Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Advanced Plumbing => Topic started by: FrozenMongrel on September 04, 2017, 09:17:15 PM

Title: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on September 04, 2017, 09:17:15 PM
So I removed my old memco oil boiler and all of the plumbing associated with it so all that I have left is the heat exchanger and the copper runs to the baseboard zones. I'm going to be setting the system up with a primary/secondary design with the outdoor boiler HX integrated into the primary loop. I have 3 heating zones currently and a 4th one planned in the future when I finish my basment.

I'll be using a plate HX for DHW fed off the primary loop with a monoflow tee. My largest zone only has 30' of baseboard. The 2nd zone is about half that and the 3rd zone is one 7' baseboard. All zones are 3/4" copper. The house was setup with zone circulators, but I was debating plumbing it with a variable speed ECM pump and zone valves. I have a bunch of Taco 007 pumps and a controller for up to 6 zones, so I may just end up going that route, but with the low flow requirements I don't want to over pump the zones and end up wasting energy by not having the flow slow enough for efficient heat transfer at the baseboards.

I have a 120k btu oil boiler that will also be plumbed into the primary loop via close tee's, but will only be for a backup system if for some reason I can't run the outdoor boiler. I'll probably set that up to have a constant 120* flow of water through it to avoid cold starting. I won't have that installed right away, just going to be running the G200 and getting the oil setup at some point in the future. I'll try and get a diagram of what I'm planning drawn up in the next few days and posted.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: E Yoder on September 05, 2017, 02:06:16 AM
Sounds like a good one for a Dp pump and zone valves (like you said).
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: Smokeless on September 05, 2017, 10:07:49 AM
I have used the taco sentry zone valves with good luck easy to wire. And have end switch.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: slimjim on September 05, 2017, 10:29:33 AM
The biggest issue with a single circ and zone valves is when you lose a circ, you lose all your heat, have a spare on hand!
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on September 05, 2017, 12:00:48 PM
The biggest issue with a single circ and zone valves is when you lose a circ, you lose all your heat, have a spare on hand!

That was my thinking. Are there any issues with plumbing it with closely spaced tees and zone valves? That way if I need to switch to zone circulators it wouldn't be a major job, just swapping out the zv for flanges and pumps.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: mlappin on September 05, 2017, 02:09:44 PM
Might wanna look into doing all primary secondary loops, pumps are usually cheaper and much more reliable than zoning valves.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: Smokeless on September 05, 2017, 03:06:47 PM
Don't forget  a. Zone valve control is different than a circulator control.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on September 05, 2017, 06:29:21 PM
Might wanna look into doing all primary secondary loops, pumps are usually cheaper and much more reliable than zoning valves.

But with the extremely low flow requirements of each of my loops is it possible to efficiently turn a pump down low enough for correct heat transfer through the baseboards?
 
Don't forget  a. Zone valve control is different than a circulator control.

Yup, that's why I may end up with zone circulators if I can get the correct flow out of them for efficient heat transfer. I already have most of the components I need for circulators, but I don't want to be wasting energy for the next 30 years that I run this system.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: Smokeless on September 05, 2017, 09:26:20 PM
Frozen. 
  Grundfos has the alpha 15-58. It is a very good pump. I have one in my system.  It has 7 settings 
 3 pressure.
 1 auto
 3 flow.
  It has a lite digital display that toggles back and forth between watts and gpm. Letting you know exactly what it is flowing and using for energy. Very easy to change settings. Just push the desired setting.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on September 06, 2017, 08:50:54 AM
Frozen. 
  Grundfos has the alpha 15-58. It is a very good pump. I have one in my system.  It has 7 settings 
 3 pressure.
 1 auto
 3 flow.
  It has a lite digital display that toggles back and forth between watts and gpm. Letting you know exactly what it is flowing and using for energy. Very easy to change settings. Just push the desired setting.

