Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Username: Password:

Author Topic: The chemical free boiler  (Read 3852 times)

greasemonkoid

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
  • OWF Model: NCB175
  • wnc mountains
    • View Profile
The chemical free boiler
« on: June 27, 2018, 03:54:12 PM »

There was an engineer who spent years designing a device to take the place of boiler chemical. His claim was that dissolved oxygen in the water is what actually causes the reaction with iron. From my brief research this is true. The old man believed that if you could raise the kinetic energy of the water molecules to a certain level it would be possible for the oxygen to become unbound - or undissolved. After much work he supposedly created the formula for making this effect take place (whatever it's called). The chemical guys laughed and took offense calling it snake oil. Well, I could understand that.

The man created the device, patented it and sold the units in CA, at some point his salesman hacked all of the installed units up and sold for scrap metal. Some time later he moved to the East and set up shop. There are a number of closed loop boilers in the area, and to my knowledge even up to 500hp boilers that are using this thing with rather incredible results.

I don't see how an open vent boiler could be much different aside from lower temperatures - in regard to eliminating dissolved oxygen - but I'm no expert. There is one unit at work that I maintain. The components are very simple, but the design formula was supposedly specific to the boiler.

I almost agreed to help the man weld part of the conditioners, but it didn't materialize. He had a great thing going, unfortunately at the expense of the chemical guys. They still call the whole thing snake oil, but every year at inspection time the tubes on ours look to be in top shape. The inspector claims the boilers around that have these units are quite clean.
 
It would sure be nice to have such a device on a wood boiler, but it's too bad the old man took the formulas with him when he died. He was paranoid about someone else getting them. Just wondering if any of you guys have heard of such a thing in other parts of the country.

Logged

patvetzal

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
  • OWF Brand: Portage and Main
  • OWF Model: ML36
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2018, 04:13:08 PM »

I've been told that if you heat the water close to boiling, then the O2  is driven out. No O2, no rust.
Logged
80 acres of Bancroft bush and Ontario rock, a sweet wife, a few chickens, fishing rod, most everything I need....Most of it made by John Deere, Polaris, Stihl, Ruger, Jeep or me...

wreckit87

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 659
  • OWF Brand: Heatmaster
  • OWF Model: C375
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2018, 06:23:51 PM »

It's just that blue device? Almost looks like a repurposed sidearm HX with half an air separator on top.... I'm having trouble deciphering where the water moves, seeing as it appears to enter the outer shell and exit the inner tube (or vice versa, the motor has been rotated 90 degrees) which should be separated. Where do the flex lines come from/go to? Does all feedwater pass through it on the way into the boiler perhaps? Would make a little sense to scrub the feedwater of microbubbles prior to entering the vessel. We don't see a lot of Hurst boilers here in the midwest and I've definitely never seen that contraption, but it is rather interesting to avoid chemical in a steam system
Logged

E Yoder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2018, 08:26:05 PM »

Hmm, I wonder what it does about electrolysis. Sounds interesting.
Looks like a sidearm to me too.
Logged
HeatMaster dealer serving southwest VA.
www.heatmasterfurnace.com

greasemonkoid

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
  • OWF Model: NCB175
  • wnc mountains
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 11:17:13 PM »

The unit is due for a cleaning, I'll snap a pic of the guts. Basically the core is a copper tube with magnets within properly spaced, not sure on the flux polarity, but they are moreless paired together every inch or so. From what I can remember he said the water flows in the jacket, between the core and outer shell, and the kinetic energy of the water molecules is raised by some means and separation takes place. Seems like he mentioned the molecules slammed up against the copper tube, this would explain why the tube is clean over every pair of magnets - I guess. Pure oxygen exhausts through a vent in the top. He said flow velocity was critical, never did understand that one because it looks to be a simple 26-99 stuck in there.

Yes, it is the blue unit, it circulates the makeup tank water so there is no pressure in it. Our application was a little different since the system is technically open due to steam injection. A lot of water probably bypasses the conditioner, but then again, a 26-99 can push some gpm in a short loop like that.

