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Author Topic: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature  (Read 1053 times)

Farmer Bob

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E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« on: October 07, 2018, 11:06:07 AM »

Iíve had this problem from the first day of installation; the FireStar temperature indicates 185F and the water temperature at the furnace outlet is 165F.  The thermal couple for the FireStar has been replaced (type K TC, supplied by CB).  The water temperature has been confirmed as 185F (on the upper right side where the FireStar TC is located) using high quality laboratory equipment (also type K TC), and the original TC checked out as being good.  Outlet temperature has been checked by several methods;  1. Draining several quarts of water from the water level tube then checking water temperature.  2.  Pipe temperature (copper ĺ inch) at furnace outlet with the pump running.

The heated water on the right side of the water jacket where the FireStar TC is located, I am guessing, is somehow being restricted from migrating to the left rear where the water outlets are located.
In an effort to try to bring my outlet temperature closer to 185F, I have installed a circulation pump that sources water from a return port and sends it to the drain port that is located below the heat exchanger tubes.  This has not resulted in an increase in water temp at the water outlets.

I have tried to check the water jacket passages visually with an inspection camera, but have had no success routing the camera to see the positions that I want.  I tried accessing at all 3 outlet ports, all 3 return ports and the top vent.

Being kind of stumped at this point, I thought that maybe my circulation pump may be causing sufficient turbulence that its suction was drawing hot top water mixed with the cooler return water.  I added pipes to all 3 water outlets then routed them to the main circulation pump.  I fired up the furnace for a test (donít need heat when it is 80 degrees outside) and there appeared to be no change in outlet temperature, 165F (a 20 degree differential from the indicated FireStar Temperature of 185F).

I really would like to get my water temperature up closer to 185F.  This E-Classic replaces an old CL 5640 that did a fine job heating the house.  I have had to add an extra heat exchanger to compensate for the reduced water temperature.

Has anyone else observed this problem?
Does anyone have any ideas to correct my problem?

BTW I run my furnace with the optional FireStar XP Monitor.  I strongly believe that the information that it provides is the only way to keep a close eye on the operation of these new gasification boilers and run them efficiently.
Thanks for listening, BIG THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT.  Bob.

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E Yoder

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2018, 02:09:03 AM »

I would think you might want to tee into the supply outlet rather than the return to pull water for the recirc pump. On a G series (what I've worked with)  that mixes the tank the best. By pulling return water it reduces the flow going into the return outlet and moves it to the drain?
Sounds like low flow to me.
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Roger2561

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2018, 03:14:34 AM »

A member named Boilerman has the same CB model as you do.  He's very knowledgeable of the E-Classic 2400 and may be able to offer an insight into your particular problem.  Good luck.  Roger
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boilerman

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2018, 08:32:38 PM »

Hello Roger and Farmer Bob! I have not checked this site in a while but happened to take a look tonight. Like Roger said, I've got a 2010 E-classic 2400 and do some furnace work on the side for my dealer buddy so have some experience with them. To confirm, you are pulling your hot water from the supplies that are under the "shelf" using a drop nipple to your pump flange and the pump arrow is pointing away from the furnace correct? Returns are plumbed into the side ports below? This is important because the supply ports pull water from the top of the tank through stand tubes where the hottest water is, while the return tubes drop the water into the bottom of the tank. I don't see any need to circulate water inside the tank with an extra pump. The water will  thermocirculate to the top when it gets hot on it's own which is where the water temp sensor and pick ups are also. I'm not understanding, have you verified that the supply water in the top of the tank is indeed 185? What are you checking furnace water and water inside building temps with? Do you have good water flow? Did you purge your supply/return water lines with your domestic water pressure to be certain you've gotten all the air out which could restrict flow? What product did you use in the ground for water delivery lines?  Worst case scenerio the Firestar has a +10/-10 degree adjustment in its menu if the Firestar is measuring a 20 degree difference at the furnace so you could get 10 degrees back there. You could also raise your setpoint up 5 -7 degrees or so to get hotter water in the house as well for heating purposes.
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Farmer Bob

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 08:32:10 AM »

