Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Pools & Hot Tubs => Topic started by: Timkerry on March 15, 2013, 12:10:18 PM

Title: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Timkerry on March 15, 2013, 12:10:18 PM
Hi, this is the Mrs. With summer and pool season around the corner I just wanted to ask a question..... We have a central boiler Cl 5036 hooked up to our home and pool.  It heats the house and hot water.  We had an electrician install it to the pool 18x36 in ground.  Ever since it has been installed we can only heat the pool for 5 minutes and that's it.  The water jets in it nice and warm and then quickly always turned to cold within 5 min.  We just then gave up on it...... Well, it has been this way for 6yrs and this mom wants to swim in a heated pool that she paid extra $ for the parts from Central Boiler.  Any suggestions as to what is happening here? Hubs thinks lines are getting too hot too fast (whatever that means)
I have photos attached to see if that helps anyone figure why we can't keep the warm water flowing for more then 5 min ever :(
It DOESN'T matter if the wood burner temp is 160 or 180....... Still turns to cold water into the pool in a very few min.  I keep seeing people post about a aqua stat what's that? And would that help? Just sadden that our pool is "HEATED"after spending extra on the pool accessories.  Hope this summer we do have a ACTUAL heated pool:)
Thank you !!!! Kerry

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Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 15, 2013, 12:49:50 PM
I can't believe what I'm seeing........  Is that the PVC lines going into the stove????
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 15, 2013, 12:52:27 PM
I see absolutely nothing that is required to heat a pool???  I have no idea who sold you what or took advantage of you but if you did try to heat your pool like this, it simply wouldn't work, and if it could, your stove would be destroyed in a matter on months........   In disbelief
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Timkerry on March 15, 2013, 01:07:52 PM
Oh no :( that's not good!!
We bought our boiler from an individual who was a dealer here in Ohio.  We told him we needed the pool hooked up too and to add on the costs of what materials we needed to do so.  He didn't install the boiler nor the hook up the pool part.  He advised us to call a local electrician to do so.  The electrician installed everything with the dealer coming back and ok everything.   Oh.... That makes me worried now.  I know we bought that extra part that was like $500 so what your telling me is NO PVC should be used at all.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: RSI on March 15, 2013, 04:19:00 PM
Can you get some more pictures so we can see exactly what you have? He need to see the pipes that come from the Central Boiler to the pool. There has to be a heat exchanger between the pool and boiler. Hopefully it is there. If there isn't I would recommend disconnecting it immediately and draining and flushing the boiler. If pool chemicals have been in the boiler very long it will fail very quickly.

Assuming it is hooked up correctly and has a heat exchanger (central boiler sells flat plate heat exchangers for pools which I personally think is a bad idea, should be shell in tube) you are probably just putting too much load on the boiler. We need to know how low the temperature on the boiler drops when the problem happens.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 15, 2013, 06:02:34 PM
Oh no :( that's not good!!
We bought our boiler from an individual who was a dealer here in Ohio.  We told him we needed the pool hooked up too and to add on the costs of what materials we needed to do so.  He didn't install the boiler nor the hook up the pool part.  He advised us to call a local electrician to do so.  The electrician installed everything with the dealer coming back and ok everything.   Oh.... That makes me worried now.  I know we bought that extra part that was like $500 so what your telling me is NO PVC should be used at all.

A real pool kit would cost more than $500 with a quality heat exchanger.  I'm not sure what they've actually sold you, but if it's what I'm looking at, well your gonna need some help, and hopefully that pool water hasn't entered the boiler
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 16, 2013, 09:28:43 AM
I'm really ineterested in this, ifmyou would like to talk about it, give me a call, number is at the bottom, but I wanna know more about what was done here and we can then share the details of the findings here on the forum..
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: fireboss on March 16, 2013, 11:07:25 AM
scott the first thing I saw no mixing valve hope fully they are not mixing the pool water in the stove
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 16, 2013, 11:19:11 AM
scott the first thing I saw no mixing valve hope fully they are not mixing the pool water in the stove

