Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: mingom on January 22, 2012, 04:21:08 PM

Title: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 22, 2012, 04:21:08 PM
Hey guys,
I got the work done on the boiler, added a 40 plate hx, and redid the plumbing.  I'm still using some propane, but its much better.  My boiler temps are running down pretty low so I think that the house is getting much better heat transfer (from 180 ive seen down to 145) Im lookign for some advice on what else to look for to stop using gas, and to keep the boiler temps up to 170 at least.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: pintopaul on January 22, 2012, 04:40:57 PM
what wood master stove did you get?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 22, 2012, 05:31:38 PM
I have a woodmaster 4400
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: RSI on January 22, 2012, 10:07:26 PM
The OWB temperature it dropping to 145 across the plate but the temperature at the OWB is holding 180?
If that is what is happening you need a bigger pump.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 23, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
No sorry, at the OWB temp sensor its dropping to 145 (at times)
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 23, 2012, 12:44:40 PM
for those of you with OWB's particularly the 4400, how do you keep your temps up? I have my OWB set at 180 degrees with a 5 degree differential for kick on temp. Since the install of the new HX, i see temps that dip down to 150ish pretty consistently, which to me signifies a significant heat draw from the house (before i would hit 170- sometimes) It seems to be burning pretty decently, its been eating up some wood this past week with temps below zero most nights. I'd like to be able to keep the temps up to a more consistent level, and not have the blower run pretty much 24/7.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: RSI on January 23, 2012, 12:49:28 PM
Does the temperature of the OWB recover once it gets burning or does it stay down till the heat load from the house drops?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 24, 2012, 07:39:21 AM
It doesn't seem to recover even without the lack of load from the house.  I'm beginning to think I have an airflow issue in the boiler,  I believe I should be getting a.) more burn time out of my wood, b.) more ashes than bigger coal-y pieces, c.) better temps from the ETC ( ie set at 180 with 175 kick on... maybe dropping to 170, not down to 150-145).   I'm just not seeing what other people say their stoves are capable of in terms of output, burn times, and how their stove ashes up.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: newmanab on January 24, 2012, 10:12:57 AM
What's your return line temp to owb?? What type of pex did you use underground?  Sounds like you could be losing some heat there if your boiler won't come up to temp with no demand.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 24, 2012, 01:18:48 PM
I believe I am losing some heat in the ground, but not that much... I wasn't having this issue as noticeably before i had the hx installed.  I had my boiler guy check the pex, he said it wasn't the best, but it didn't look like any water penetration, as he said i would see it in my basement where the pex comes in.  I have a good 3-4 ft depth where it penetrates the wall.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: RSI on January 24, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
How long does it take till it gets back up to 180?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 25, 2012, 04:12:01 AM
I haven't had the time to go out and sit and watch, but i'd estimate easily over 45 minutes, depending on how low it drops.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 25, 2012, 07:40:57 AM
Just wanted to post some thoughts I got from another website:

I haven't really tried seeing if leaving the door open brings the temp up fast, usually its way down by the time I see it and I'd have to leave the door open for a long time, which cause the boiler to boil out some water and some good sized flames and smoke to pour out the door. I believe the fan/damper is operating fairly well, if I shut the door almost all the way, I can watch the fan stoke the fire really well. Is burning a crosote log okay for the OWB's? I thought I had heard they're not great on the system. I'm going to look into getting a brush system so I can sweep it this weekend, do I have to completely shut down the fire to do this, or can it be swept while operating?


Regarding the water side of the system. I don't have a definitive answer regarding whether or not the OWB temp stablizes when the home isn't drawing a load. Temps have been on the warmer side (40 ish degrees) the past few days but the boiler still falls to 150-155 degree levels, I can't believe my house is calling for the same load as it was when temps were -7 last week. I'm not trying to say that there isn't an issue with the home side, but I just don't know what would have changed that drastically. The guy I had perform the service on my system a few weeks ago said my system is very similar to ones he's installed, and a very common setup. I have a hard time believing that the past two owners were completely fooled by the system and lied outright to me about how it performed.


Quote Originally Posted by ...... View Post
I finally went back through all the prior posts to understand the details. Not sure I understand it all correctly. Below are a few thoughts based on what I think has been described.

