Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: Roger2561 on December 28, 2017, 05:54:12 AM
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The incoming water from the OWB is nice and hot ranging from 180 to 195. When all 4 zones are calling for heat, the water temp returning to the OWB is a delta T of 20 to 25. I have baseboard emitters throughout my house with exception of the kitchen, it has a wall hung convector. My set up is, I have the water constantly circulating between the oil burner and FPHX. The water temp inside the oil burner fluctuates between 140 and 150 degrees. This causes the wall convector in the kitchen to run continuously, although it's a comfortable 70 degrees in there. The circulators at the OWB and between the oil burner and FPHX are Grundfos 22-99, each set to the number 2 position. My question is; if I turned up the speed on the circ between the oil burner and FPHX to the number 3 position, will it help or hinder with the water temp inside the oil burner? I'm trying to get the water inside my oil burner as hot as I can, which is the reason for turning up the speed on the circ. In my feeble mind, this makes sense. I will add it's a comfortable 70 degrees inside this 1840's farmhouse. The outside temp this morning is around -10 without the windchill factored in. Thanks. Roger
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I would turn up the speed on the pump coming in from the OWB. The loop from the oil boiler is short and moves probably double the water. Seems like you should be getting more than 140-150 in the oil boiler... How is it plumbed into the boiler? Should be pulling cool return water going into the flat plate, counterflowed through exiting at the hottest end of the flat plate, then dumping into the supply or top of the boiler.Unless you're plumbed with a primary loop... Lots of details.
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I would turn up the speed on the pump coming in from the OWB. The loop from the oil boiler is short and moves probably double the water. Seems like you should be getting more than 140-150 in the oil boiler... How is it plumbed into the boiler? Should be pulling cool return water going into the flat plate, counterflowed through exiting at the hottest end of the flat plate, then dumping into the supply or top of the boiler.Unless you're plumbed with a primary loop... Lots of details.
E. Yoder - I have turned up the speed on the circ inside the house between the oil burner and FPHX. It has made somewhat of a difference, the wall hung convector now turns off when it's supposed to but I'm not sure if it's due to the water moving quicker between the oil burner and FPHX or due to the thermal warming from the sun shining into the house. Oh, it does counter flow through the FPHX. The cool return water comes out of the oil burner drain, through the circ, counter flows through the heat exchanger and then re-enters the oil burner through where the T&P valve was located. I re-installed the T&P valve after installing a "T" for the return line from the heat exchanger. My guess, due to the small size of the oil burner drain (3/4 inch) and where the T&P valve was located (3/4 inch) it's restricting how many BTU's are entering my oil burner. Thanks for the response. Roger
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Yes, the 3/4" tees are a bit of pinch point. But if you have 1" coming in from the OWB the flow rate on the stove side is probably lower because of the long piping. It needs the extra "oomph" more. So I think turning up the pump on the stove would help more. My guess of course.
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Yes, the 3/4" tees are a bit of pinch point. But if you have 1" coming in from the OWB the flow rate on the stove side is probably lower because of the long piping. It needs the extra "oomph" more. So I think turning up the pump on the stove would help more. My guess of course.
Thanks for the pointers. I'll give that try when I feel brave enough to go outside again. It's darned cold out there! I post the results some time later. Roger
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:thumbup: Yup, it's not the day for tinkering around outside. But it is a good day to see results from different flow rates, adjustments. On a milder day it's harder to tell if an adjustment helped or not.
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What size FPHX do you have? And I wonder if it is getting plugged up ? I switch from a 40 to a 100 and I am max Out, I have the same set up I have a taco 14 from my Woodburner to my flat plate only 20 ft away and my oil burner temp is 165 170 and I have my Woodburner turn up to 195/185
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What size FPHX do you have? And I wonder if it is getting plugged up ? I switch from a 40 to a 100 and I am max Out, I have the same set up I have a taco 14 from my Woodburner to my flat plate only 20 ft away and my oil burner temp is 165 170 and I have my Woodburner turn up to 195/185
fireboss - I have a 50 plate FPHX. I flush it out really good every spring but it still may be plugging up. I've been mulling it over for the past year or so if I need to increase the size of it. Did the increase to a 100 make a difference for you? Roger
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We’ll I thought it did but it hasn’t been this cold since I did it, and I had my flow going the wrong way. Had my hot water was going in the bottom ,but no the bigger exchanger didn’t make a difference neither did switching the flow or the bigger pump from the wood burner
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We’ll I thought it did but it hasn’t been this cold since I did it, and I had my flow going the wrong way. Had my hot water was going in the bottom ,but no the bigger exchanger didn’t make a difference neither did switching the flow or the bigger pump from the wood burner
Having just read this, perhaps I haven't flushed the heat exchanger well enough. Thankfully I always had counter flow through the heat exchanger. One thing I did when I plumbed in my heat exchanger, I put in by-pass routes in the event I had trouble with the heat exchanger, all I need to do is close a couple of valves and open a couple of others. This would allow me to by-pass the heat exchanger and have direct flow through the oil burner. The down side to this is the entire heating system in the house would be open, not a closed, pressurized system. Just for giggles, I may do this as a test to see if it points to a problem with the heat exchanger. What do you think? Roger
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I wish I had thought about that when I put mine in . I went with the heat exchanger because I work a lot of over time and my wife will not go out and put wood in so when the house starts getting cold she goes down to the basement and switch’s to oil , It’s just a matter of closing 2 ball valves and plug the oil burner in and whenever I get home I put wood on and switch back. I don’t think I would have a problem if I went directly into the oil burner.
