Print

[Roger2561]

Any time an "installer"  voids another appliances warranty is wrong, I don't care of the heat exchange advantages. Its unethical. If there is a 10-15 degree loss of exchange then he did it wrong. Use the correct HX. All too often OWB design is compromised by the seller or installer for fear of loosing the job because of the increased expense to do the job right. We do many pasteurizers and they require large plate exchangers to maintain temps for health saftey. If thats what is needed to do the job right then this needs to be explained thoroughly to the customer. Instead his oil boiler with a 30 year warranty is void, so too are all the pumps unless they are bronze or stainless. Same goes for the cheap underground supply pipes, cheap it out to get the job. Its sux loosing a job but atleast you know your work is right and your workmanship is covered by your insurance policy and most important your customers interest and investment is covered as well. Insurance does not cover non code compliant work, same as manufacturer's warranties. If you read some boilers I&O manuals they state must be installed by licensed or qualified installer. It always cost more up front to do it the right way, but it saves you soooo much in the long run, not to mention peace of mind.  Some of those OWB treatments are not for cast iron boilers, only the manufacturer can tell you this. Just like the boiler seal voids all indoor boiler warranties. I have never seen a well informed customer say , "yes I want to void my boilers warranty by cheaping out on some components." or " well if you just use this much less expensive underground pipe you can save half the money, but you will have to burn twice as much wood, and you might have a soggy puddle in your yard, and your OWB will have a hard time suppling anything over 160* to your house. But you will save lots of money on the pipe". There is nothing cheap about hydronic heating except for long term cost when done right. Anytime somebody does something like this, only gives the wood fuel industry a bad name. The industry needs to protect itself. By the way are there any zones located above the water level of the OWB, like a second floor?

When someone tells me they are a licensed and qualified installer, I generally take their word that they know what they are doing like an auto mechanic.

Now, I want to protect my investment - indoor as well as outdoor - in one of the pics it shows a ball valve being partially closed.  The installer said it is to aid in keeping the oil furnace pressurized.  Is this incorrect info that the installer gave me?  If it is, I'm going after him and report to my dealer of his installer's practices.  If you feel it is better that I install a heat exchanger, I'll save my pennies during the down time and have one installed.  I just don't know what size I'll need.   

As for the underground piping, I went with what Central Boiler sells.  I've been told and read that it's the best on the market regarding insulation and durability.  It had better be the best at nearly $13.00/ft. 75 feet used.

No zone going to the second floor, yet.  Perhaps in very distant future but not now.

Thanks for the link.  I'll be doing some reading during my lunch break at work.   Roger     

[boilerman]

I still believe indoor boilers can be plumbed direct successfully and your installer did not take you for a ride. I'm certainly not saying there is anything wrong with using an exchanger, but am open to the following facts..... There are 1,000's of boilers plumbed direct from various OWF manufacturers. Most show both options in their owners manuals or websites. Roger and I have Central Boiler products. For instance, look at a CB owners manual, CB Brochure or CB Website....CB shows install illustrations for both using Plate Exchangers and Direct Hook ups for boilers. Do you think a company as large as CB other established OWF companies that have been around since the early 1980's would show these diagrams if they were wrong or their customers were having equipment failures? I would doubt it.  Most of this negativism I believe is coming from closed pressurized system, old school plumbers (no offense) that don't understand what corrosion inhibitors can do to protect the metal throughout the system and have done so in open systems for years.  I also know for a fact you can feed upper level floors with a direct plumbed system and the water will not run over out at the lower OWF as long as no air can enter the loop and the water auto feed valve has been turned off, please read the info I put in my previous thread above. A good example would be to put a straw in a glass of water, put your thumb over the top end, you can lift the straw up with the water in it until it breaks the surface. Only then will it drain out. Many of these "pressurized experts" also state you must use expensive brass pumps because cast iron pumps will fail in an open system. Again my 11 year old 009 Taco standard cast pump is still working fine (knock on wood)
If you still plan to use an exchanger, I would recommend a 5"x12"x50 plate exchanger if your existing indoor boiler is rated at 150,000BTU or less. Which it more than likely is. Again, I believe either install works and is safe with proper corroision inhibitor water treatment in either case and the dealer should probably go over both options and cost differences with the customer, allowing the customer to make the final decision.

[RSI]

I still believe indoor boilers can be plumbed direct successfully and your installer did not take you for a ride. I'm certainly not saying there is anything wrong with using an exchanger, but am open to the following facts..... There are 1,000's of boilers plumbed direct from various OWF manufacturers. Most show both options in their owners manuals or websites. Roger and I have Central Boiler products. For instance, look at a CB owners manual, CB Brochure or CB Website....CB shows install illustrations for both using Plate Exchangers and Direct Hook ups for boilers. Do you think a company as large as CB other established OWF companies that have been around since the early 1980's would show these diagrams if they were wrong or their customers were having equipment failures? I would doubt it.  Most of this negativism I believe is coming from closed pressurized system, old school plumbers (no offense) that don't understand what corrosion inhibitors can do to protect the metal throughout the system and have done so in open systems for years.  I also know for a fact you can feed upper level floors with a direct plumbed system and the water will not run over out at the lower OWF as long as no air can enter the loop and the water auto feed valve has been turned off, please read the info I put in my previous thread above. A good example would be to put a straw in a glass of water, put your thumb over the top end, you can lift the straw up with the water in it until it breaks the surface. Only then will it drain out. Many of these "pressurized experts" also state you must use expensive brass pumps because cast iron pumps will fail in an open system. Again my 11 year old 009 Taco standard cast pump is still working fine (knock on wood)
If you still plan to use an exchanger, I would recommend a 5"x12"x50 plate exchanger if your existing indoor boiler is rated at 150,000BTU or less. Which it more than likely is. Again, I believe either install works and is safe with proper corroision inhibitor water treatment in either case and the dealer should probably go over both options and cost differences with the customer, allowing the customer to make the final decision.