First, I am commenting only on the air flow here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Damper opens at 175 boiler water temp, then boiler water temp proceeds to drop to the 150 range and take a long time to increase to the 180 closure set point. If you leave the boiler door open a crack then it heats fine, fire cranks up and boiler water temp doesn't fall into the 150's? You can crack boiler door, get fire cranking, maintain good boiler water temp, then close the boiler door and have the boiler water temp fall significantly despite the damper open/fan running? If these scenarios are correct, then you have an air intake issue. The damper open and fan running should not allow the boiler water temp to drop off like that if you have good coals and good wood in the fire box. When the damper is open and fan is running you should have high output from your chimney. Check it. Open the boiler door a crack and check to see if there is a difference in chimney output. This will isolate airflow to intake only and let you know if that is an issue. If opening the door does not make much difference in chimney output, then you need to determine if the chimney out put is adequate/proper. How much smoke is coming out the door versus exiting via the chimney? Its possible you have something in the chimney. Burn a creosote log and clean it out. Use a chimney cleaning brush and make sure there isn't blockage.

Second, I am commenting only on the home system heat draw. If I understand your diagram and descriptions, your owb-side water flow has been checked and is now fine. The owb-side water is running in a continuous loop and passes its heat to the in-home system loop through heat exchanger. Your in-home loop is not running continuously and while its idle the owb water temps are fine. Its only when the in-home is activated and running that the owb water temps drop significantly. Is this all correct? If so, the in-home system water temp running through the heat exchanger is cooling the owb water temp, so the in-home system is dominating the owb system. If true, it seems you have a design flaw in the system.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 26, 2012, 10:11:47 AM
Sorry to be a bother, but any ideas anyone?  I hate being stumped like this
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: RSI on January 26, 2012, 10:20:40 AM
Not being there and actually looking at it, it is hard to say.
It sounds like when the zone pumps kick on they dump a lot of cold water into the boiler and pull the temperature way down. Then as it is trying to re-heat it has the heat load on the house making it take a lot longer to recover the temperature.

If this is what is happening, I think the best fix would be to put a storage tank in the basement(if you have room)
If you run the return water into it, it will keep the boiler from getting hit all of the sudden with a lot of cold water.

A 275 gallon fuel oil tank works pretty well stood on end as a storage tank.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: wiseass13 on January 26, 2012, 10:36:44 AM
Friend off mine had same issue with his owb. Ended up being the big rounds he was burning. He said he thought he had air issue also cause fire would roar only when door was open. He switched up his wood and he said it recovers fine now. Dont know if this will help but good luck
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 26, 2012, 03:28:03 PM
Sorry this may sound stupid, but I'm thinking this could be a major part of the issue.  I decided to try and clean out my boiler as much as I could, I shoveled out two garbage cans full of ash and coals.  In doing so, I found that the edges/outer part of the boiler chamber were coated completely with about 1 to 1-1/2 inch of creosote/nasty buildup.  I'm assuming this is a major restriction on heat transfer.  My plan is to try and burn down my fire as much as I can, shovel out all the ashes and coals, scrape what is possible while its still warm.  Then I'll build a good fire back up and keep the ash level down way before the door (as of today it was 2-3 inches above the sill height)

Any insight?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mcarter on January 27, 2012, 08:45:11 AM
The creosote can have an insulating effect and potentially have some effect on thermal transfer.

After cleaning it out, I would try running a higher setpoint for you water temp, try 180 if you haven't already.  Are you burning some green wood perhaps?

I hope you get her tuned up!

Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mcarter on January 27, 2012, 08:48:43 AM
Oh, how big were those trash cans?  I am imagining a regular size trash can and that would be a lot of ash!  I usually get about a 5 gallon bucket full per week.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: RSI on January 27, 2012, 08:57:03 AM
What kind of wood are you burning?
Are you sure there are no air leaks at the door gasket or air shut off plate? That is usually the cause of huge amounts of creosote if you are burning somewhat dry wood.

I would turn the temperature up as high as you can without boiling it to help burn off the rest of the creosote you can't scrape off. If you have no bad air leaks you should be able to go up to 200°
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 27, 2012, 10:31:06 AM
I'm burning mostly oak and some maple, a bit of ash.  All 1-1/2 to 2 years season.  I'm trying to get it all cleaned up, They were full sized trash cans!  I think its been overloaded and not cleaned since I bought the house in october, not sure how the last guy maintained it.  I've got the high setpoint as high as it will allow,( unless anyone knows how to allow it to go above 180)  Would a creosote log help at all?  I've also been told to check the FLA of the blower and make sure its not all gummed up.. its blowing air but is it at the right CFM.  Possibly I have an air leak but I dont think so, it seems like the fire is choked wayyyy down until I open the door.  I also want to make sure the chimney isn't plugged up some, it blows smoke but im not sure if its all plugged up.  Any place I can get brushes easily?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mcarter on January 27, 2012, 11:29:01 AM
Are you getting some overshoot of your high setpoint?  In other words, if you have it set at 180, have you ever noticed if the water temp continues to increase above this point?  If so, how much? 

