Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Earth Outdoor Wood Furnaces => Topic started by: chadley on February 02, 2012, 07:53:55 PM

Title: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: chadley on February 02, 2012, 07:53:55 PM
Compare the Earth and Shaver OWB's for me.  Are they the same company?  I ruled out a shaver cause I didn't like the idea of having to do a bunch of modifying to it so it would run right.  Are the Earth's made the same way?  I'm going to post this is Shaver thread also for those who have shavers.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 02, 2012, 08:06:55 PM
Earth are NOT shaver..

Earth comes with a ranco stat and it's a much much better built product..

They both share some efficiency issues due to the very thick firebox of 1/2". Just having the extra 1/4 of firebox thickness reduces efficiency by 25%

But if your looking for a cheap, but seemingly reliable stove, the earth is the obvious winner.   The prices they post however don't indicate shipping and it's usually 5-600

Also keep in mind that when you buy direct you have no dealer support and that is very important

Earth is a brand I plan to carry this year for those who simply can't shell out that much money, I have enough confidence in them to sell them, but I will explain the efficiency differences n such as so my customers can make an informed decision
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: chadley on February 03, 2012, 06:06:58 AM
So what you are saying is that I will be using 25% more wood with a 1/2 in firebox...?

Shipping from Mo. won't be  aproblem.  My father in law drives a semi there a lot and could pick it up for us to save the money.  If we did that, are you saying we wouldn't have dealer support from our local dealer? If so, why not?

I was pretty well set on the Hawken HE2100 but then heard of these stoves and an equivalent Earth is 2k less. Can you tell me which ones are gassers and which ones aren't?  In our state anything over 350k btu doesn't have to meet EPA regs.  Other than Hawken, I hadn't found a OWB dealer locally that had a non gasser 350k btu OWB.  I plan to call my local dealer and go meet with him on my way home from work.  I have the Hawken dealer coming tomorrow for an estimate.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: candyman on February 03, 2012, 06:15:20 AM
scott,

earth units are not   " CHEAP & SEEMINGLY RELIABLE "  as you stated, they are very  reliable well built units . earth is a family owned & operated  company.
shipping is not 500-600 dollars it depends on you zip code shipping runs roughly  @ $1.00 per mile. i looked at a lots of outdoor units before i decided to become a dealer for  earth  . i talked to the owner & his staff several times, visited a ohio dealer looked at some of his installs, talked to his customers, liked what i saw & heard. when you call earth a human answers the phone.

some of the many reasons i chose to become a   earth outdoor wood burner  dealer.


munster valley farm
 ohio earth outdoor wood burner dealer
 
candyman

any questions, just ask..

as far as dealer support call & ask earth about it, they are the ones that have the final say  how do you arrive at  25% more wood, do you have hard data, & where did you get it ?

Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: chadley on February 03, 2012, 08:07:41 AM
Scott says it takes more wood and time to heat a 1/2 in firebox which causes 25% less efficiency.  So, my question to him was "are you saying I will use 25% more wood" to heat a 1/2 in fire box rather than 1/4 in.

Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 03, 2012, 08:13:17 AM
Candyman, yes they are cheap and seemingly reliable!  When a similar sized furnace of another brand costs 2k more then they are cheaper!!!!

Also, I to have talked to many customers and talked to the company on numerous occasions.  That is where I learned that by talking to customers "they seem to be reliable".   Isn't yours still sitting jn the barn??? 

I myself to offer this to my customers as you saw, so I have no reason to mislead anyone. 

As far as the testing of fireboxes, yes I've seen a lot of data on it and its been discussed many times.  Natures comfort did some testing, there 1/4 thick fire box models were over 13% more efficient than the same stove with a 3/8 firebox.  I have also assisted several people in a neighboring county who build a few units a year..  They always struggled with getting there stoves to heat as much as they thought they should.  They were using 1/2" fireboxes and for the size and capacity they weren't getting the results they had planned.  I pleaded my case time and time again with them..  Finally they started using 1/4" firebox material and there burn times extended by around 4-5 hours, and the only change was the firebox material.

With a fire inside the box the btu's can go through the steel or out the stack, the thicker the steel the longer it takes for heat to transfer to the water hence giving it more time to escape.  Some folks think thick steel stays hot longer, but that fails in comparison about heat transfer.  Were using water to transfer btu's!

