos 15-58 spec tables it should be right between 8 and 9 gpm in low gear with one pump running. The dynamic head pressure (static pressure deducted) is about .6 psi - equates to 8-9gpm according to the numbers. I never checked it with a bucket, figured a gauge would get me close enough. Yes there is bernoulli's equation at work possibly skewing the numbers, but trivial really.


At least the top side is simple and unremarkable -

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RSI

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 10:00:40 PM »

What size and length of pipe do you have? That seems like a lot of flow on low.
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greasemonkoid

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2018, 06:12:59 AM »

27 feet one way, but those are tandem 1" lines.
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E Yoder

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2018, 06:48:21 AM »

The way I'm seeing by the picture the pumps can only pull in through their own 1" line? I haven't done the math but it seems like 8-9 gpm is high but I dunno.
Obviously it makes good hot water for you. :)
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NaturallyAspirated

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2018, 07:16:16 AM »

Looks excellent!   :thumbup:
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greasemonkoid

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Re: Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2018, 10:57:24 AM »

The way I'm seeing by the picture the pumps can only pull in through their own 1" line? I haven't done the math but it seems like 8-9 gpm is high but I dunno.
Obviously it makes good hot water for you. :)


Aah yes, good catch. The original plans were different from the actual result, have to remind myself of that.

Yeah, should have done the bucket test, don't guess flow can be calculated from head pressure on a gauge then.



Edit - Wait a minute, with the crossover pipe one pump pushes through two different loops and two different return lines. Although, both pumps are fed by their own single line only. I don't even know how my own dang system works, might figure it out someday.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 12:08:46 PM by greasemonkoid »
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