I think they plumbed it to have the pool pump pool water in and out of the stove, I see no heat exchangers seperating anything

I'd say there water goes from 180 to pool temperature in about 3-4 minutes
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: yoderheating on March 16, 2013, 09:08:13 PM
 Surely no dealer would okay a direct connect? Which goes back to what I always say, you can pay for the best furnace on the market but without a knowledgeable dealer you are possibly throwing money down the drain.
 The other guys on here are correct, if it is plumbed direct disconnect and flush the furnace ASAP!
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 17, 2013, 09:03:09 AM
Yep, I'm afraid this is a mess, wish we could learn more about it.

Some of the worst installs I've seen n service calls were done by electricians and plumbers, usually plumbers. Wow.

It's been said many times, a good dealer is crucial, and there aren't a lot of them.  I can't believe how many sell stoves but don't do installs
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Timkerry on March 18, 2013, 04:13:43 PM
We do have the pool heat exchanger. It is located under the wood burner where it is suppose to be.  The PVC goes into the pool heat exhchanger.  Their is no pool water mixed in with the wood burner.  I repeat no pool chemicals in with the woodburner water.  It was professional installed but....... We are trying to heat 17000 gallons of pool water.   What are our options? The wood burner kicks out hot water to the pool for apx 5- 10 mins. Then the wood burner temp drops significantly fast.  Then no more heat to pool until the temp of the wood burner rises again.  Husband wonders if it would be beneficial to adjust the t valves to restrict the water flow to the pool as an option? We don't understand why it doesn't heat the whole pool...
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 18, 2013, 04:29:39 PM
Because it wasn't properly installed.  There is simply no way you could spend an extra 500 and properly tie in a pool to an owb.  The fitting,valve, and electrical kit would cost that much before ever buying a quality heat exchanger designed for swimming pools.  Which should cost that much more again. 

I have included a pic here to show you what it should look like. 

(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t387/Scott7m/7175C39E-39A0-46F6-ADF7-FBC1DD87D668-196-00000046E37A6A33.jpg)


The stove obviously works, heating 17,000 gallons is a big chore but it can do it if it was properly installed.  It won't raise it 3 degrees an hour or so, but will increase pool temp slowly over a day or two period and them be able to maintain it. 

You earlier said though it was installed by an electrician, but now are claiming it was professionally installed????   

Any way to get more pics of the heat exchanger set ups??? 

Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 18, 2013, 04:31:35 PM
If you look at the pic, it's aqua-stat controlled.  For example if you set the desired pool temp for 82, it will keep it on 82
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Timkerry on March 18, 2013, 04:33:39 PM
He is an electrician/plumber who owns his own company. It wasn't installed by a dealer.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Timkerry on March 18, 2013, 04:40:38 PM
The pool heat exchanger is located under the wood burner....... The pool heat exchanger is connected to the wood burner through cooper piping.   The PVC is hooked up to the pool heat exchanger and the pool system. This is all we have...... We do not have an aqua stat or any of the other things you show in your pic.

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Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 18, 2013, 04:58:27 PM
Hey thanks for the pics...  Yea there is more to making this work than what you have, having it set up like that will always be problems, and there is no way to really control it, where as the system I showed works via thermostat to give you the temp you want. 

There are many plumbers and electricians out there that do excellent work, but hydronic heating is a lot different than plumbing in general
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Timkerry on March 18, 2013, 05:16:01 PM
True regarding contractors..... We have what we have, and need to make it work to our advantage.  Cost well over $500 and no heated pool.   We are thinking to control the water flow through the pool heat plate exchanger With the T valve we have.  Possibly lower the owb temp to 120 vs our normal winter 175.   Your set up looks ideal! Wished we would have seen that 7 years ago when we installed it :/ the dealer who sold us everything is no longer a dealer.  He took on other ventures........   
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 18, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
You can't operate an owb at temps that low, it would rust out within one summer.