As far as as asking earth about dealer support?  My customers will get taken care of No Matter what the company I'm representing has to say.  To downplay the role of the importance of dealers isn't good, if it's mid January with temps near zero what good is a pump sitting on the shelf in the middle of missouri going to do you?  A good dealer program is essential, generally things that fail are things a dealer can take care of in a matter of minutes.  Rather than waiting 2-4 days for a company to ship a part out.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 03, 2012, 08:14:27 AM
Scott says it takes more wood and time to heat a 1/2 in firebox which causes 25% less efficiency.  So, my question to him was "are you saying I will use 25% more wood" to heat a 1/2 in fire box rather than 1/4 in.

Your wood is your fuel, if you lose 25% efficiency, you use 25% more wood.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 03, 2012, 08:32:37 AM
Candyman, shipping for most folks on here would be way over 5-600 at a dollar per mile.  Myself I'm over 600 miles away and most the folks on here live much fiurther north.  This is one of the issues that I've talked to them about a few times.  So sure if someone lives closer of course there shipping will be less.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: chadley on February 03, 2012, 10:33:40 AM
Scott,

I just talked to my local earth dealer and he says it does take longer to heat the 1/2 firebox but once its heated it radiates more heat and will take longer to cool.  So as long as the fire is burning, it will stay at a high temp once it reaches that point. Just so I understand you.  You disagree with his assessment?
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 03, 2012, 04:15:50 PM
Scott,

I just talked to my local earth dealer and he says it does take longer to heat the 1/2 firebox but once its heated it radiates more heat and will take longer to cool.  So as long as the fire is burning, it will stay at a high temp once it reaches that point. Just so I understand you

Yes.  You disagree with his assessment?

Yes, he does not understand what's going on.  Just because someone is a dealer don't mean much to me, most know little about them.  I have a vast interest in these units and study and work with them daily. 

The btu's have to be absorbed fast!  Or they go out, if I were to put a torch on a piece of metal 2" thick and told you to touch the other side, you'd be able to leave your hand there one heckuva lot longer than if it was 1/4" thick..  Just an example!!!  Now, some might say but the steel would stay hot longer if it's thicker, that never makes up for it and keep in mind there is water laying directly on it pulling whatever heat is produced off..

All heat exchangers are made thin for maximum heat transfer, stoves work no differently.  If you could make it last you'd want your firebox to be thin as possible!  If it would last

1/4" is plenty thick for mild steel
A lot of stainless uses 7-10 gauge

Hardy goes as far as 16guage, very very thin..   
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: candyman on February 03, 2012, 04:36:28 PM
so with all that being said anyone wanting to know anything about furnaces, you need not do any research at all, just ask scott
he knows all there is to know about o.w.b.`s  & has all the answers.

thank you,
candyman
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: martyinmi on February 03, 2012, 05:20:19 PM
candyman,
   You and Scott are on the same page. His brain and mine work the same way, in that what we say sometimes sounds so logical and so right in our minds, but the way others perceive it, well, that is an entirely different story. I understood Scott fully when he said cheap and seemingly reliable. He meant they are inexpensive and built to last for a long while. But I can also see how you may have been slightly offended. I will speak for Scott and tell you that that was not his intention.

chadley,
   Scott is right about the efficiencies. The dealer you spoke to is mistaken.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 03, 2012, 05:39:33 PM
Yea I was totally baffled to brag on a dealers product and him take offense to it.. 

Candyman, a little real world experience goes a long way, I deal with this stuff daily, so as to a question a new dealer might have, likely a more experienced dealer had that same thought years ago and found the answers to it..  Don't take things the wrong way, were here to learn and share experiences to make things easier and answer some questions

Drag that stove out of the barn and start learning, you'll be glad you did

As to how you thought I bad mouthed earth in any way possible is beyonnd me! 
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: chadley on February 04, 2012, 07:28:23 PM
okay scott,

you seem very knowledgeable on the OWB subject.  You are obviously opposed to 1/2 in fireboxes but are going to sell them anyways (with Earth next year).  Is the cost and the Ranco what is steering you to sell these units? 

I had my mind made up to get a Hawken He 2100 and had my local dealer out today for an estimate.  I have checked him out (without him knowing-not his references) and everyone speaks highly of him and the Hawken stoves.

After reading a lot on here; I have come to the conclusion that next to the stove, the dealer is the most important thing to consider in buying an OWB.  I like him very well.

