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Author Topic: Earth vs. Shaver?  (Read 16757 times)

powerstroke

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 02:07:59 PM »

Question: Any one ever fry fish in a "thick" cast iron skillet or pan?  Takes some time to GET it heated up, but once it is what do you do?  You turn down the "fuel" to the fire.  Why?  Because it is a heat sink that "TRANSFERS" heat at a much steadier rate!  Try cooking frozen fish in a thin ass pan and when you throw it in it nearly won't fry until it comes back up to temp.  I agree that it would use more fuel from a dead start, but come on.  Steady heat is exactly what is trying to be accomplished in an owb.  I am no scientist but who can honestly argue with that?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:21:14 PM by powerstroke »
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powerstroke

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 03:34:44 PM »

http://bardworld.com/      <----- Read this WHOLE page from top to bottom!  Very informative!
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 04:42:20 PM »

Question: Any one ever fry fish in a "thick" cast iron skillet or pan?  Takes some time to GET it heated up, but once it is what do you do?  You turn down the "fuel" to the fire.  Why?  Because it is a heat sink that "TRANSFERS" heat at a much steadier rate!  Try cooking frozen fish in a thin ass pan and when you throw it in it nearly won't fry until it comes back up to temp.  I agree that it would use more fuel from a dead start, but come on.  Steady heat is exactly what is trying to be accomplished in an owb.  I am no scientist but who can honestly argue with that?

If you beleive that is a how a stove operates, there is not much I can say....  :o

I guess I should just design a stove and use a 2" thick firebox and put all others including the gassers to shame!

Your assumption of steady heat is sooooo far different from what were doing with these stoves I don't even know where to start to begin to argue it, it's lab tested that your wrong.  Soo I'm guessing it won't do me any good to argue it anyway.
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willieG

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 05:02:13 PM »

water...heat..and natural elements all equal corosion on mild steel...lets say for fun we use 1/8 thick steel to an average of 5 years (remember this is in fun now)  so we have a 1/8 thick firebox that will last an average of 5 years but give good heat transfer
but in 5 years you need a new stove


we now take that 4/8 thick fire box and we give up a whole bunch of btus so we have to cut more wood but we increase the life of the stove by 15 years to a life of 20 years

i guess one would have to weigh the life of his investment in 1 stove  and cutting more wood or 4 stoves and cutting less wood for the same 20 years?
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2012, 05:16:07 PM »

Hey Willie.  Did you know that with empyre and heatmaster the corrosion warranty comes from certified labs?  Not even through heatmaster, heatmaster is 10 guage, rather thin and certified has the confidence to warranty them 100% through 5 years and it never runs out.  Drops off considerably but at 15 years.  It's still 20%
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willieG

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2012, 05:38:00 PM »

im glad they do and i was jsut pointing out that with thickness you give up transfer but all in all you get longivity. we all know by now warranties are more to protect the builder than the buyer

don't give me a thick warranty paper..give me the thicker firebox...lol

really i think a 1/4 inch firebox would be a good choice

a 100 percent through five years leads me to believe they  figure anytime after that is trouble. they do know they will have a few warranty issues but accept that but as y ousay it drops off rather quickly, perhaps if they used thicker they could  have that drop off rate a lot lower?

the warranty is written to protect the builder, don't forget that they predict the amount of trouble they expect and write a warranty to spend only that amount. kind of like (ficticious numbers here)  ok we will sell 1000 stoves in 5 years and turn a profit of xxxx and in that five years wewill replace 2 furnaces for a loss of .1% of our profit of that 5 years, in the next year we can predict  another 5 furnaces to fail so we will lower the % of warranty to still only pay out .1 percent of our profits and so it goes untill the warranty expires and they allready know (pretty close) what their cost will be

warranties in the outdoor wood business suck after that first 5 years

maybe you think your  company will stand behind their warranty (and maybe they do)...but i have my doubts from reading the stories here about many (again maybe not your company) OWB brands
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powerstroke

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2012, 06:05:51 PM »

Scott, did you read "why firebox thickness is important" on that link?  You have to know what I am talking about when I brought up the cast iron skillet scenario.  I am not necessarily saying it is more efficient either like you are implying.  YOU are the one always saying that.  Hell why don't companies make the floors of owb's of thick steel for the durability of bangin wood around on em but then make the firebox of 25 gauge steel?  Being like paper oughta be insanely efficient eh?  People want a thicker firebox because it gets abused, from creosote to massive pieces of wood, to insanely hot roaring fires.  Why was firebrick even invented for furnaces?  Ya need to quit slammin these companies on the firebox thickness deal.  And quit fryin your fish in those thin metal pans........you're wastin fuel.
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willieG

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2012, 06:19:20 PM »