When heating pools water temps should be no less than 180 and often times folks run 190-195

Moisture escaping the wood during the burning process would be clinging to those cold boiler walls and pooling in the ashes.   Cb has standards now that there return water temps can come back no less than 150, to avoid damaging the stove due to cold water temps, that doesn't mean you can set your stove at 150 and be fine, it means that after going through the heat exchangers it's still over 150 when it reaches the stove
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: RSI on March 18, 2013, 08:19:52 PM
You should have a bypass to allow some of the boiler water to go past the plate. It might work to just restrict the valve on the return side but the water will be cold returning to the boiler.

You should adjust it till the boiler runs almost constant without idling much but the temperature never drops much.

Keep it set high like Scott said. It will take a long time to heat the pool. You shouldn't expect it to be able to raise the temperature much over 1 degree per hour and it might not even be able to do that.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: yoderheating on March 18, 2013, 08:25:58 PM
 I completely agree with RSI, pool heating is a slow process. Get everything set right and throw the wood to it for a few days.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: willieG on March 18, 2013, 08:42:26 PM
your pool holds 17,000 gallons of water  (about 140,000 pounds)  so you need 140,000 btu to raise your pool 1 degree (not counting the normal heat loss of your pool) from what i can find on the net your model of stove is rated (depending on a few things) for 250,000 (so likley you are near its maximum output)

by your photos it looks as though you may have 3/4 or 1 inch lines from your OWB to the plate exchanger,,,3/4 lines would maybe move  9 gpm  and if they are 1 inch perhaps 14 gallons (really pushing it)  and your pool lines look like they may be 1 1/4 (if so they could be pushing 21 gpm)

most pools are designed with a pump that will change the pool water 1 time in a 24 hour period that would be about 12 gpm (then again some pool salesmen like to sell you a bigger pump to help keep the pool cleaner and gives more suction to the vacume)

lets say you are pumping pool water at 12 gpm and OWB at 9 gpm...you will cool the water so fast you wont see an increase in the pool water temp (although it is there) and you are likely cooling the return water to a dangerous level

i would suggest you slow the pool water  gpm to something low enough that the delta  of your furnace water (in and out temps) is no more than 20 degrees. this will allow  you to see some difference in the water temps of the in and out of the pool water. it will take longer to heat your pool but it will be better for your stove. also you may consider an aquastat to control the pool temp.

another thing to consider is a pool cover, i have read on the net they can save you up to 25 percent of a heating bill (wood in your case)
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: RSI on March 18, 2013, 09:28:35 PM
Lowering the pool water flow rate is not a good idea if you go too low. It could get over the maximum rating of the PVC pipe. As long as you are only giving the heat exchanger enough boiler flow to lose the required heat, the water in the PVC will stay cooler.

Also, if there is no thermostatic valve on the boiler, I would put the pump on the boiler on a thermostat so it shuts of when the temperature drops below 150 degrees. The only time you would want to let the pool pull the boiler down lower than this is if you are shutting down the boiler for a while.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: willieG on March 18, 2013, 10:21:22 PM
pvc is rated for 120 degrees (and that may be under pressure as well?)  you may be right
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: muffin on March 19, 2013, 06:54:30 AM
Odd they used a plat exchanger as they are flow restrictive.  I think a tube in shell is the preferred method.  What type of pool do you have, chlorine or salt?  If it is salt, you are going to have problems down the road.  The PVC can also be a problem.  My system malfunctioned and flowed boiler water when the pool was off.  The PCV fittings started leaking pretty bad.  I am surprised they ran the pool to the boiler.  That seems strange as the pool is the high speed water and should stay short loop.  The boiler water can go as far as you want with little care.  You do need some sort of control as everyone is saying.  Otherwise the boiler will not be able to keep up or you will boil the water in the pool.  A simple aquastat controlling the pump (boiler side) will do the trick.  It you want something a little cooler, check out digital thermometers on ebay.  They run about $20 and are very good.  I use two, one to activate the pool heater system and one to override it if the boiler temp is too low and disable the whole pool heating system.  They also run off the pool pump, so it cannot heat if the pump isn't running.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: fireboss on March 19, 2013, 03:28:14 PM
It took a lot less then 500$ to heat my pool I have a 10 plate ex and a thermostatic valve ,07 taco pump and 20 feet of 1" un insulated pex I keep my pool between 85 and 90 all summer until oct
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 19, 2013, 04:59:26 PM
It took a lot less then 500$ to heat my pool I have a 10 plate ex and a thermostatic valve ,07 taco pump and 20 feet of 1" un insulated pex I keep my pool between 85 and 90 all summer until oct