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I wish I had thought about that when I put mine in . I went with the heat exchanger because I work a lot of over time and my wife will not go out and put wood in so when the house starts getting cold she goes down to the basement and switch’s to oil , It’s just a matter of closing 2 ball valves and plug the oil burner in and whenever I get home I put wood on and switch back. I don’t think I would have a problem if I went directly into the oil burner.
If I have time tomorrow I'll see what happens when I by-pass the FPHX, see if it makes any difference in the temp in the oil burner. What I did this evening was fire up my pellet stove. It's a toasty 74 degrees in my living room area (700 Sq Ft). The down side to that is, it removes the heat from the den which is on the same zone as the living room plus the den is on the north side of the house, that's where the prevailing winds come from and it chilly in there without heat. Oh well, it isn't going to last forever. Roger
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Maybe you can move the thermostat to the other room so you won’t have that problem when you fire up the pellet stove
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Okay, so yesterday afternoon I got brave enough to outside in the cold and turned up the speed on the 26-99 Grundsfos from number 2 to number 3 on the OWB. The indoor 26-99 between the oil burner and FPHX is set at number 3 too. With 2 zones calling for heat this morning, the temp in the oil burner shows only 150. I do not know what it'll show if the 3rd zone calls for heat, my best guess is the temp will fall into the 130 to 150 range. Guys (or gals) will it hurt anything if I went directly into the oil burner with the water from the OWB other than introducing the water from the OWB into the house system, by by-passing the FPHX to see if the problem is with the FPHX? The outdoor temps this morning is -14 with a 10mph breeze out of the north. I'd like to get to the bottom of this knowing the temps are supposed to be approaching -20 early next week. Thanks for your input. Roger
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Maybe you can move the thermostat to the other room so you won’t have that problem when you fire up the pellet stove
fireboss, that solution is so simple that it never occurred to try it! I'll do that and see what happens. Thanks. Roger
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I don’t know how it would be switching back and forth! Maybe someone who knows will chime in . Everyone around here mostly has it directly into the oil burner. I have a taco 007 between the FPHE and the oil-burner I am sure I t is sufficient. I have a Taco 14 going from the Woodburner to the FPHE and it’s only 20 feet away , I ordered it by mistake I was going to put a taco 11 , but i figure bigger is better !
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I don’t know how it would be switching back and forth! Maybe someone who knows will chime in . Everyone around here mostly has it directly into the oil burner. I have a taco 007 between the FPHE and the oil-burner I am sure I t is sufficient. I have a Taco 14 going from the Woodburner to the FPHE and it’s only 20 feet away , I ordered it by mistake I was going to put a taco 11 , but i figure bigger is better !
I decided to try something, I by-passed the Hx and fed directly into the oil burner from the OWB. It helped but not a lot. When all 4 zones are calling for heat at the same time, the oil burner temp gauge will be at 150, not the 130 or 140 that I've been reading. However, if only 1 or 2 of the zones are calling for heat, the temp guage will then shoot up to 165 to 170. So, it's obvious to me that there is a restriction. I'm wondering if the pipe from the Hx to oil burner and back is undersized. I'm using the stuff my CB dealer gave, it's the green thermopex tubing, but without the insulation. The ID of it is only 3/4 inch, although they sell it as 1". I'm wondering if I should re-plumb it with 1" or 1 1/4" copper and see if that makes a difference. It will have to wait 'til spring when I'm not needing the heat of course. My other problem is I'm trying to come up with a way of having the water run through the oil burner but not through the restrictive 3/4" ports on the oil burner. If someone else can chime in with thoughts, please do, I appreciate it. Thanks. Roger
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When I plumbed in my oil boiler I used 1 1/4" copper , so I decided to plumb that side of my fphx the same size. I have a 70 plate hx I believe it is something like 5 1/2 x 12" with 1 1/4" ports. My old house was much larger so now it's probably overkill but it still works fine. I have a taco 007 that runs that loop all the time. I have the water flowing from the hx to the 1 1/4' return on the boiler then returning to the hx at the end of my supply piping after the circulators. I had it hooked up that way at the other house too except the circulators there were on the return side instead. There is not really any restriction that way and my temp gauges on both sides of the hx read within a few degrees of each other. Just the way I decided to do it , I'm sure other ways work as well.
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Roger, how long are your runs of baseboard? Also when you bypassed the HX, are you still running the second pump for the oil burner to feed your zones? I'm assuming you just have 4 zone valves to heat those zones, with the indoor pump serving them? I noticed you turned up the inside pump earlier in addition to the outside pump. To get more heat out of the HX, you'd need to speed up the OWB pump and slow down the inside pump. Depending on zone temps and length of baseboard runs, you may be able to drop the inside pump back to 2 or even 1 to keep the temp up across the plate. Hard to say without looking at it so maybe I'm out in left field but that's what I'm seeing. May need to upsize the supply loop as well like you said, again dependent on load. 1" PEX is just slightly bigger than 3/4" copper and unless the house is pretty small, that's not enough to serve 4 zones of baseboard
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Roger, how long are your runs of baseboard? Also when you bypassed the HX, are you still running the second pump for the oil burner to feed your zones? I'm assuming you just have 4 zone valves to heat those zones, with the indoor pump serving them? I noticed you turned up the inside pump earlier in addition to the outside pump. To get more heat out of the HX, you'd need to speed up the OWB pump and slow down the inside pump. Depending on zone temps and length of baseboard runs, you may be able to drop the inside pump back to 2 or even 1 to keep the temp up across the plate. Hard to say without looking at it so maybe I'm out in left field but that's what I'm seeing. May need to upsize the supply loop as well like you said, again dependent on load. 1" PEX is just slightly bigger than 3/4" copper and unless the house is pretty small, that's not enough to serve 4 zones of baseboard
wreckit87 - Well, I just "tried" to flush the heat exchanger and the supply side from the OWB is plugged. It's only allowing a trickle of water through it. I guess I didn't do that great of job when I flushed it in the spring. How does one unplug it? I knew there was a restriction somewhere and all I had to do was find it.
