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Author Topic: underground piping  (Read 11252 times)

willieG

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underground piping
« on: September 11, 2010, 05:59:02 PM »

i am considering replacing my underground pipe as the insulation value is deteriorating badly. When i installed this 11 years ago the rage was 1 inch kitec wrapped in 3 layers of bubble rap and run down a 4 inch plastic sewer pipe. In the time it has been underground i believe it has cracked (at least in one spot) and let water into the pipe so now i am heating the earthi as well as the house. i used 1/3 more wood last year that in previous years. I was thinking i could live with that as wood is plevtiful...but i have since thought that just because my wood supply is good,that is no reason to waste it. i want to make it right in case i am not here in the years to come.

I guess my question is what pipe is the best. I like the logstor brand but i also read that for every hundred feet that pex lines can "grow" an inch. does this type of insulation around the pex allow for this? or will it eventually crack? Or should it be run down another tile so it has room to move a little inside it?

I would really like this to be the last time for this underground piping stuff. lol

Any one have thoughts or ideas??
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Scott7m

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 09:44:19 PM »

Heatmasterss sent me a brochure on some awesome pipe, think it's around 13 bucks a foot but it looks amazing! 

180 degrees at the stove, run it 150ft and the temp was 179.7
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juddspaintballs

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 07:36:26 AM »

The best cost effective, permanent solution I've researched so far has been to line a trench with plastic sheeting, buying the OB PEX and laying it in the trench, and then having a contractor spray closed cell foam in the trench, lifting the lines up a couple inches off of the bottom as they go.  The plastic isn't to keep water out, but to keep dirt out of the foam as it's sprayed in.  I'm going 1-1/4" PEX and my cost will be about $10/ft, which is far less than what something like Logstor will cost in 1-1/4" size. 
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Scott7m

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 12:11:31 PM »

I've seen them spray the ditch full of closed cell foam before on a film, looked like it would work well.
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willieG

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 01:26:06 PM »

unless there is new foam that doesn't uptake water this is not a real good idea. I know a fella who had his pipes like that and he had his milk house heated from his wood boiler. He had a fire in the barn and when he rebuilt he had to move his lines a little. He told me he could not lift 12 feet of pipe because the foam had taken on so much water. i don't know if the foam is different now but i would double check this out from suppliers before i did it
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Scott7m

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 06:04:50 PM »

the closed cell foam should not absorb or take on any water.
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willieG

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 06:36:30 PM »

i am no expert on this subject (nor any for that matter) and i am only posting what i found on the web (and that in itself is reason enough to doubt if it is valid or not) the comment below was taken from a "expert" on a home renovation site.

It would take a large amount of closed cell foam to create a truly waterproof surface. Closed cell foam is a vapor retarder by technical definition. The closed cell foam is very, very great at resisting moisture, however it will not completely stop all penetration of moisture. Under most normal circumstances it would do more than an a adequate job.

If this is true i would say that putting this stuff underground would not all under the statement "under most normal circumstances it would be more than adequate"

I know this stuff is used in flotation devices as well but they do not stay in the water for ever. Again i would question this method of insulating your underground pipes with this stuff unless you have a proven moisture barrier around it. Perhaps it will work but I am not willing try it without real proof (someone that has it in the ground for at lest 4 years and no snow melting above it  would go a long way to convincing me)
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Larson88

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 06:18:42 AM »


 i purchased and installed insulated pvc pipe made by insulseal, 4- 10' sections with a 45 and 22.5 degree elbows came to about 400 bucks.
 its 4" pvc pipe with 2 inches of urethane foam around it with a 6mil poyethylene sleeve to protect the foam. its nice cause you can buy any pipe you want and put it throw the pvc and put up to 4 lines thru it with wire. Im happy with it a little expensive but it seems to be the best in my town, you dont want to half ass it when it comes to your underground piping.

  check it out  http://insulseal.com/woodfurnaces.html    for more info.

   i purchased it from    altheatsupply.com
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Dirtslinger

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2010, 02:03:19 PM »

i am no expert on this subject (nor any for that matter) and i am only posting what i found on the web (and that in itself is reason enough to doubt if it is valid or not) the comment below was taken from a "expert" on a home renovation site.

It would take a large amount of closed cell foam to create a truly waterproof surface. Closed cell foam is a vapor retarder by technical definition. The closed cell foam is very, very great at resisting moisture, however it will not completely stop all penetration of moisture. Under most normal circumstances it would do more than an a adequate job.