I recently found there is an Earth dealer close by, so I started researching them.  The Earth dealer also has a good reputation but his logic on the 1/2 firebox is in complete contrast to yours which makes me wonder about his knowledge and credibility; hence question buying an Earth.

What are your thoughts (or anyone else's) on my two choices.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 04, 2012, 07:47:02 PM
Chadley,

Only reason I'll be selling them is they seem to be good quality and use good parts.  I will first explain tho to my customers they are buying a less efficient stove.  It's like when you go to a store..  You can buy the cheap jeans or the expensive, stores carry both to appeal to more people.  The price is what will sell the earth but I don't feel it will hurt my high end sales a bit because they seem to be 2 different markets of people.

Your earth dealer is either lying to you and knowing it, or, he's just not real knowledgeable on how they work.  Many dealers know little and simply spout what the company tells them to.

Soooo I donno, I guess most importantly is your budget, and doing what feels right... 
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: powerstroke on February 08, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
Question: Any one ever fry fish in a "thick" cast iron skillet or pan?  Takes some time to GET it heated up, but once it is what do you do?  You turn down the "fuel" to the fire.  Why?  Because it is a heat sink that "TRANSFERS" heat at a much steadier rate!  Try cooking frozen fish in a thin ass pan and when you throw it in it nearly won't fry until it comes back up to temp.  I agree that it would use more fuel from a dead start, but come on.  Steady heat is exactly what is trying to be accomplished in an owb.  I am no scientist but who can honestly argue with that?
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: powerstroke on February 08, 2012, 03:34:44 PM
http://bardworld.com/ (http://bardworld.com/)      <----- Read this WHOLE page from top to bottom!  Very informative!
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 08, 2012, 04:42:20 PM
Question: Any one ever fry fish in a "thick" cast iron skillet or pan?  Takes some time to GET it heated up, but once it is what do you do?  You turn down the "fuel" to the fire.  Why?  Because it is a heat sink that "TRANSFERS" heat at a much steadier rate!  Try cooking frozen fish in a thin ass pan and when you throw it in it nearly won't fry until it comes back up to temp.  I agree that it would use more fuel from a dead start, but come on.  Steady heat is exactly what is trying to be accomplished in an owb.  I am no scientist but who can honestly argue with that?

If you beleive that is a how a stove operates, there is not much I can say....  :o

I guess I should just design a stove and use a 2" thick firebox and put all others including the gassers to shame!

Your assumption of steady heat is sooooo far different from what were doing with these stoves I don't even know where to start to begin to argue it, it's lab tested that your wrong.  Soo I'm guessing it won't do me any good to argue it anyway.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: willieG on February 08, 2012, 05:02:13 PM
water...heat..and natural elements all equal corosion on mild steel...lets say for fun we use 1/8 thick steel to an average of 5 years (remember this is in fun now)  so we have a 1/8 thick firebox that will last an average of 5 years but give good heat transfer
but in 5 years you need a new stove


we now take that 4/8 thick fire box and we give up a whole bunch of btus so we have to cut more wood but we increase the life of the stove by 15 years to a life of 20 years

i guess one would have to weigh the life of his investment in 1 stove  and cutting more wood or 4 stoves and cutting less wood for the same 20 years?
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 08, 2012, 05:16:07 PM
Hey Willie.  Did you know that with empyre and heatmaster the corrosion warranty comes from certified labs?  Not even through heatmaster, heatmaster is 10 guage, rather thin and certified has the confidence to warranty them 100% through 5 years and it never runs out.  Drops off considerably but at 15 years.  It's still 20%
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: willieG on February 08, 2012, 05:38:00 PM
im glad they do and i was jsut pointing out that with thickness you give up transfer but all in all you get longivity. we all know by now warranties are more to protect the builder than the buyer

don't give me a thick warranty paper..give me the thicker firebox...lol

really i think a 1/4 inch firebox would be a good choice

a 100 percent through five years leads me to believe they  figure anytime after that is trouble. they do know they will have a few warranty issues but accept that but as y ousay it drops off rather quickly, perhaps if they used thicker they could  have that drop off rate a lot lower?