To answer your questions; yes, I did turn up both the circ between the fphx and oil burner to number 3 as well as the one on the OWB. The longest run I have is approx. 54 feet, the second longest run is 30 feet. The kitchen has a wall hung convector, I do not remember the BTU rating. I was talking to my brother lamenting about the fact I wasn't getting the results I expected and mentioned replacing the supply line from the OWB. I've been seriously thinking about replacing the E-Classic 1400 and replacing the supply with a larger diameter pipe was one of the things on my list. Any ideas how I can still tie into my oil burner but without the restrictions of the 3/4 inch port where the T&P valve sits and the oil burner drain? Roger
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Roger, how long are your runs of baseboard? Also when you bypassed the HX, are you still running the second pump for the oil burner to feed your zones? I'm assuming you just have 4 zone valves to heat those zones, with the indoor pump serving them? I noticed you turned up the inside pump earlier in addition to the outside pump. To get more heat out of the HX, you'd need to speed up the OWB pump and slow down the inside pump. Depending on zone temps and length of baseboard runs, you may be able to drop the inside pump back to 2 or even 1 to keep the temp up across the plate. Hard to say without looking at it so maybe I'm out in left field but that's what I'm seeing. May need to upsize the supply loop as well like you said, again dependent on load. 1" PEX is just slightly bigger than 3/4" copper and unless the house is pretty small, that's not enough to serve 4 zones of baseboard
wreckit87 - Well, I just "tried" to flush the heat exchanger and the supply side from the OWB is plugged. It's only allowing a trickle of water through it. I guess I didn't do that great of job when I flushed it in the spring. How does one unplug it? I knew there was a restriction somewhere and all I had to do was find it.
To answer your questions; yes, I did turn up both the circ between the fphx and oil burner to number 3 as well as the one on the OWB. The longest run I have is approx. 54 feet, the second longest run is 30 feet. The kitchen has a wall hung convector, I do not remember the BTU rating. I was talking to my brother lamenting about the fact I wasn't getting the results I expected and mentioned replacing the supply line from the OWB. I've been seriously thinking about replacing the E-Classic 1400 and replacing the supply with a larger diameter pipe was one of the things on my list. Any ideas how I can still tie into my oil burner but without the restrictions of the 3/4 inch port where the T&P valve sits and the oil burner drain? Roger
I've honestly never seen one plugged to be honest, but I'm told vinegar does a fine job or The Works toilet cleaner in small doses just circulated with a puddle pump or transfer pump. With those runs 1" PEX is going to be pretty close quarters for a supply main. As for the pumps, I know you turned them both to 3 before the bypass- to raise the temp on the load side, you would need to slow down the pump between the HX and oil burner to keep the water in the HX longer, while speeding up the OWB pump to keep it hot. If you still have both of them running on 3 you're more than maxing out the 1" underground capacity. What is the length of your underground run? I'm not grasping why there is restriction from the T&P valve- what's that all about? 3/4" black iron has almost the same ID as your 1" PEX so that little bit of restriction shouldn't be causing any trouble. The total distance of your OWB loop and approximate square footage of the house would be beneficial in deciding whether or not larger underground would help anything
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wreckit - Tomorrow I'm taking the hx off the wall and see what happened. I'm hoping that it isn't anything too serious. The square footage I'm heating a 30'x40' full basement, 1st floor living quarters of the same dimensions, an apartment approx. 1000' sq ft, my kitchen approx. 450 sq ft. Everything is kept at 70 degrees F with exception of the basement, it's at 60. I'll lower the speed of the pump between the hx and oil burner to the #2 position. Thanks for the tip. The hx is located approx. 110 feet from the OWB, that makes it an approx. 220 foot round trip, give or take a foot or 2. This house is an 1840's farmhouse that's been renovated. The insulation is maybe 85% effective, can't plug every leak. Thanks for the help. I appreciate it. Roger
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I would setup a pump going backwards from normal flow to pump cleaner through the heat exchanger. If you try just letting it soak it will probably never get completely clean. Vinegar might be all you need but if you are in a hurry, something stronger may be worth using instead.
If it regularly gets clogged up, I would think about getting a spare that you can swap out when needed.
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I would setup a pump going backwards from normal flow to pump cleaner through the heat exchanger. If you try just letting it soak it will probably never get completely clean. Vinegar might be all you need but if you are in a hurry, something stronger may be worth using instead.
If it regularly gets clogged up, I would think about getting a spare that you can swap out when needed.
This is the first time I've ever had it plug up on me. Oh course it had to happen during this cold snap. Thankfully I had the foresight to install the by-pass so I can continue using the OWB to heat the house.
When I flush the hx I always back flush it. When I tried to back flush, the water will not flow at all. I know there's nothing wrong with the pump I'm using, it pumps water (I'm using vinegar for the back flush) through the house side without any problems but when I try to flush the OWB side, nothing. And, yes, I did open the valves. When I get it removed I'll have a better view and I'll see what I can do. I'll keep everyone posted on progress or the lack thereof. Roger
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Maybe put it in a 5 gallon pail and fill it up with vinegar and let it soak for awhile and then flush it
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"The works" will blast out crud like nothing I've ever seen. But I'm wondering where the crud is coming from. ?