If this is true i would say that putting this stuff underground would not all under the statement "under most normal circumstances it would be more than adequate"

I know this stuff is used in flotation devices as well but they do not stay in the water for ever. Again i would question this method of insulating your underground pipes with this stuff unless you have a proven moisture barrier around it. Perhaps it will work but I am not willing try it without real proof (someone that has it in the ground for at lest 4 years and no snow melting above it  would go a long way to convincing me)



Willie go to Woodmasters website they have some nice underground pipe I used it and it works great I think its around 11 or 12 bucks a foot.
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shawbran

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2010, 09:07:01 PM »

We just bought thermoflex from a local dealer at around 7.50 a ft plus shipping which was 180.00 shipped to our door.  Dealer says he can get it in 100', 200' and 250' sections.  We installed it tonight actually for the new stoves that we pick up next week
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CORVAIRWILD

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2010, 06:45:10 AM »

My wife and I are buying a 1500SqFt (Log) house with a 5400SqFt warehouse. We're planning to heat the warehouse with a Waste Oil Boiler, as it's zoned commercial, and I will be doing Fleet repairs to my cars and lite trucks, and rustproofing vehicles with grease. Anyways, the house is about 125 feet away, separated by the driveway, soooooooo.....

I priced the blue 4" corr plastic with two  1 1/4 pipes, and locally it's $15 -$18 a foot, which IMO, is NUTS!!! A freind found various other similar UP (underground piping) for alot less, but I was concerned about the heat loss with only about 1" of insulation.

Soooooo..... without having read this post, I thought to buy 8 or 10" corrugated ridgid sewer pipe, barrier PEX suitable for the heat of the boiler, which can exit as high as 240f, but I'll run it much less if neccesary, and have a foam truck on the site to fill the sewer pipe as I lowered it into place, using some kind of brace to center the piping. Possibly 1" wood with two 1 1/2" holes inserted every few feet as we went along.

One of the things the Clean Burn Boiler (waste oil)  tech told me was return temp must be above 140f, and below that, ash will condense on the boiler tubes, causing corrosion. To avoid this, I'd go with the extra closed cell foam in the trench, and they have a tempering valve to add outlet hot water to the return to maintain adequate temp

I'd have to use the corr sewer pipe as opposed to just foam in a trench with poly, as the whse is separated by the driveway.

Here's the prices I got...

Heat Barrier PEX      1 1/4" 20' @ $56

Heat Barrier PEX                  2" @ $115

Corrugated roll          6"   100' @$140         

Corrugated Ridgid    8"  1 foot @$6.50

Corrugated Ridgid   10" 1 foot@$10.50

Spray foam truck? No Clue, but I'd budget $1000
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juddspaintballs

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2010, 05:52:16 PM »

I got an estimate from a foam company near me for $9-$10/ft of closed cell foam 2-3" thick around my 1-1/4" lines. 
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CORVAIRWILD

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2010, 10:14:03 PM »

I would rather use 8 or 10" of foam inside a sewer pipe. I have to use the sewer pipe, and the driveway is between the house a shop. Lots of tarmac, as it's a turnaround for the overhead doors of the shop, and garage attached to the house. An easy 125', maybe more! When we close on the prop, I'll obviously get an accurate measurement!
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juddspaintballs

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 03:29:27 PM »

i agree filling the entire 8-10" pipe with foam would provide you with an excellent thermal barrier, but at a certain point the extra foam is simply not cost effective at all.  it's quite unlikely you're going to measure a temperature difference between a 3" coating all the way around and a 4" coating all the way around (that would be 1-1/4" pipe centered in 10" pipe) but your wallet will feel the sting.  i'd probably go with 6" pipe if i were putting mine inside pipe.
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CORVAIRWILD

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Re: underground piping
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2010, 08:20:28 AM »

Before I buy anything, I'll get firm price quotes. My wife is VERY fussy about that. No playing around. We'll figure the volume, and get a cooperative foamer. It's a slower pace of life around here, and the truck drivers are under less pressure. The foamer will prolly be the owner of the company, and I don't like sticking it to anyone, as it's a small community, and word gets around, keeps everyone honest.

I'll have some drilled blocks of pine to install in the sewer pipe to hold the PEX in place to center it. Maybe every 3-4-5 feet? Sounds like alot of blocks, but the PEX will want to droop to the outside/bottom of the corr. Maybe I'll just need a 2" wide stick of wood with a 1/2 circle to hold the PEX in place???

Maybe we'll spray the bottom of the corr 1/2 first, let it set, then draw pipes thru, then foam the balance... It'll be trial and error. These forums are fantastic fer ideas BEFORE the big GOOF!!!
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