Just 1 of those has enough head and flow to pump my entire system. It would be very expensive to install one for every circuit only to have to flowing 1-2 GPM
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: Smokeless on September 06, 2017, 10:51:57 AM
That's why I only have one. Lol.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: E Yoder on September 07, 2017, 02:33:16 AM
Frozen. 
  Grundfos has the alpha 15-58. It is a very good pump. I have one in my system.  It has 7 settings 
 3 pressure.
 1 auto
 3 flow.
  It has a lite digital display that toggles back and forth between watts and gpm. Letting you know exactly what it is flowing and using for energy. Very easy to change settings. Just push the desired setting.

Just 1 of those has enough head and flow to pump my entire system. It would be very expensive to install one for every circuit only to have to flowing 1-2 GPM
Although I usually use pumps instead of zone valves, in your case a Delta p circ (Alpha, Viridian, B&G Auto, etc) might make more sense. I'd just keep a spare circulator and zone valve on hand. The electric savings would be worth it and you'd be grossly over pumped otherwise. It'll heat but be quite wasteful.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on September 10, 2017, 06:40:29 PM
I thought I had replied here, but apparently I didn't. I'm going with zone circulators as I already have them and a controller for them. I also am thinking about going to radiant floor heating someday instead of baseboards, so I'd need the pumps then anyway. The cost of the controller and zone valves is quite a bit upfront while I'm starting a business and income is low. I'll pay the little bit extra each month for electricity and can always swap it around down the road if it really is a problem. I'll slowly upgrade each of the pumps to an ECM one as they die (all of them are used but work well, so to keep initial costs low I'll just use them). If they don't die, I'll just replace them as I can afford them. I should be ready to start plumbing it all up next weekend.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on September 10, 2017, 07:00:10 PM
This is the basic plan for the layout. I did switch out the separate drain valves on each circuit for the end ball valves having integrated drains. I figured it would be easier to bleed air out of the secondary circuits with the drains at the end of the circuits.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: slimjim on September 11, 2017, 04:24:31 AM
Well done Matt, hey if you like I have a bunch of black iron and brass fittings that I have taken out when rebuilding manifolds, if you want to take the time to tear them apart at my shop with the vise, you can have them.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: slimjim on September 11, 2017, 04:26:28 AM
You still need to add an oil boiler interrupt Aqua stat and I think I would go with 1 1/4 main loop, come on up and see what I have, I'll be back Tuesday eve.
Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on September 26, 2017, 09:14:27 PM
You still need to add an oil boiler interrupt Aqua stat and I think I would go with 1 1/4 main loop, come on up and see what I have, I'll be back Tuesday eve.

Just got back on here. Haven't finished this yet, I have the primary loop already laid out in 1". With my total flow under 7 gpm will it really make a big difference to switch to 1 1/4"? I know the flow would be higher, but I'm barely needing 2gpm on my longest zone and I only have 3 zones. I figure I could always redo it if it was a major issue. It's already gong to be tons better then my old piping from the previous owner of the house. I have some pictures and a couple questions.
I know it's not ideal to have the spiro-vent after the zones as the temperature is lower, but are there any issues that I'll run into because of that? I'm pretty tight on space, and it makes the most sense where it is, right before the primary loop pump seems like a bigger deal than water that is a few degrees higher.
Also in the last picture I have a long leg of copper coming down from the spiro-vent, am I going to have problems putting the expansion tank on the bottom of it with the cold water feed in the top of the tee? I'll have the tank properly supported, but I wasn't sure if there were any fluid dynamics that I needed to consider in the placement of it.
The oil boiler loop and the dhw are set the way they are going as well as the owb hx. I did change it to a vertical arrangement from horizontal as it seems there's less chance of air getting stuck in it this way.
https://flic.kr/p/YTUJqz
https://flic.kr/p/XPfpKQ
https://flic.kr/p/BMVP6f
https://flic.kr/p/YPL1sG
https://flic.kr/p/XPfr8E



Title: Re: New plumbing
Post by: FrozenMongrel on October 19, 2017, 07:47:10 PM
Finally got most of this taken care of. The DHW isn't plumbed in yet and the oil boiler isn't setup except for the loop into the primary loop. I still need to run the oil feed line, venting, and tune the burner as well as wire that in. I've got what I need to have the OWB provide heat and I will have the DHW ready by the time I fire up for the year hopefully. I can take my time on the oil boiler, not really a need for it, just nice to have the backup option if I need to.