How does your pool pump work properly going through something as restrictive as a 10 plate???
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Timkerry on March 19, 2013, 08:27:24 PM
Actually it was like $598 for the add ons for the pool to be heated.  Not to mention the 10k for the owb!
But who is counting all the $$$$?  I just want a warm pool.... Seems like soo many different answers :/ which is best?? And the pool is chlorine not salt water.
Whatever is the least complicated to get this going in the right direction is best. Hubs works 75+ hrs a week and I need to get it done or hire it done.  Thanks!
Ps if someone can spell it out cut and dry what I need done to tell a CONTRACTOR not a thermo contractor but a JOE CONTRACTOR what to do would be amazing!!!! Put it in simple terms so the contractor don't screw it up (again) ???
Thank you so much!!!
The Mrs.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: yoderheating on March 19, 2013, 09:51:05 PM
Scott, I've heated a number of smaller pools using something as small as a 3/4 10 plate I just don't run it through the pvc pool line. The way I do it is to drop a little submersible pump ($60) on a 1 inch line into the pool that simply loops through the 10 plate. The 10 plate doesn't pull enough to worry too much about return temps. On a pool of 10,000 gals or less you can heat it for fairly cheep, the only thing is you have a small pump in the pool and 2 lines running over the edge into it. Most people just jerk it out when they are using the pool and drop it back in when they are done. Works like a charm. I think I charged about $400 on the last job for parts and labor.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 19, 2013, 10:13:03 PM
Scott, I've heated a number of smaller pools using something as small as a 3/4 10 plate I just don't run it through the pvc pool line. The way I do it is to drop a little submersible pump ($60) on a 1 inch line into the pool that simply loops through the 10 plate. The 10 plate doesn't pull enough to worry too much about return temps. On a pool of 10,000 gals or less you can heat it for fairly cheep, the only thing is you have a small pump in the pool and 2 lines running over the edge into it. Most people just jerk it out when they are using the pool and drop it back in when they are done. Works like a charm. I think I charged about $400 on the last job for parts and labor.

Yea there are many ways, your way def has some benefits for sure
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: yoderheating on March 20, 2013, 08:58:55 AM
 And of course that is not how I normally do it but if the home owner needs a cheap alternative it is an option. 
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: fireboss on March 21, 2013, 02:42:32 PM
scott I use the pool filter on one side of plate ex and I put a by pass valve in between and that's what I use to control the temp !its a simple as it can get, its all pvc 
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: Scott7m on March 21, 2013, 03:16:03 PM
scott I use the pool filter on one side of plate ex and I put a by pass valve in between and that's what I use to control the temp !its a simple as it can get, its all pvc

When the water is flowing through the plate do you notice a big difference in flow back into the pool?
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: RSI on March 21, 2013, 03:23:23 PM
I would keep an eye on the plate. The chemicals in the pool water are very corrosive to the copper in the brazing holding the plate together. If it fails you will want to make sure the water doesn't mix.
Title: Re: In ground pool heated with Central Boiler 5036... Hot water doesn't keep flowing
Post by: fireboss on March 21, 2013, 03:32:22 PM
only when I open the valve all the way I know what you r saying about going threw a 10 plate I keep it open about half way . Its like a mixing valve.