the warranty is written to protect the builder, don't forget that they predict the amount of trouble they expect and write a warranty to spend only that amount. kind of like (ficticious numbers here)  ok we will sell 1000 stoves in 5 years and turn a profit of xxxx and in that five years wewill replace 2 furnaces for a loss of .1% of our profit of that 5 years, in the next year we can predict  another 5 furnaces to fail so we will lower the % of warranty to still only pay out .1 percent of our profits and so it goes untill the warranty expires and they allready know (pretty close) what their cost will be

warranties in the outdoor wood business suck after that first 5 years

maybe you think your  company will stand behind their warranty (and maybe they do)...but i have my doubts from reading the stories here about many (again maybe not your company) OWB brands
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: powerstroke on February 08, 2012, 06:05:51 PM
Scott, did you read "why firebox thickness is important" on that link?  You have to know what I am talking about when I brought up the cast iron skillet scenario.  I am not necessarily saying it is more efficient either like you are implying.  YOU are the one always saying that.  Hell why don't companies make the floors of owb's of thick steel for the durability of bangin wood around on em but then make the firebox of 25 gauge steel?  Being like paper oughta be insanely efficient eh?  People want a thicker firebox because it gets abused, from creosote to massive pieces of wood, to insanely hot roaring fires.  Why was firebrick even invented for furnaces?  Ya need to quit slammin these companies on the firebox thickness deal.  And quit fryin your fish in those thin metal pans........you're wastin fuel.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: willieG on February 08, 2012, 06:19:20 PM
Hey Willie.  Did you know that with empyre and heatmaster the corrosion warranty comes from certified labs?  Not even through heatmaster, heatmaster is 10 guage, rather thin and certified has the confidence to warranty them 100% through 5 years and it never runs out.  Drops off considerably but at 15 years.  It's still 20%

lets fo to that 15 years and the 20 percent..ok in 15 years my firbox is gone they tell me yep we will waranty that box and you can send your stove here and we will put it in or we can seend you a new one and you can have it installed at yoru cost.. the new firebox lists at (ficticious here again) 2000 bucks so we will give you 20 percent off that will mean i pay 1600 and they likley pay to build that about 30 percent less so they are allready making 10 percent profit on warranty (at least) so now i have to figure if it is cheaper for me to send it to their factory for them to install it (and im not sure that would be under warranty or not) or will it be cheaper for me to hire it local?  they may even offer to come pick it up and make money on the trucking too! and likley if you read the fine print after the first five years they likley only warranty workmanship leaks not normal rust through?
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 08, 2012, 08:09:42 PM
all warranties are "subject to change" lol

But from talking with folks like certified labs they are very confident that there treatment can all but stop corrosion....  I agree on your 1/4" specs.  The firebox does take abuse from the average user..  I tend to forget not all folks are like me, I have never "threw" a piece of wood or coal into my firebox.  I lay it in there piece by piece and am so particular that I wiggle each piece around with a hoe until it's just right, meanwhile my neighbor on the other hand opens the door and starts slinging!  He even broke his hand because he hit the firebox flange he was throwing it so hard lol
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: martyinmi on February 08, 2012, 08:45:57 PM
http://bardworld.com/ (http://bardworld.com/)      <----- Read this WHOLE page from top to bottom!  Very informative!
"Informative Factual Review of all Wood Burning Boilers-a Canadian Website"........Directly from Shavers website.

Your shaver will probably last a good long while. You will, however, go through a LOT more fuel than an OWB whose burn chamber is half the thickness. Your heat exchanger in your fossil fuel furnace is made of a very thin gauge metal for proper efficient thermal transfer. The thinking that a thicker firebox is better for proper heat transfer goes against some of the basic rules of thermodynamics.

Your choice of trucks, however, leaves no room for improvement. Ford Rocks!
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: willieG on February 08, 2012, 08:52:45 PM
im not so sure it so imformitive i think i read that if youhave no ash pan you will have to let your fire go out to clean your stove...i have no ash pan and i use one match per heating season..you rake the hot coals to the back and only clean out the fine ash..rake the coals out even again and reload with wood.  a forum such as this is imformative..there are a whole bunch of us that have gone through the learning curve with all kinds of stoves some better than others but each of us love ours and think it is the best! ::)

you may get some conflicting replies here but you get what everyone believes (i think) to be the truth and a person can make a decision based on many answers not just one,
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 08, 2012, 10:03:52 PM
yea forums are great and very informative, much different than reading something a company puts out or has someone to put out. 