Does sounds like you don't have enough flow coming in to satisfy all the zones. Larger piping would be one fix or more emitters so you can heat with lower temp water.
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Maybe put it in a 5 gallon pail and fill it up with vinegar and let it soak for awhile and then flush it
That's not a bad idea. First things first, get it disconnected and removed from the wall. Thanks for the idea. Roger
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"The works" will blast out crud like nothing I've ever seen. But I'm wondering where the crud is coming from. ?
Does sounds like you don't have enough flow coming in to satisfy all the zones. Larger piping would be one fix or more emitters so you can heat with lower temp water.
The crud concerns me too. I have clue where it's come from. When you say larger piping, do you from the OWB? Thanks. Roger
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Yes, from the owb. The long run is more restriction than the short loop into the boiler from the flat plate.
Sometimes adding a few emitters is cheaper than digging up pipe I've seen guys on hearth.com making custom tall covers for their copper baseboard. Convects much more air and heats with lower temp water. Just an idea.
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I have also heard that radiator flush works good for flushing out the hx
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Okay, got the hx cleaned out. It took about a 1/2 hour of soaking in vinegar before I heard it gurgle and start to move. I then connected my pump to it and ran it for a good 1/2 hour. I was somewhat surprised that the vinegar came through it as clean as it did. Anyway, after that I flushed it good with water. I then reconnected everything and got the OWB flowing it. Here's the thing that concerns me. When only 2 zones were calling for heat, the Hx was able to keep water in oil burner at 160/170, BUT, if more than the 2 zones called for heat, the temp dropped in the oil burner. When all 4 zones called for heat, the temp dropped even further to 120/130. Once it hit that low number it never recovers, it just sits there. It's quite obvious to me that something is undersized, my thoughts are the underground piping from the OWB. I'm thinking of changing out the E-Classic 1400 this spring/summer for something a bit larger and at the same time, replace the 1" Thermopex with a larger diameter pipe. My first thoughts are to go with 1/ 1/4. I kind of hate to go that route due to the work involved but on the bright side, I'll have help this time instead of doing alone. Roger
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Okay, got the hx cleaned out. It took about a 1/2 hour of soaking in vinegar before I heard it gurgle and start to move. I then connected my pump to it and ran it for a good 1/2 hour. I was somewhat surprised that the vinegar came through it as clean as it did. Anyway, after that I flushed it good with water. I then reconnected everything and got the OWB flowing it. Here's the thing that concerns me. When only 2 zones were calling for heat, the Hx was able to keep water in oil burner at 160/170, BUT, if more than the 2 zones called for heat, the temp dropped in the oil burner. When all 4 zones called for heat, the temp dropped even further to 120/130. Once it hit that low number it never recovers, it just sits there. It's quite obvious to me that something is undersized, my thoughts are the underground piping from the OWB. I'm thinking of changing out the E-Classic 1400 this spring/summer for something a bit larger and at the same time, replace the 1" Thermopex with a larger diameter pipe. My first thoughts are to go with 1/ 1/4. I kind of hate to go that route due to the work involved but on the bright side, I'll have help this time instead of doing alone. Roger
Slow down boss, what are your return temps to the E Classic after the HX with all 4 zones drawing? It may still be a HX issue more than an undersized underground issue. Did you drop the pump inside the house to 2nd gear? 220ft of 1" underground should carry more than enough water/BTU to heat a house that size with good insulation. A guy I know is heating over 9,000 sq ft with 1" underground. Return temps are low, but he's doing it. Your return temps to the OWB will tell the tale here
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A couple thoughts-
The flat plate could have opened up a hole through the crud but half the surface area may still be coated with buildup. I've seen lime buildup do that with domestic water. Not sure what your crud is.
Like wreckit said return temps would tell if it's a flow issue or bottleneck at the flat plate.
But like you said running it direct didn't help a lot which points towards a flow issue.... I think.
My father-in-law had to little baseboard in one side of the house, rather than chasing more flow I added some Pex under the floor so it still heat with lower temp water. Ran a bigger delta t but the house is comfortable now.
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Wreckit, Yoder - The return temp to the OWB is around 163, give or take a few degrees. Here's the thing, years past it didn't seem to have trouble keeping up with the load. The entire house stayed comfortable even when the wins blew and it was 20 below zero, or colder, the heating system handled it. Something has changed; could it be the hx, could there be air in the heat zones (I thought of this one when I got out of bed this morning), etc... When I got out of bed this morning it was -10 degrees, but with no wind. Every zone in the house is calling for heat. The thermostats in the kitchen area, living room and apartment are set at 70 degrees. The temperature in the kitchen and living room are 69 degrees and not moving up. I do not know what the temp in apartment is, my tenant isn't awake yet for me to ask. The 4th zone is my bedroom and I keep at 65. We've discussing flow as a potential problem. Could it be the circ that sends the water through the zones causing the problem? It's a Taco 008 and it's been in the system since the oil burner was installed approaching 25 years ago. The pressure in the oil burner is at 15Lbs, it fluctuates between 12 and 15. Roger
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A couple of observations; 1) I lowered the thermostat in the kitchen to 67, I don't spend time in there anyway (I can't cook) the wall hung convector no longer runs continuously. After the temp has been satisfied it shuts off for about 5 to 10 minutes and then runs again for about the same duration. 2) The living room temp remains at 69 but the thermostat is set to 70, it's simply not satisfying the heat need. 3) The temp from the OWB ranges between 180 and 195, the return temp has been holding around 165, the temp in oil burner is fluctuates between 130 and 140, never gets above 150. Side note; when I had by-passed the hx to clean it, I observed the return temp at 136, but the oil burner water temp went to 150 and got up as far as 170 for a period, now that I'm on the hx again, the return rebounded to 165. I hope this info is helpful to you guys who know a heck of a lot more than I do. Thanks so much for the help. Roger
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If there is crud in the plate exchange, could there be crud sticking to the walls of underground pipe reducing flow?
