Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: DBeleskey on September 07, 2018, 08:12:00 AM
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Hi Everyone
I am doing the install of my Polar G2 boiler. I'm trying to figure out what pumps to use and where they should be located. I was looking at the Grundfos Alpha 1 pumps.
I have two runs from the boiler both using LogStor 1" pipe. The house run is about 100 ft and slightly downhill to the basement. I thought it best to install the pump in the basement for this run ?
The second run is about 50 ft to my garage and is uphill I would think about 5 ft by the time it gets into the garage. I plan on putting a ceiling heater in there so it would be another 12 ft to the ceiling. I understand that the ECM pumps can't be mounted in the back of the OWB because of temperature issues...I don't know. If that is true, what options do I have for the garage run ? I would like to have energy efficient pumps on both runs if possible.
Thanks
Dave
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I've got a few Alphas out in the boiler cabinet with no issues. I'm not familiar with Polar, but the way Richard brags them up I would assume you could store ice in the cabinet due to their superior insulation. Any open system should have the pump at the stove, as these aren't really pumps so much as circulators and are not designed to pull water- only push. What will you have in the house for exchangers? 100ft of Logstor alone is just about max for an Alpha on the fixed 3rd speed, so any amount of restriction from exchangers and/or elbows will drastically reduce your flow rate. Flow should be fine for the garage; that 17ft of lift will cancel itself back out on the way down as long as you don't break the vacuum after it's established that will pump fine from the stove. Otherwise I'm told Taco is going to be coming out with an ECM circ of the 011 variety sometime this fall if you wanted to stick with ECM for the house. Regular Grundfos circs seems to be best on power consumption over other brands if you need to stick with regular ones. Where did you hear the ECM can't be in the heat?
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Thanks for the reply wreckit87...in the house is fairly simple. I will come through the wall and go up about 8 ft. Then across about 12 ft to the furnace and a 18"x18" water to air exchanger. From there across about 8ft to a 30 plate exchanger for DHW then back out to the boiler.
I was told about the heat issue with the ECM circulators from the somewhat local guy I have been getting my supplies from. I am new to this so, I'm really not sure what I should be using. I just don't want to be using a lot of power to operate these pumps year round. That is why I was looking at the ECM circulators. I also don't want to be running into circulation issues with under powered units.
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Goto your domestic hot water (DHW) first, then the furnace, you can heat a house with 120 degree water, won’t get much hot water though. So, water heater first, then furnace.
Elevation changes if nothing major don’t figure into flow. Yes you have to pump the water back up to the stove, but it will flow downhill on its own. So the elevation change negates itself.
Keep the pumps at the boiler, much much easier to get all the air bled out of the lines then.
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I had originally planned on having the pumps at the boiler until the guy I get my stuff from suggested that I shouldn't because of heat issues with the Alpha pumps. Makes more sense to me for them to be at the boiler too.
I just have concerns with regards to sizing for the pumps. As wreckit87 mentioned, the 100 ft run is pushing the max for the Alpha pumps. Is it possible to put two pumps in the 100 foot run ? Say one at the boiler and one in the house ?
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Is there a reason for running the pumps year-round instead of just during heating season? DHW perhaps? It is possible to run 2 pumps in series if you wish, but I'd bolt them together instead of having one on each end and pull the check valves out. This would still only take 90 watts versus 180 for a 26-99 to accomplish the same thing. Assuming you have the room in the boiler cabinet, that is
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The only reason I was going to run the pumps year round was that I have heard it's best to do so. As I mentioned before, I am new to this game and sometimes I think the more I read about this the more I get confused. I have read that it is the norm to run the pumps year round. If that is not the case, it would be a lot better for me ?
With the 100 ft run to the house and the 50 ft run to the garage, what size and type of pump would be recommended ?
I thought of the two pump scenario because I thought I was reaching the max for the Alpha ECM pumps ?
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There is no need to run the circs year-round. That's a common thing for Taco guys because they tend to seize after months of inactivity, but the Grundfos and B&G don't have that problem. If it were my job I'd put a 26-99FC on the house loop and 15-58FC on the garage loop. You can certainly go the twin Alpha route if you want to save some power, but do the math on payback. Extra $175 for the 3 Alphas upfront, to save 120 watts per hour. That's 2.9 kw/day, 518kw for a 6 month period of burning. If you pay $.10 for power, it'll take over 3 years to break even and then have a $52/yr savings after that. Makes decent sense if you plan to stay there awhile. I like the simplicity of the 15-58 and 26-99 myself, but that's only a personal opinion. Nothing wrong with saving some electricity!
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Good to know that the pumps don't need to run all year. I would much rather not run them all the time but I was concerned of seize up, but if the Grundfos don't have that problem all the more reason to go that route.
I would like to save electricity but not at the expense of good performance. I want to get the most out of the boiler as possible. I do plan on staying her for a long time so, I would like to do it right the first time if possible.
I think I will go with what you suggested, the 26-99FC on the house loop and 15-58FC on the garage loop. Makes more sense than doubling up on the Alpha's. I would have to take into account the power used by two pumps on the run instead of one.