Anytime heat transfer is necessary the material used is thin....   Look at the fins on a radiator??  Wonder why there not like 1/4" thick? 
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: dclark on February 09, 2012, 02:04:47 AM
One thing I found with an Earth is you got a massive amount of water to heat which takes more fuel and the 2 things cooling this water is heating your house and the weather outside. With this Rancher I have I looked at the insulation and I have 2 inches between the firebox and the cold weather and it's not even a full sheet, it's about 13 inch wide panels stuffed between the framework on the stove so that's where some of the heat goes, As far as the half inch thick firebox, I never really hit the side, I hit the chimney that sticks halfway down into the firebox, kind of limits the size of logs I through in there but yeah you can put alot of  wood in there as long as there's no fire rolling out the front, in my case I have no problem with since with the '09 model I have the fire goes out every time I shut the door and so when I feel the need to put wood in there there's no fire to hit me in the face, I rebuild my fire quite a bit. This has something to do with the air flow being the vent blower is built in behind the stove,blowing air into the ashpit,not into the firebox, but I'm sure they've corrected that problem.
 As far as effencieny goes, I talked to a guy that has one of  these and he says he goes through 6 cords a year so thats one thing you need to do no matter which stove you buy , see how much wood you'll go through and they'll all give you the burn time, temperature settings speach, how warm you keep your housewhat type of wood but we have a gas heater, gas stove, gas water heater and gas dryer and we used about a tank a year, around 800 bucks so if you cut your own wood thats great but if you run outta places to cut and have to travel , then buy, that could run into some bucks. I've got my own wood but when  I rebuild a fire as often as I do I waste alot of wood , after all 230 gallons of water on the othet side of a half inch steel wall takes awhile to heat on a cold night with very little insulation.
 As far as dealers go, the only one around here that I know of doesn't carry replacement parts , when the pump went out the company shipped it supposedly next day but it took a week to get here ground delivery and when the electronic temperature control quit working that took a week , but that was delivered a couple hours north of me instead, I couldn't go pick it up so it had to be reshipped.
 So all these things should be considered, parts fail, can you get a replacement on a cold winter night , even though the firebox will last a lifetime, will you be able to use it. Effeniency covers alot of ground, I just got done rebuilding my fire again,it's 3 am and I should be asleep. Don't talk to salesmen, talk to owners
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: willieG on February 09, 2012, 04:17:34 AM
yea forums are great and very informative, much different than reading something a company puts out or has someone to put out. 

Anytime heat transfer is necessary the material used is thin....   Look at the fins on a radiator??  Wonder why there not like 1/4" thick?

i totally agreew ith you scott that thin is better for heat transfer but i'm not throwing 100 pound odd shaped chunks of wood from 2  feet away at my radiators like i am my wood stove either.

I would feel better with a little more meat in the fire box. give up some heat transfer for what i hope would be longer life

i know you likely do not hear to many stories of the box being punctured but when building my own i opted for  the insurance of a littlel thicker
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 09, 2012, 07:59:02 AM
Willie.  1/4" is fine, i know that you do undrestand heat transfer and my comments were based on trying to get folks to think about something as simple as a radiator.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: chadley on February 09, 2012, 09:19:16 AM
so in your opinions; how much difference do you think there is in wood consumption between a 1/4 and 1/2 in fireboxes?  Obviously temp, location, wood and all of those factors come into play.  But all things considered equal, what do you think the difference is?  1 cord a year 10 cords a year?

I'm considering the Earth's but I wish my Hawken dealer was the Earth dealer instead.  I'm not sure I like this Earth dealer nearby.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: woodfuel on February 09, 2012, 10:12:13 AM
I think people are trying to say 25% more? So say you use 4 cords, 25% is 1 more cord.     8 cords, 25% is 2 more.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Scott7m on February 09, 2012, 11:21:12 AM
so in your opinions; how much difference do you think there is in wood consumption between a 1/4 and 1/2 in fireboxes?  Obviously temp, location, wood and all of those factors come into play.  But all things considered equal, what do you think the difference is?  1 cord a year 10 cords a year?

I'm considering the Earth's but I wish my Hawken dealer was the Earth dealer instead.  I'm not sure I like this Earth dealer nearby.

No matter the temperature, no matter the distance. None of that is going into the calculation, when you increase the firebox thickness 1/4" you lose 25% in efficiency.. 