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If there is crud in the plate exchange, could there be crud sticking to the walls of underground pipe reducing flow?
That’d be interesting at best.
I’d think enough flow would be present in the UL to keep it from cruising up, while in the flat plate it has enough area the flow is reduced in it to get better heat transfer.
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So your main boiler loop pump was a 26-99 right? And your load pump is this 008. I thought earlier on, you'd said there was a 3 speed pump on the load side- where and what is that? Seeing as your return temps to the outdoor boiler are still pretty decent, you appear to be getting pretty darn good flow in the main loop. It's seeming to me that there is still some crap in the HX hindering heat transfer. You'd safely be able to pull another 15 degrees off the main loop to send to the oil boiler (or 25 if you don't have that thermostatic valve in place), which would get you very close to where you need to be. Is that 165 return happening when the supply temps are at 180 or 195? That unknown 3 speed pump has me wondering whether it's even necessary, are you piped primary/secondary? I can't picture where it would be. Most setups like this use the load pump (008 in this case) to circulate through the oil burner and across the plate. Pictures would be really neat, if at all possible
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Was the vinegar turning green and did you keep replacing it till it stayed clear?
If it is something that vinegar can't dissolve, it might still be partially plugged.
I would try again with the cleaner E Yoder suggested.
How big is the pump you are using? You need enough flow to force through all the plates or it will take a long time to clear out.
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So your main boiler loop pump was a 26-99 right? And your load pump is this 008. I thought earlier on, you'd said there was a 3 speed pump on the load side- where and what is that? Seeing as your return temps to the outdoor boiler are still pretty decent, you appear to be getting pretty darn good flow in the main loop. It's seeming to me that there is still some crap in the HX hindering heat transfer. You'd safely be able to pull another 15 degrees off the main loop to send to the oil boiler (or 25 if you don't have that thermostatic valve in place), which would get you very close to where you need to be. Is that 165 return happening when the supply temps are at 180 or 195? That unknown 3 speed pump has me wondering whether it's even necessary, are you piped primary/secondary? I can't picture where it would be. Most setups like this use the load pump (008 in this case) to circulate through the oil burner and across the plate. Pictures would be really neat, if at all possible
Sorry for the confusion, I'll try to clear it up. The Taco 008 is on the return line at end of the zones but before the drain, the Taco is only supposed to run when one or more zones call for heat, the 26-99 is between the drain and the Hx, the 26-99 runs 24/7 circulating hot-water between the oil burner and hx. As for the 165 return number; I haven't sat and watched it, generally I just glance at it when I'm curious. I'll be back later, I have to church function to attend. Oh, Happy New Year! Roger
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So that 26-99 keeps the oil burner constantly hot, while the Taco only comes on when there is a load. Where does that Taco draw from exactly? Is the oil burner loop piped as primary/secondary so the Taco just pulls from the loop which the 26-99 moves? Between the discharge of the oil burner and the inlet of the HX perhaps. If you are only getting 150 max off the plate and into the oil burner with no load, it would appear that your plate is either still plugged up or just too small. Curious what the return manifold temp is, before it goes back to the HX, while everything is calling. If you're only able to get 120-130 off the plate while still having 165 on the discharge of the OWB side, you are not getting enough transfer and that would put the return temps dangerously low, like under 100.
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So that 26-99 keeps the oil burner constantly hot, while the Taco only comes on when there is a load. Where does that Taco draw from exactly? Is the oil burner loop piped as primary/secondary so the Taco just pulls from the loop which the 26-99 moves? Between the discharge of the oil burner and the inlet of the HX perhaps. If you are only getting 150 max off the plate and into the oil burner with no load, it would appear that your plate is either still plugged up or just too small. Curious what the return manifold temp is, before it goes back to the HX, while everything is calling. If you're only able to get 120-130 off the plate while still having 165 on the discharge of the OWB side, you are not getting enough transfer and that would put the return temps dangerously low, like under 100.
wreckit - Should I just bite the bullet and purchase a new plate exchanger to take it completely out of the equation and if yes, what size?
Thanks - Roger
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Happy New Year!
Quick update - I woke up at 3:00am to a chilly house. My living room thermostat is set to 70 and 65 in there. My kitchen is set to 68 and it 64 in there. All 4 zones were calling for heat this morning, it's -12 this morning. The water temp in the oil burner was around 130 and not getting any warmer so I decided to get the oil burner running (gasp) to warm it up in here. It's taking a bit but it's warming up as I type this message. When I get to work tomorrow I'll be calling my local plumbing supply store to see if they have a new fphx on hand. I'm thinking of a 80 to a 100 plate, you thoughts please. Thanks. Roger
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Wreckit, I think he means the 26-99 is pumping out of a tee on the drain through the fphx and into a tee on the relief valve.
Roger- it sure sounds to me like a clogged-coated flat plate. If it worked before I'd guess going back with something similar would be fine. But I've had quite a few flat plates clog with lime water we have in some valleys around here that vinegar won't do much for but 'the works' cleans out nice.
But a new one would be a surer route.
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I hope the pic of the Hx shows up for you guys. It's the white blob of insulation hanging from the wall.
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What dimensions and how many plates?
And you said somewhere you thought you knew where the crud was coming from? You don't want to plug a new one.