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Check eBay for the pumps, there is usually a good deal to be had on each of them
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Just doing a little research on the UPS 26-99FC. Have you ever heard them referred to as "SuperBrute" ?
I found a product number on the Grundfos site that matches the one we have been talking about under the SuperBrute category. Just want to make sure I am looking in the right direction .
Strangely, just heard back from the guy I had been dealing with earlier. He recommends the Alpha2 15-55. With all we have been talking about I don't understand how he comes up with that ?
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I have seen the super brute ones but can't see any difference in them versus the regular one. Alpha2 is an even bigger waste of money than the Alpha1. The only difference is more settings, which are useless in an OWB application. They are designed for multi-zone systems to sense pressure drop and speed the pump up as more zones open. It'd just run on fixed speed 3 in your application and all those settings are worthless. Sounds like you need a new heating guy who knows something about hydronics. Most of these guys just throw an off the shelf pump at everything and call it a day without ever knowing WHY they do it. The Alpha1 and Alpha2 have the same curve and are both undersized for your application like we've discussed
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Yes, I agree. I don't see any difference between the two in GPM or Head. I am still going with what you suggested. Makes more sense to me, even though I am new to this. His pricing is good, that's why I use him. It's not easy to find accessories for hydronics around here and shipping prices kill when you add them from other places. I also get a big break on shipping so it makes it worth while to get things there except for advise...:)
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Ha, understood! For these circs though, I still recommend ebay. $155 for a 26-99 with free shipping
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Can't find those pumps that cheap with free shipping. I looked on ebay and most places I can find won't ship to Canada or they want a whole bunch, $150+ USD for shipping. I will keep looking though...
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I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were in Canada. I just looked right now and there are a whole bunch listed at $147-155 with free shipping but I'm not sure how that works to ship to Canada
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I will look again but usually with the shipping charges, exchange rate and brokerage fees the cost to get the item here is more than the actual cost of the item.
Like I said, I will look around again.
Thanks
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I will look again but usually with the shipping charges, exchange rate and brokerage fees the cost to get the item here is more than the actual cost of the item.
Like I said, I will look around again.
Thanks
Out of curiosity, how does that work exactly? Do the brokerage fees only apply to items over a certain amount?
I bought some Pyrex site glasses when I made my own view ports for the secondary combustion chambers, came out to roughly 4 bucks apiece from Pegasus Glass in Canada, don’t recall the shipping being excessive.
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It depends mostly on the carrier. UPS is the most expensive with regards to brokerage fees. USPS for us is the least expensive however, most people use a carrier like UPS, Purolator, etc.
If I can find someone who will ship USPS then it still may turn out cheaper. But, I really won't know until I get them in my hands, then I will find out any fees and taxes that might be applied. Kind of a gamble, so I need lots of wiggle room on the price.
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Going to order my pumps. Did a more precise measurement for the distances once I got the pipes in the ground..
I am 50' from furnace to garage as I first thought but, I am 80' from the furnace to the house instead of the 100' I originally anticipated.. Will I still be okay with the Grundfos 26-99FC on the house loop and 15-58FC on the garage ?
Just wanted to double check, if I found later that I could have safely used the ALPHA pumps and didn't I would hate myself :-[
Still plan on putting whatever is best at the furnace for both...
Thanks for all your help with this you guys have been great :)
I am sure you will hear more from me...
It's been snowing here for two days now !!
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At 80' I would use a 15-58 or an alpha sized pump (I actually use B&G) on smaller houses/ heat loads. But I dont think you mentioned what the system is you're tieing into, or piping distance in the house?
But with the 26-99 being a 3 speed you can possibly save electricity by running on a lower speed once you test it all out. You'll definitely hear varying opinions though, a lot had to do with the type of heating system and the delta t they can heat well with..
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I don't remember which model I have of pumps, but I think they're both Grundfos. I have 225' of 1.25" pipe from the stove to my basement, and keep the pump in the basement. My basement is a little lower than the stove so it may be helping to circulate as the water naturally wants to flow to the basement, but it's been working fine for me. My garage run is about 25' and I keep the pump in the garage as well. It pushes the water up to the heater on a 10' ceiling.
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Ya, I am just tight when it comes to electricity...the less I can use the better but, I don't want to install the pumps to find out they won't work. Takes a lot of electricity use to regain that loss.
I have a Polar G2. I had originally wanted to use the Grundfos Alpha pumps because they have ECM motors and use away less electricity to operate. But, my pumps will have to be at the furnace and with the distances I don't know if they will work.
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It makes no difference on pump size if it is at the stove or house.
You could put alpha pumps on and if you don't get enough flow, put another in series. Or to save money, put a 15-58 in series and put a sensor on the pipe so it only runs the second pump when it senses low water temp.
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Thanks, everyone..
I think I will go with the 26-99FC on the house loop and 15-58FC on the garage loop as Wreckit87 mentioned a few posts back, seems like the safest bet. I think by the time I try and incorporate two pumps and sensors and whatever else, I might just as well go with what was suggested. I figure I will more than likely do something wrong on my first try but I would like to keep the expense of the mistakes to a minimum..