If your throwing In 20 pieces of wood a day, the 1/4" box would heat your house The same on 15 pieces, so if you figure up for example 5 pieces of wood per day, and heating 200 days, that's 1000 pieces more wood up the stack.  As far as how many cord and such, have no idea, it just depends on how much your burning
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Outdoor Wood Furnace Info on February 12, 2012, 04:23:00 PM
This thread was a great read.  Thanks for being gentlemen (assuming you are men - sorry if ladies), and thanks for sharing your collective wealth of knowledge.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: woodsmaster on March 08, 2012, 08:17:00 PM
 I would agree with scott that the thicker steel will result in lower efficiency. The key to longevity
is largly threw monitering and treating your water.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: ffbare on February 18, 2014, 08:20:43 PM
This is my favorite thread so far on this page.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Drivebymashing on February 19, 2014, 02:07:00 PM
The earth 305 bear cub is 3/8 thickness that's what I have I love it!!
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: ffbare on February 19, 2014, 04:45:32 PM
Thanks for that driveby.  Im going to do some more homework on plate exchangers  the taco 007 pump seems kinda big but I'm going to read more about that too, I'm still learning.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Steinacher Sales on July 13, 2014, 02:47:23 PM
To All,

I've been listening to Dealers bash the Shaver time and time again. They must of been a pretty good product for Earth, Acme, and Natures Comfort to copy them to start their furnaces businesses. I sure they have changed some by now, but some units still look similar.

I have also heard that the dealer makes all the difference. I totally agree 100%. A good Dealer can get things done for his customer. I've always said a Dealer who truly cares is rare. I stand behind the Shaver Products and do right by my customers!