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I'm still having trouble visualizing how the oil burner and heat loads are piped... I'd sure like to see that before I go ahead and recommend you buy a new HX. My feeble mind can't process things without seeing them sometimes, haha. If you do decide to replace it though, you're most likely going to get bent over a log at the local plumbing store if they're anything like they are here. Check with Badger Insulated Pipe before you buy, or at least surf eBay. I would sure think a 60 plate would be great plenty for your application but "too big" is impossible. What is it that you have now? I feel like this was discussed but can't find it
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Wreckit, I think he means the 26-99 is pumping out of a tee on the drain through the fphx and into a tee on the relief valve.
Roger- it sure sounds to me like a clogged-coated flat plate. If it worked before I'd guess going back with something similar would be fine. But I've had quite a few flat plates clog with lime water we have in some valleys around here that vinegar won't do much for but 'the works' cleans out nice.
But a new one would be a surer route.
Yoder, thanks for the reply and Happy New Year! Would it be craz to try a larger flat plate, lets say a 70 or 80 plate? One thing I need to admit to is, this is first really cold, subzero temps lasting more than a day or two that I've tried heating my house with the OWB. The past few years have been rather mild (not complaining) so I'm unsure if the 50 Plate is indeed large enough for the load on this old house. Roger
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Yeah, Badger is great. Buying local will hurt.
A bigger plate won't hurt at all. Extra plates usually don't add to the cost that much.
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The plate I have now is a 50 plate 12x5, made by Brazetek. I'll see what Badger has to offer.
Thanks to the both of you for all of your expert help.
Roger
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I am having the same problem and I went from a 40 to a 100 Fphx and it didn’t make a difference, i am convinced that i need a faster pump going to the oil burner and the EX. I have a taco 007 running 27/7 . I have a taco 14 running from wood burner to HX i am only loosing 1 or two degrees its a very short run . And that hot water is flying it’s 195 degrees.my water in my oil burner is only 170 max with these cold temperatures and then i have another 007 that pushes it up when there is a call for heat up stairs ( 3 zones) i am convinced that the 007 running across the EX is not going fast enough for it to keep up with the cool water coming back down from the baseboards . What do you guys think ?
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I am having the same problem and I went from a 40 to a 100 Fphx and it didn’t make a difference, i am convinced that i need a faster pump going to the oil burner and the EX. I have a taco 007 running 27/7 . I have a taco 14 running from wood burner to HX i am only loosing 1 or two degrees its a very short run . And that hot water is flying it’s 195 degrees.my water in my oil burner is only 170 max with these cold temperatures and then i have another 007 that pushes it up when there is a call for heat up stairs ( 3 zones) i am convinced that the 007 running across the EX is not going fast enough for it to keep up with the cool water coming back down from the baseboards . What do you guys think ?
Your oil burner water temps are not high enough at 170? What are your return temps to the OWB after the HX? Are you counterflowed across the plate? Putting a faster pump in between the oil burner and plate is only going to reduce temp further, as the water can't stay in the plate long enough to heat up. Less flow equals more heat on the load side. If anything a faster load pump would be helpful to keep return temps from the baseboard higher
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My return temperature back to wood burner after the exchanger is 190 192 or 3 , i am hardly loosing anything. I tried closing the ball valves to slow the flow down from the oil burner to the exchanger and that didn’t do anything . When I switch to oil the oil burner can keep up. It runs a lot but the temperature is like 180 185
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And yes I have them counter flowing. I did shut that pump of for awhile and when it drop 5 degrees i turn it back on ant it came up 5 and it stays there . Last year i swap out the 40 EX to the 100 I didn’t gain anything so i had a 007 from the wood burner to the exchanger i was loosing probably 10 degrees, and when i put the 14 in ( I ordered the wrong pump I meant to get a 11) I tried it and it didn’t loose anything so I kept it so that’s why i am convinced that if I put a faster one on the other side it will go through the exchanger faster it will make the water in the oil burner hotter and then it would be warmer in the house
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Hmmm.... Well only losing 2-5 degrees on the boiler loop is all but unheard of. I don't think you're getting any flow at all through that oil burner/HX loop unless the load pump is turning. If throttling the ball valve there did nothing, there is nothing to change- meaning you have no flow. Have you opened up that pump ever? Going through the exchanger faster is not going to raise temp any higher than it is. Faster flow means less time spent in the exchanger, thus less heat gained from the exchanger. Do the temps between the plate and oil burner change between no load and full load? Nothing about this makes sense
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I know for sure my gauge is working Because my Woodburner is set for 185 and 195 and when the wood burner opens the damper at 184 the return gauge it’ pretty darn close so it’s with in a Degree or to, and when t throttled bak the valves i can here it slow down. Maybe i am not giving it enough time to raise the temperature? But when I turned it off ( unplugged I have it plugged in a out let to run 24/7) it didn’t take long to bring it up the 5 degrees i let it drop, when the temperature outside is not as cold as it is now say 20 degrees everything is fine everything gets satisfied. I only have a problem when we get these cold snaps. And I know It is unheard of but that Taco 14 is way over kill my Woodburner is only 14 feet away from the house and Maybe the HX is another 10 feet away in the basement so maybe 40’ round trip, and that water is flying i can here it flowing and i go long times between cycles
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I would think that more flow from the indoor boiler through the flat plate while heating it less on the first pass would make the loop the second time before it goes out to the zones. It's a really short loop, much shorter than the zones. So more flow would be better with more temp gain. Thoughts?
You might have an emitter issue though. They're probably sized for 180+,℉, adding a few would make a huge difference, otherwise slinging more water doesn't help much. Cleaning lint off could help a bit too.