Hey Willie.  Did you know that with empyre and heatmaster the corrosion warranty comes from certified labs?  Not even through heatmaster, heatmaster is 10 guage, rather thin and certified has the confidence to warranty them 100% through 5 years and it never runs out.  Drops off considerably but at 15 years.  It's still 20%

lets fo to that 15 years and the 20 percent..ok in 15 years my firbox is gone they tell me yep we will waranty that box and you can send your stove here and we will put it in or we can seend you a new one and you can have it installed at yoru cost.. the new firebox lists at (ficticious here again) 2000 bucks so we will give you 20 percent off that will mean i pay 1600 and they likley pay to build that about 30 percent less so they are allready making 10 percent profit on warranty (at least) so now i have to figure if it is cheaper for me to send it to their factory for them to install it (and im not sure that would be under warranty or not) or will it be cheaper for me to hire it local?  they may even offer to come pick it up and make money on the trucking too! and likley if you read the fine print after the first five years they likley only warranty workmanship leaks not normal rust through?
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2012, 08:09:42 PM »

all warranties are "subject to change" lol

But from talking with folks like certified labs they are very confident that there treatment can all but stop corrosion....  I agree on your 1/4" specs.  The firebox does take abuse from the average user..  I tend to forget not all folks are like me, I have never "threw" a piece of wood or coal into my firebox.  I lay it in there piece by piece and am so particular that I wiggle each piece around with a hoe until it's just right, meanwhile my neighbor on the other hand opens the door and starts slinging!  He even broke his hand because he hit the firebox flange he was throwing it so hard lol
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martyinmi

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 08:45:57 PM »

http://bardworld.com/      <----- Read this WHOLE page from top to bottom!  Very informative!
"Informative Factual Review of all Wood Burning Boilers-a Canadian Website"........Directly from Shavers website.

Your shaver will probably last a good long while. You will, however, go through a LOT more fuel than an OWB whose burn chamber is half the thickness. Your heat exchanger in your fossil fuel furnace is made of a very thin gauge metal for proper efficient thermal transfer. The thinking that a thicker firebox is better for proper heat transfer goes against some of the basic rules of thermodynamics.

Your choice of trucks, however, leaves no room for improvement. Ford Rocks!
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willieG

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 08:52:45 PM »

im not so sure it so imformitive i think i read that if youhave no ash pan you will have to let your fire go out to clean your stove...i have no ash pan and i use one match per heating season..you rake the hot coals to the back and only clean out the fine ash..rake the coals out even again and reload with wood.  a forum such as this is imformative..there are a whole bunch of us that have gone through the learning curve with all kinds of stoves some better than others but each of us love ours and think it is the best! ::)

you may get some conflicting replies here but you get what everyone believes (i think) to be the truth and a person can make a decision based on many answers not just one,
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2012, 10:03:52 PM »

yea forums are great and very informative, much different than reading something a company puts out or has someone to put out. 

Anytime heat transfer is necessary the material used is thin....   Look at the fins on a radiator??  Wonder why there not like 1/4" thick? 
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dclark

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 02:04:47 AM »

One thing I found with an Earth is you got a massive amount of water to heat which takes more fuel and the 2 things cooling this water is heating your house and the weather outside. With this Rancher I have I looked at the insulation and I have 2 inches between the firebox and the cold weather and it's not even a full sheet, it's about 13 inch wide panels stuffed between the framework on the stove so that's where some of the heat goes, As far as the half inch thick firebox, I never really hit the side, I hit the chimney that sticks halfway down into the firebox, kind of limits the size of logs I through in there but yeah you can put alot of  wood in there as long as there's no fire rolling out the front, in my case I have no problem with since with the '09 model I have the fire goes out every time I shut the door and so when I feel the need to put wood in there there's no fire to hit me in the face, I rebuild my fire quite a bit. This has something to do with the air flow being the vent blower is built in behind the stove,blowing air into the ashpit,not into the firebox, but I'm sure they've corrected that problem.
 As far as effencieny goes, I talked to a guy that has one of  these and he says he goes through 6 cords a year so thats one thing you need to do no matter which stove you buy , see how much wood you'll go through and they'll all give you the burn time, temperature settings speach, how warm you keep your housewhat type of wood but we have a gas heater, gas stove, gas water heater and gas dryer and we used about a tank a year, around 800 bucks so if you cut your own wood thats great but if you run outta places to cut and have to travel , then buy, that could run into some bucks. I've got my own wood but when  I rebuild a fire as often as I do I waste alot of wood , after all 230 gallons of water on the othet side of a half inch steel wall takes awhile to heat on a cold night with very little insulation.
 As far as dealers go, the only one around here that I know of doesn't carry replacement parts , when the pump went out the company shipped it supposedly next day but it took a week to get here ground delivery and when the electronic temperature control quit working that took a week , but that was delivered a couple hours north of me instead, I couldn't go pick it up so it had to be reshipped.
 So all these things should be considered, parts fail, can you get a replacement on a cold winter night , even though the firebox will last a lifetime, will you be able to use it. Effeniency covers alot of ground, I just got done rebuilding my fire again,it's 3 am and I should be asleep. Don't talk to salesmen, talk to owners
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willieG

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 04:17:34 AM »

yea forums are great and very informative, much different than reading something a company puts out or has someone to put out. 

Anytime heat transfer is necessary the material used is thin....   Look at the fins on a radiator??  Wonder why there not like 1/4" thick?

i totally agreew ith you scott that thin is better for heat transfer but i'm not throwing 100 pound odd shaped chunks of wood from 2  feet away at my radiators like i am my wood stove either.

I would feel better with a little more meat in the fire box. give up some heat transfer for what i hope would be longer life

i know you likely do not hear to many stories of the box being punctured but when building my own i opted for  the insurance of a littlel thicker
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 07:59:02 AM »

Willie.  1/4" is fine, i know that you do undrestand heat transfer and my comments were based on trying to get folks to think about something as simple as a radiator.
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