I don't believe he once mentioned anything about electrolysis. Most of the time it was difficult to understand because he spoke on a level much higher than my knowledge base.
Logged

mlappin

  • Fabricator Extraordinaire
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4140
  • OWF Brand: homebuilt, now HeatmasterSS
  • OWF Model: Martin Steel Works Gen 1 then, now a G200.
  • North Liberty, Indiana
    • View Profile
    • Altheatsolutions
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2018, 05:59:48 AM »





Since a wood boiler also runs at a lower temperature, would getting rid of all the free oxygen (if it actually could) would having zero free oxygen prevent organic growth?

Usually most of your boiler treatments for open systems raise the PH quite a bit which is whats supposed to discourage slime/algae/bacteria from growing in the water.

Logged
Stihl 023
Stihl 362
Stihl 460
Sachs Dolmar 112 and 120
Homemade skid steer mounted splitter, 30" throat, 5" cylinder
Wood-Eze model 8100 firewood processor

HeatmasterSS dealer for Northern Indiana

greasemonkoid

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
  • OWF Model: NCB175
  • wnc mountains
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2018, 10:12:55 PM »

It's amazing anything will grow in that stuff, also a common problem with aircraft fuel cells. Where there is oxygen there is life.




Here is the core, would love to reverse engineer one that has been removed from service.




Logged

wreckit87

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 659
  • OWF Brand: Heatmaster
  • OWF Model: C375
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2018, 03:22:08 PM »

That's really cool grease, thanks for sharing. Got my nerd wheels turning now....
Logged

E Yoder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • OWF Brand: HeatMaster
  • OWF Model: GS 100
    • View Profile
    • www.heatmasterfurnace.com
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2018, 03:32:20 PM »

Yup, making me really wish I knew exactly how it works.
Logged
HeatMaster dealer serving southwest VA.
www.heatmasterfurnace.com

greasemonkoid

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
  • OWF Model: NCB175
  • wnc mountains
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2018, 09:19:29 PM »

I came across some literature the other day. Here is a little technical info that offers more detail on the subject.












Logged

BoilerHouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 368
  • OWF Brand: Home Built
  • OWF Model: Fire Tube/Water Tube
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2018, 06:47:43 AM »

Thanks for posting.
Does the Fluidyne unit use energy besides the circulating pump.  It looks like the magnets are permanent and not electric.   
I believe I interpret that your make up tank had a steam injection.  This sounds to me like it is used as a de-aerator, essentially pre-heating the water which will also vent off dissolved oxygen. 
I found it interesting that the Fluidyne system discussed it's ability to precipitate hardness scale.  It specifically mentioned calcium carbonate.  It didn't say what happened to the "solid white crystal", although it sounds like it would pass into the boiler, not settle on tubes and form a hard scale, but be removed with the blowdown. 
I have to question some of the stats presented by Fluidyne.  Your boiler produces about 30,000 lbs of steam per hour, making it a smaller industrial boiler, but still a decent size.  Pre Fluidyne, the blowdown was 50% and the chemical usage was 200 lbs per day.  If this is accurate, both of these are insanely high, although perhaps possible if the system uses a very high percentage of make up water.  Post Fluidyne, the blowdown was 4%, which is normal even with chemical use.  It does not state weather you currently use any chemicals, although, I am assuming not.

I am one of those sceptics - basically a chemical guy, although I never sold them, however I used them and it is all I understand.  However, always willing to learn something new.  You say the boiler is very clean upon inspection with no scale or rusting.  This is the proof of the pudding.  However for me, I will stick with what I know. LOL.
Logged
Muskoka, Ont

greasemonkoid

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
  • OWF Model: NCB175
  • wnc mountains
    • View Profile
Re: The chemical free boiler
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 09:14:14 AM »

A 26-99 Grundfos is the only current consuming part of our system. The magnets in the copper tube are permanent.

That 1000 hp boiler is (was) one of the local clients, there were more papers of others in the packet. The dissolved O2 was suppose to vent through the top of the conditioner unit. I'm not a boiler expert, but as far as I know the makeup tank must be vented to atmosphere. Condensate (aka lazy steam) returns to the tank, mixed with fresh water, and must be pumped back into the boiler. Many systems are not completely closed and have open steam injection nozzles. All of them - closed or open type system must still be blown down on it's specific schedule, chemical or not.

Only time will tell if it protects the boilers as well as chemicals.
Logged