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I guess I hadn't thought of it passing through the plate twice, my bad. Good call. I had assumed there was quite a bit of water in the oil burner that would take a minute or two to displace. Do you have any idea what the return temps are from the baseboard, before it hits the plate or oil burner or however you have it piped? I'm not familiar with this method of piping between the drain and relief like you had mentioned earlier Eldon, must be like a P/S setup to keep the oil burner hot all the time via the plate? And then the load pump drawing from that loop? Seems odd that even without a load the oil burner can't get higher than 170 even though the pump runs constantly and plate is 195 degrees
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I am sorry for the misunderstanding when no load it WILL reach 185 or better, in the shoulder months i have it set up where the oil burner to HE pump gets plugged in to the aquastat,so when it’s reaches temperature it shuts off . Like I said when it’s just cold everything is fine, but when it’s wicked cold it can’t keep up. So right now its 6 degrees but i am on oil and wood I have the oil burner itself on a plug that i plug it in to the aquastat
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No return temps from the house? I'm just wondering if the load is simply too great and it can't recover. Seems odd that there was no difference from the 40 plate to 100 though, something is goofy
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I really think more flow from your oil boiler to the flat plate could help. but some more baseboard or some other kind of emitter will allow it to heat no problem with 170 degree water. When the emitters are barely sized big enough everything is a struggle.
Wreckit- the boiler is almost serving as a small buffer tank with an oil gun. It doesn't all get through the fphx immediately, but it's flowing down through the boiler and out the drain. Out the drain, through the fphx, back in the relief valve. Or at least that's how I've done it. That's what I think we're discussing.
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No I don’t have a clue what the return temperature is I don’t have a gauge there , I think it will be better to put a bigger pump there , its the only thing left lol! The next question is what size 9 or 11 I want to put the 11 think the faster the better . And i am sorry Rodger for hi jacking yor post
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Oh and when iam on oil the house is nice and warm !
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A 009 is a pretty low flow high head pump, kind of an odd one. so I'd do a high flow 0011 or at minimum a B&G NRF-25 .
And I'm not saying I'm correct for sure, but it's just my best guess as I think it through.
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Yes i am gonna go with the 11 I think it should do the trick. I will keep you guys posted Thanks for the Help
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fireboss - that okay that you hijacked this thread, I have been learning quite a bit from the discussion between you, Yoder and wreckit. That's why love this forum, endless information. Roger
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I have a update! I put the NFR 25 in it mad a big difference I got up this morning and went down to find all 3 zones was running and the water temperature in the oil burner was almost 180 . It’s 3 degrees here and with-a - 15 wind chill ,so it’s 90 % better. After this cold snap i am going to switch my pumps from my wood burner to the house witch is aTaco 14 and put that in between the HX and the oil burner and put the Nfr 25 on the wood burner to the Hx ! What do you guys think 🤔
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I have a update! I put the NFR 25 in it mad a big difference I got up this morning and went down to find all 3 zones was running and the water temperature in the oil burner was almost 180 . It’s 3 degrees here and with-a - 15 wind chill ,so it’s 90 % better. After this cold snap i am going to switch my pumps from my wood burner to the house witch is aTaco 14 and put that in between the HX and the oil burner and put the Nfr 25 on the wood burner to the Hx ! What do you guys think 🤔
fireboss - At the risk of sounding ignorant, is the NFR25 a pump? If you're getting great results with the new set up, why change it? I would leave it alone, but that's my $0.02.
The new 100 plate FPHX came in yesterday. In a few minutes I'll be making a custom insulated box for it before installing it. I hoping the more surface area that the water contacts, the more percentage of it will go into heating my home. The temps this morning in my area of NH is -9 with a stiff northerly breeze making wind chills around -25. As soon as I get it connected and everything flowing, I'll post results whether they are positive or negative. Roger
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The NFR25 is B&G 3 speed pump, and I think that to get the most out of the 100 plate HX I needed more than the 25 is putting out . I think if i had the 14 in it will take me up to 185 degrees is where I need to be with my baseboard . I have seen it posted on here a million times that we need to have temperature gauges on everything, they tell the story, I takes the guesswork out and save a lot of money, so over the summer I will install temperature gauges on everything
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The NFR25 is B&G 3 speed pump, and I think that to get the most out of the 100 plate HX I needed more than the 25 is putting out . I think if i had the 14 in it will take me up to 185 degrees is where I need to be with my baseboard . I have seen it posted on here a million times that we need to have temperature gauges on everything, they tell the story, I takes the guesswork out and save a lot of money, so over the summer I will install temperature gauges on everything
Okay I see what you're saying. I have a Grundfos 26-99 at the OWB and between the Hx and oil boiler. They are 3 speed pumps. The one at the OWB is set to the number 3 and the one between the Hx and oil boiler is set to number 1. Because my 50 plate was unable to keep up with demand during this cold snap, I have been heating with my oil boiler for the past week or so. I'm amazed what insulation will do for a place. Before I started renovations and insulation upgrade, we would go through a tank of heating oil once a month and we had to keep the temp at 68 degrees, but I checked the tank this morning and to my amazement, we used less than 1/8 of tank of fuel and we're keeping the place 70 degrees 24/7. But, I prefer burning wood. I can get it log length at just a bit over $100.00 per cord. I go through about 6 to 6 1/2 cord per year. Not too bad for a big house. Roger
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I have a update! I put the NFR 25 in it mad a big difference I got up this morning and went down to find all 3 zones was running and the water temperature in the oil burner was almost 180 . It’s 3 degrees here and with-a - 15 wind chill ,so it’s 90 % better. After this cold snap i am going to switch my pumps from my wood burner to the house witch is aTaco 14 and put that in between the HX and the oil burner and put the Nfr 25 on the wood burner to the Hx ! What do you guys think 🤔
I think you'll need the flow on the main loop in from the owb so I doubt switching will help, but it would be an interesting experiment. I think you need more emitters to drop the temp you need to operate.