If it is a lot, im just guessing here, by 5 to 8 degrees or more, this might indicate that you have an air leak.

I guess this could vary by type of OWB perhaps.

Any thoughts on that RSI?  Can overshoot indicate this sort of problem? 
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on January 27, 2012, 11:34:44 AM
for those of you with OWB's particularly the 4400, how do you keep your temps up? I have my OWB set at 180 degrees with a 5 degree differential for kick on temp. Since the install of the new HX, i see temps that dip down to 150ish pretty consistently, which to me signifies a significant heat draw from the house (before i would hit 170- sometimes) It seems to be burning pretty decently, its been eating up some wood this past week with temps below zero most nights. I'd like to be able to keep the temps up to a more consistent level, and not have the blower run pretty much 24/7.

Any ideas?
I have my 4400 set with a 15 degree differential fan shuts off at 180. And I can get 12 to 14 hr burn times when its cold. Is the damper on your blower opening up when the fan kicks on.My recovery time at the most is 25 min and that's when the house is calling for heat.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on January 27, 2012, 11:37:56 AM
Are you getting some overshoot of your high setpoint?  In other words, if you have it set at 180, have you ever noticed if the water temp continues to increase above this point?  If so, how much? 

If it is a lot, im just guessing here, by 5 to 8 degrees or more, this might indicate that you have an air leak.

I guess this could vary by type of OWB perhaps.

Any thoughts on that RSI?  Can overshoot indicate this sort of problem?

My 4400 will go past the set point by 8 degrees after the fan stops.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 27, 2012, 12:09:33 PM
I don't really have much overshoot, maybe a degree or two, but these days I haven't even been able to hit the high setpoint unless I run with the door open.  The damper does open.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mcarter on January 27, 2012, 12:14:15 PM
I guess that wouldnt be useful then.  Assuming yours don't have an airleak too.   :)

I see 2 to 4 degrees when I go load my OWB sometimes, but thats not often and I don't really keep track of it.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: RSI on January 27, 2012, 12:15:31 PM
Do you have air blowing out of the door if you open it with the fan on? Did you check to see if there is a restrictor plate between the bad and door?

How much it overshoots the setpoint usually depends on a lot of things. If it happens right after the fan shuts down it isn't likely caused by an air leak. If it keeps creeping up when there is not much heat load on the boiler that is usually an air leak.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on January 27, 2012, 01:57:46 PM
I don't really have much overshoot, maybe a degree or two, but these days I haven't even been able to hit the high setpoint unless I run with the door open.  The damper does open.
did you check your stack could be plugged.

When you pull out the smoke baffle twist it to the left half turn and pull in and out then do the same to the right that will help clean all of the junk out of the slide for the baffle.
could be all full of ash and creosote. I do that to mine every other day and I see a bunch of stuff blow out the stack.

 
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 27, 2012, 02:15:13 PM
I think the stack could be partially blocked. This afternoon I ran the temp up to 181 with the door open, closed the door, then went to open it a minute or two later to toss a piece of scrap in and literally the gases/smoke blew up out the door probably 4-5 feet out the door easy, good thing I was low or it would have got me.  Unfortunately, the smoke baffle is locked right up, I can only get it to move an inch or two so I think its gummed up good.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on January 27, 2012, 02:26:16 PM
I think the stack could be partially blocked. This afternoon I ran the temp up to 181 with the door open, closed the door, then went to open it a minute or two later to toss a piece of scrap in and literally the gases/smoke blew up out the door probably 4-5 feet out the door easy, good thing I was low or it would have got me.  Unfortunately, the smoke baffle is locked right up, I can only get it to move an inch or two so I think its gummed up good.

You can only move an inch or two in and out?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 27, 2012, 02:35:43 PM
Yes unfortunately.  I'm trying to figure out how to get it unstuck.  I got it to move a bit more (3-4, maybe 5 inches).. Would burning a CSR log maybe help loosen it up?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on January 27, 2012, 02:39:51 PM
Yes unfortunately.  I'm trying to figure out how to get it unstuck.  I got it to move a bit more (3-4, maybe 5 inches).. Would burning a CSR log maybe help loosen it up?