I completely agree. It depends on how the indoor system is setup. If you have a brand new expensive indoor boiler I would use a heat exchanger for sure. If it is older and out of warranty probably not. I am not saying it will void the warranty but it will likely not be pleasant trying to get them to cover it.

If you have an indoor system that needs a high water temp to operate correct then connecting direct will work better. You will have a 10+ degree difference across the heat exchanger and that is just the way it is. You can probably get it down to a few degrees by going with a huge heat exchanger. (something like a 10x20 100 plate would likely give almost the same temp on both sides but is $2500 )

I hear all the time that you can't run in floor heat systems without it being pressurized but it works fine and I haven't seen any difference in how well it works.

[Roger2561]

I still believe indoor boilers can be plumbed direct successfully and your installer did not take you for a ride. I'm certainly not saying there is anything wrong with using an exchanger, but am open to the following facts..... There are 1,000's of boilers plumbed direct from various OWF manufacturers. Most show both options in their owners manuals or websites. Roger and I have Central Boiler products. For instance, look at a CB owners manual, CB Brochure or CB Website....CB shows install illustrations for both using Plate Exchangers and Direct Hook ups for boilers. Do you think a company as large as CB other established OWF companies that have been around since the early 1980's would show these diagrams if they were wrong or their customers were having equipment failures? I would doubt it.  Most of this negativism I believe is coming from closed pressurized system, old school plumbers (no offense) that don't understand what corrosion inhibitors can do to protect the metal throughout the system and have done so in open systems for years.  I also know for a fact you can feed upper level floors with a direct plumbed system and the water will not run over out at the lower OWF as long as no air can enter the loop and the water auto feed valve has been turned off, please read the info I put in my previous thread above. A good example would be to put a straw in a glass of water, put your thumb over the top end, you can lift the straw up with the water in it until it breaks the surface. Only then will it drain out. Many of these "pressurized experts" also state you must use expensive brass pumps because cast iron pumps will fail in an open system. Again my 11 year old 009 Taco standard cast pump is still working fine (knock on wood)
If you still plan to use an exchanger, I would recommend a 5"x12"x50 plate exchanger if your existing indoor boiler is rated at 150,000BTU or less. Which it more than likely is. Again, I believe either install works and is safe with proper corroision inhibitor water treatment in either case and the dealer should probably go over both options and cost differences with the customer, allowing the customer to make the final decision.

I completely agree. It depends on how the indoor system is setup. If you have a brand new expensive indoor boiler I would use a heat exchanger for sure. If it is older and out of warranty probably not. I am not saying it will void the warranty but it will likely not be pleasant trying to get them to cover it.

If you have an indoor system that needs a high water temp to operate correct then connecting direct will work better. You will have a 10+ degree difference across the heat exchanger and that is just the way it is. You can probably get it down to a few degrees by going with a huge heat exchanger. (something like a 10x20 100 plate would likely give almost the same temp on both sides but is $2500 )

I hear all the time that you can't run in floor heat systems without it being pressurized but it works fine and I haven't seen any difference in how well it works.

RSI:  My indoor oil furnace was installed in 1993 making it darned near 20 years old.  I do not know the length of the warranty so I do not know if it's covered still.  Roger

[Hydronix]

Just because it says so in the CB manual doesn't make it right or wrong. That is the problem, people see pictures or read it on the net and think its law. It also says to follow all local and state codes, and to check with the other appliances manufacturer suggestions. There is no cast iron boiler on the market that doesn't void warranty if its ran unpressurized and it doesn't matter what CB approved treatment additive is put in. It has to be approved by both manufacturers. It is also boiler code that the vessel maintains a minimum pressure. Anytime a safety device is bypassed or eliminated it violates code. Also if you read the grundfos,B&G,wilo or taco warranty it does not cover cast pumps in open systems. Doesn't mean that they never have covered one, but thats exactly what their policy is. Thus why you see on some OWB part supply sites bronze and Stainless steel options.
No one said running a 2nd floor can't be done, but if you read the link you would see the problems that "could occur". I don't know about you but if any of these things went in on an install without the customer fully understanding the risks and options, then I can confidently say it was an unqualified installer. These are the very things that give them a bad rap. Anyone here check with the insurance policy, if a problem ever did occur and a forensic engineer has to be called out to find the cause, they can and will void or limit the claim loss of the HO policy if these conditions exist. Or they will go after the installer, and you hope he is licensed and insured. If he's not licensed he can't be held liable for his install, he would be treated as a handyman working under HO direction. So if the boiler does rot out and flood an area , hopefully its limited to less than 10,000 in damage. Each policy is different, but I can assure ,if you have State Farm this is their policy. We cleaned one up last year for SFarm and their remediation contractor was ruthless with expenses on the previous installers dime.

As far as that valve being partially closed, that has no effect on the boiler being pressurized. It is either an open loop or its not. All the installer has to say is you were aware, then its a he said/she said deal in court. If it wasn't inspected by the city then your on the hook. And no inspector would approve that.  There are 1000's of jobs done without pulling permits and inspections, I guess that makes them all in good working order and done right too.
If you draw a line between plumbers,pressurized experts( licensed boiler installers), and yourself , its not good for anyone. You will always be ahead when you help each other out. Similar to you posting here, to help someone out.  If a city official or inspector just dropped by during your install. Will it help you to argue & complain with him or to listen and discuss things so you both understand each other respectfully.  Yes I know there are some that there is no talking to, but you'll never know if you don't try.