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Hi all, it's 0 degrees this morning with a -15 windchill, all 4 zones calling for heat. Before I replaced the 50 plate heat exchanger with the 100 plate, the temp in the oil boiler was hovering around 130/140, this morning is no different, it's still hovering around 140. So, I'm thinking that fireboss may be on the right the track regarding changing out the Grundfos 26-99 between the oil boiler and Hx. The pump between the oil boiler and Hx is set at the number 1 position. It's a 3 speed Grundfos. Should I up the flow to the number 2 position?
Fireboss - How's that NRF25 doing for you? Is it still giving you the results you stated earlier this post? I have to plead ignorance with a lot of this pump/flow stuff, I'm not that educated when it comes to hydronics and flow vs head pressure.
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Hi all, it's 0 degrees this morning with a -15 windchill, all 4 zones calling for heat. Before I replaced the 50 plate heat exchanger with the 100 plate, the temp in the oil boiler was hovering around 130/140, this morning is no different, it's still hovering around 140. So, I'm thinking that fireboss may be on the right the track regarding changing out the Grundfos 26-99 between the oil boiler and Hx. The pump between the oil boiler and Hx is set at the number 1 position. It's a 3 speed Grundfos. Should I up the flow to the number 2 position?
Fireboss - How's that NRF25 doing for you? Is it still giving you the results you stated earlier this post? I have to plead ignorance with a lot of this pump/flow stuff, I'm not that educated when it comes to hydronics and flow vs head pressure.
I'm not sure I follow.... You want to swap the 26-99 for an NRF-25? Unless you need to slow flow down tremendously, this will be of no benefit. The same could be done with throttling of a valve if needed. The way I see it, if you speed up flow across the plate HX, the temps will drop. But as Yoder pointed out earlier, it may be able to run across the plate twice before going out to the emitters therefore heating further. Would definitely be worth a try now to turn the 26-99 up to 3 and see what happens to the temps in the oil burner. Can't hurt to try right?
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Hi all, it's 0 degrees this morning with a -15 windchill, all 4 zones calling for heat. Before I replaced the 50 plate heat exchanger with the 100 plate, the temp in the oil boiler was hovering around 130/140, this morning is no different, it's still hovering around 140. So, I'm thinking that fireboss may be on the right the track regarding changing out the Grundfos 26-99 between the oil boiler and Hx. The pump between the oil boiler and Hx is set at the number 1 position. It's a 3 speed Grundfos. Should I up the flow to the number 2 position?
Fireboss - How's that NRF25 doing for you? Is it still giving you the results you stated earlier this post? I have to plead ignorance with a lot of this pump/flow stuff, I'm not that educated when it comes to hydronics and flow vs head pressure.
I'm not sure I follow.... You want to swap the 26-99 for an NRF-25? Unless you need to slow flow down tremendously, this will be of no benefit. The same could be done with throttling of a valve if needed. The way I see it, if you speed up flow across the plate HX, the temps will drop. But as Yoder pointed out earlier, it may be able to run across the plate twice before going out to the emitters therefore heating further. Would definitely be worth a try now to turn the 26-99 up to 3 and see what happens to the temps in the oil burner. Can't hurt to try right?
wreckit - It's supposed to be below zero again this evening only no wind this time but I think it still will be a good test if I turned it up a notch or two. I'll post the results tomorrow. Roger
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A couple of pics showing my set up. I hope they come through.
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Sorry Rodger I have been very busy, Yes speed the pump up I have mine on 3 and its 90 % butter ! So yes like Yoder said it’s better to have it going across the EX several times before it goes out. I was going to put my taco 14 in ( that’s a big pump) but I didn’t have time yet . It was 63f here the other day i was going to do it then but I wound up working all night and the next day. Now it’s was 3 here this morning so I don’t want to mess with it so yes turn that pump up it will make a difference!
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Sorry Rodger I have been very busy, Yes speed the pump up I have mine on 3 and its 90 % butter ! So yes like Yoder said it’s better to have it going across the EX several times before it goes out. I was going to put my taco 14 in ( that’s a big pump) but I didn’t have time yet . It was 63f here the other day i was going to do it then but I wound up working all night and the next day. Now it’s was 3 here this morning so I don’t want to mess with it so yes turn that pump up it will make a difference!
I cranked up the Grundfos 26-99 from it's #1 setting to #3. I checked on it this morning. The temp outside is -1 without a windchill. With 2 zones calling for heat, the oil boiler gauge shows a temp of 150 which is a step in the right direction but not there yet. I wish I knew what it was if all 4 zones were calling at the same time. I have some changes I want to make but will not wait until I have the money. Roger
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Sounds like the flat plate isn't the pinch point. It's flow, probably on the incoming line from the owb. I'm assuming that pump is OK? Like a broke impeller, etc.
My thought is- The options are larger underground lines, double pumping, or more emitters in the house so you can heat with lower temp water. I usually favor the extra emitter route. A kick space heater, some Pex under the floor, custom taller baseboard covers to draw more air... Lots of options.
Had one like this last year, eventually found there was a bypass between supply and return on the oil boiler that was left open. Also the temp probe on the Owb was reading about 20 degrees low. Fixed both and problems disappeared.