It could I never used one. Just keep working it maybe it will let lose. Can you get it to twist at all then pull it back?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 29, 2012, 06:58:42 AM
Burned a creosote log yesterday, looking for a brush setup to run through the chimney. I've let the firebox run down to very minimal amount of ashes/coals. I haven't had a chance to pull the blower apart and clean it. I might pick up an extra blower Monday from Grainger just to have, but I'm still stumped on whats causing my fire not to burn correctly. I did manage to get the smoke bypass rod free, and pulled out 4-5 full shovelfuls of crap that fell out with it. Who knew how long that rod was? Wish I had been there for the start up this season to have made sure it was clean.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on January 29, 2012, 08:20:27 AM
Burned a creosote log yesterday, looking for a brush setup to run through the chimney. I've let the firebox run down to very minimal amount of ashes/coals. I haven't had a chance to pull the blower apart and clean it. I might pick up an extra blower Monday from Grainger just to have, but I'm still stumped on whats causing my fire not to burn correctly. I did manage to get the smoke bypass rod free, and pulled out 4-5 full shovelfuls of crap that fell out with it. Who knew how long that rod was? Wish I had been there for the start up this season to have made sure it was clean.

Now that you got that to move make sure to do it couple times a week.
And make sure the plate is still on the rod.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on January 31, 2012, 03:58:26 PM
Still haven't gotten up to sweep the chimney I need to borrow a taller ladder to get up on the roof to get to the stack.  But the blower seems to work fine, if I crack the door to give it some oxygen and a place for the smoke to pour out. It seems like if I shut the door and open it the smoke had smother the fire.  Thanks again for all the help, hope to sweep tomorrow if I can get a ladder and a way to stay up on the roof haha.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mcarter on February 01, 2012, 05:25:16 PM
Ming,
I hope your stack is not as tall as Matty's!   :D
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on February 02, 2012, 05:12:11 PM
Still haven't gotten up to sweep the chimney I need to borrow a taller ladder to get up on the roof to get to the stack.  But the blower seems to work fine, if I crack the door to give it some oxygen and a place for the smoke to pour out. It seems like if I shut the door and open it the smoke had smother the fire.  Thanks again for all the help, hope to sweep tomorrow if I can get a ladder and a way to stay up on the roof haha.

Well how did the sweep go?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on February 03, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
Can't even get a brush down through it.  Plugged solid with what feels to be a 4-5 inch think round of creosote in one spot.  I need to really take some time this weekend and fight it.  When I broke through I could see a noticeable difference in draft.  It seems to have sealed back over though with just the small hole I could get before it got too dark/cold
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mcarter on February 03, 2012, 12:45:55 PM
Take some pictures of that mingom!  Let us see! 
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: mingom on February 04, 2012, 10:12:09 AM
Broke up as much of it as I could, I've been trying to get a good hot hot fire going today to burn it up.  The woodmaster seems to have a square flange mated to a round pipe, seems kinda foolish.  I'm replacing the blower also since its full of junk, I got one for cheap through grainger.  Anyone have an idea of how they are wired up?  Pulling it apart it seems to have 2 yellow wires and 4 black wires (for the blower and the flap solenoid)  My new one has a white and a black ( both labeled line)
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on February 04, 2012, 01:28:36 PM
Broke up as much of it as I could, I've been trying to get a good hot hot fire going today to burn it up.  The woodmaster seems to have a square flange mated to a round pipe, seems kinda foolish.  I'm replacing the blower also since its full of junk, I got one for cheap through grainger.  Anyone have an idea of how they are wired up?  Pulling it apart it seems to have 2 yellow wires and 4 black wires (for the blower and the flap solenoid)  My new one has a white and a black ( both labeled line)

When you get that good hot fire going leave your smoke baffle rod pulled out so the flames can go straight up the stack. That should clean it out for you.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: Dirtslinger on February 07, 2012, 02:15:58 PM
Broke up as much of it as I could, I've been trying to get a good hot hot fire going today to burn it up.  The woodmaster seems to have a square flange mated to a round pipe, seems kinda foolish.  I'm replacing the blower also since its full of junk, I got one for cheap through grainger.  Anyone have an idea of how they are wired up?  Pulling it apart it seems to have 2 yellow wires and 4 black wires (for the blower and the flap solenoid)  My new one has a white and a black ( both labeled line)

Well any news on how the fire is burning now?
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: victor6deep on December 14, 2012, 07:46:33 AM
His stove probably shot up in the air like a space shuttle.LOL
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: ijon on December 15, 2012, 03:31:40 AM
I would like to know what the clown that owned the stove before him was burning in it to get it that plugged.
Title: Re: Woodmaster Update
Post by: victor6deep on December 16, 2012, 09:59:59 AM
Probably putting garbage in it. Plastic sticks to everything when it burns