Greg Steinacher
618-401-0726
My Web: www.midwestoutdoorfurnace.com (http://www.midwestoutdoorfurnace.com)
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: slimjim on July 13, 2014, 05:09:46 PM
That certainly has been witnessed right here on this forum Greg, your corporate office should be proud of the way YOU handle things.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: Steinacher Sales on July 13, 2014, 09:27:58 PM
Thanks Slim! I try!
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: woodbutcher on August 13, 2014, 09:30:21 AM
15 year old CB and still going but don't know how long. Has 1/4" steel firebox with a 3/8 bottom no grate.
It's starting to look bad being years of burning. Looking at something with a little more meat, like the 1/2" fire box. Once the metal is hot it stays hot. I'll try to give you and example, I'm a welder and when you heat a piece of 1/4' steel and a 1/2" piece, the thicker piece will take a lot longer to cool down. Same will be the case in the firebox. Plus I know after a lot of years of burning the firebox starts to break down.
On my CB the 3/4" floor shows no signs of any wear, but the walls and top of the firebox don't look so good. Cleaning the ashes out about once a month isn't bad but a pain in the butt, you have hot coals, and ash coming out the door and you get a face full of ash and still get some hot coals with the ash. That's why I'm looking a a owb with an ash pan.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on August 16, 2014, 08:50:27 AM
Woodbutcher, I believe you are missing one piece of the puzzle on the heat transfer. You aren't taking into account the cooling agent(water in the water jacket) actively cooling or exchanging the heat from the metal, whichever way you want to look at it. When you heat a 1/4 piece of metal an a 1/2 piece of metal and then you pour water on it what is the difference in time that it takes for both to cool down? Not much difference. Scott7m has said before that he has been a part of some testing on 1/4 and 1/2 firebox thickness testing. He said that they found for every 1/8 inch thicker that you go you lose about 15% efficiency I believe.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: woodbutcher on August 18, 2014, 09:28:13 AM
Scott seems to know a lot about OWB's but not a lot about steel. Your boiler don't cool down to outdoor temp's. There should be less than 10 degrees temp. drop in the water before the boiler kicks in. Just try to but your hand in the boiler when it is not calling for heat, well the steel is at that temp. of the coals and don't take a lot of fuel to bring it up to temp. and also the same is true as the heat is taken out of the water, it takes a long time to bring the firebox down. If thinner is better than buy a owb that is 1/8" thick and see how long the firebox lasts. A firebox with 1/2" steel will last a lot longer than one made of 1/4" steel, also if thinner is better than the owb makers would be making them as thin as aluminum foil.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: slimjim on August 18, 2014, 02:45:08 PM
Woodbutcher, I will go on record agreeing with Honda as well as Scott on this one, a better way tostore heat is in refractory cement
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on August 18, 2014, 08:04:07 PM
Woodbutcher, the fireboxes need to be tough enough to handle the large chunks of wood that is thrown into them, the heating and cooling of the metal as well as the inevitable corrosion which will take place and slowly eat away at the steel. So that being said the boiler will need to be a bit thicker, say 1/4 inch but not to thick since the steel has only so much time to absorb the hot gasses before they escape from the boiler being pulled away through the flue. The heat does not sit in the boiler until it is absorbed into the steel, it is actively being pulled from the boiler by the pull of the flue. I believe you need to think of all of this in a different view. Your looking at it as using the fire jacket to actually be a heat sink when in reality you need the water in the jacket to be the heat sink. You need to transfer that heat energy as easily and quickly as possible(because if you don't the heat will be pulled out of the flue before it is exchanged). A thinner steel is going to transfer that heat energy faster than a steel that is thicker.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: mlappin on August 18, 2014, 09:27:44 PM
Used 5/16 plate in my first one, seemed like a nice compromise between 1/4" and 3/8" plate. If it's of a poor design anything will rot out no matter the thickness.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: woodbutcher on August 21, 2014, 10:09:33 AM
hondaracer2oo4,
I think you missed the point totally, your boiler don't cool down, it is always hot in the firebox, and the steel in the firebox is at that temp. When you pull heat out of the water the less water means the whole system will cool down faster if you have a thin firebox and the boiler will have to be started up with the draft. The more water in the boiler the longer it takes to draw down the temp. I've had my boiler for 15 years and it has 400 gals. of water in it. I only need to fill it once a day. I'm heating over 5,000 sq.ft. with the shop which never gets below 55 degrees at night where I set it. The house is 75 degrees night and day. The hot coals in the firebox keep the steel hot all the time. I know of owb owners that have thin steel and a small amount of water and they are running all the time, I know this because I can tell when a boiler is running by looking at the smoke coming out or it is shut down, being up to the temp. 
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on August 22, 2014, 05:51:08 AM
The steel is not the temperature of the firebox, it is close to the temperature of the water. It exchanges the heat from the firebox and heats the water. If it was the temperature of the firebox it could be upwards of 1000 degrees when you had a hot fire going, or in the case of a gasser when the heat is leaving the heat exchangers 2000 degrees. But you know that steel would be melting if that was the case. The steel does not 'store' the heat energy. It is merely there to exchange the heat.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: slimjim on August 22, 2014, 06:54:34 AM
  Woodbutcher, you are not making much sense!
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: woodbutcher on August 22, 2014, 09:26:24 AM
Slimjim, Sorry I don't make any sense to you or anybody out there. Like I said, I've had my boiler for 15 years. Has anyone even had one close to that many years. If the fire chamber is the temp. of the hot coals than the steel has to be close to that temp. If you water reads 175 degrees the fire box has to be 175. The hot coals can keep the water at that temp. For and example run your boiler in the late spring when the outside temp. is 50 degrees. See how often the boiler will start up. The hot coals keep the firebox hot and the water as well. I keep my boiler running a lot longer than I should just to heat the DHW. The boiler may only kick in once all day. Everybody has there opinion on boilers and that is a good thing, without owning an owb there could be no discussions. My friend has the same boiler as I do, only a newer model. I have a water to air exchanger and he has a water to water exchanger. He runs his at 195 degrees and his house is at best 70 degrees. I know there are a lot of factors to consider but all in all it is up to the buyer of an owb that has to make his own decision I do like the design of the P&M but can't find anyone around me that has one. Still looking at the Earth for a replacement.     
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: slimjim on August 22, 2014, 10:22:25 AM
15 years is great, I have a friend and neighbor with almost 30 on his Hardy, the thing to remember is that technology has changed a great deal in the past 10 years, I think for the better, I have a 12 year old Wood Doctor that has treated me wonderfully but that does not make it the most efficient stove on the market for sure. Personally I like the Wood Chip boiler out of everything that I have run.
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on August 22, 2014, 09:37:14 PM
My Hardy is 23 years old. Let me put this to you one last time and see if you can understand what I am trying to say. Have you ever tried to solder a pipe that still has water in it? What happens?
Title: Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
Post by: mlappin on August 24, 2014, 07:30:06 PM
Slimjim, Sorry I don't make any sense to you or anybody out there. Like I said, I've had my boiler for 15 years. Has anyone even had one close to that many years.

Yep, first one I built will be going on 15 years, used 5/16, still going strong.

The firebox is no the temp of the fire, if it was there never be any creosote buildup on the steel. Creosote forms on a cool surface. All your gassers use a secondary chamber of some sort as steel surrounded by water stays too cool and quenches the flame so gasification can't happen reliably.

Even the stainless models wouldn't last long if the steel was at fire temp instead of closer to water temp.