I appreciate everyone's interest.  I have pictures of my old plumbing setup and new, just don't know how to post them.  I am familiar with the concept of boiler operation because I had been running a CB 5640  since 2002.  My circulation pump does draw from the top, flows to the house, returns to the bottom.  I have many years test lab experience and have some very high quality equipment that I have been using for temperature measurement.  The initial thought was the FireStar thermal couple was miss located or maybe bad.  CB sent me a new sensor, which I installed.  Using my equipment, I checked water temperature in the Firestar TC port, (of course with heat sink compound), and confirmed a 185 temperature.  I used the same equipment to measure water temperature at the water level tube.  I would drain several quarts of water them insert my TC in the tube, allow water to flow out, and take my reading.  165.  This appears to confirm that the water jacket temperature is not uniform across the top of the tank.  I first guess was that this condition could be caused by something blocking the convection flow of heated water rising from the heat exchangers, migrating across the top of the tank, with cooler water flowing in the lower portion of the tank toward the heat exchanger side.  A simple system that works . . . or should work.  For some reason, it doesn't in my furnace, and I am trying to determine why.  My guesses have been maybe the water depth across the top is too shallow for the heated water to migrate or maybe blocked. Or maybe the lower flow path may be blocked.  There is not much else in the system that can give me what I am seeing.  If there is a restriction of some sort (top or bottom), I tried supplementing that designed flow with an additional pump to move water from the cooler, lower part of the tank (using one of the water return ports) and flowing to the heat exchanger side.  The only port available on the right side is the water drain which is located on the back, below the heat exchangers.  This is something that should not have to be done if the designed natural circulation is there and working.  Well, it didn't help.  Responding to E Yoder's comment, all I wanted to accomplish was to improve the natural circular flow in the water jacket, right to left on the top (hot water), left to right on the bottom (cool water).
 Regarding air in my house circulation, the line has been purged; but it is not really necessary.  My lines and heat exchangers are all well below boiler level, but I still regularly purge to be sure no bubbles are restricting flow.  But, flow of my heating pipes is not my problem.
I should add, that even when all circulation pumps are off, I observe a huge temperature drop from the FireStar temperature to the water level tube.  I do not recall the exact number as the test was done last heating season.  I will be doing this again when I fire up the furnace (which may be in the next few days).  Something is just not right and I haven't been able to put my hands on it. 

I have tried raising the FireStar setpoint from 185 to 195 (a suggestion from my local CB Dealer).  Wood consumption rose dramatically, I could hear water boiling above the heat exchangers, and outlet water temperature did rise from 165 to about 173.  I ran it for several days, but boiling water is not right.  I reset back to 185.

I have talked with both CB and my dealer.  Both say this can't happen.    Maybe my pump is installed backwards . . .   well, it is installed correctly. 


ANY IDEAS ARE MUCH APPRECIATED.  THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. 
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Farmer Bob

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2018, 01:10:55 PM »

I have fired up my furnace and it had approximately 24 hours to settle into its typical burn and breath cycle.  Hot water has been circulating into the house.  I guess I should mention that I use a Taco 009 pump, a high head/low volume pump (rated to flow about 10 GPM).  Previously, I had compared the FireStar displayed temperature to my equipment and found a less than 2 degree difference, so I accept the Firestar display as accurate.  I shut house water flow off and bled several quarts of tank water from the outlet port, then took a temperature measurement.  The FireStar displayed 183 degrees, tank water measured 157 degrees.  A 26 degree difference.  I shut off all circulation pumps to allow the natural designed flow of the heated tank water to circulate undisturbed.  I expected to find that the top of the water would stabilize at a relatively uniform temperature similar to the temperature displayed on the FireStar.  3 hours and 15 minutes later I drew water from the outlet port (again discarding the first several quarts); outlet temperature 153 degrees, Firestar temperature 180/181.  A 27 degree difference.

Has anyone seen this condition?     Does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to correct this condition?
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E Yoder

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2018, 02:42:25 AM »

I would think you need more flow, not less. Sounds like it's stratifying from low flow.
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Farmer Bob

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2018, 08:06:24 AM »

Great Thought!  I hadn't considered that the furnace maybe dependent on the pump to be the primary drive for water flow from the heated side of the furnace to the supply side (and not the capillary action of heated water).  I originally was running a Taco 011 pump (31 GPM) for house circulation (which was recommend by CB and Taco for my old CB 5640 boiler).  My dealer had suggested, for this furnace, to use something different (like an 009).  I currently have the 011 plumbed to flow from one of the water return ports to the drain port, but it is currently shut off (both flow and power) so it is just sitting there taking space.  It is an easy swap.  By making the change, I could also throttle water flow using my ball valves if I need to  . . .   I'll make the switch today.  THANK YOU for the input.
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the trailmaster

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 04:57:18 AM »

I have a 2400 seven years, have you been cleaning (back flushing) your exchange in your home.  Easy, without filters, this can be restricted, and reduce flow.  Just a thought!!!!
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Farmer Bob

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2018, 02:25:18 PM »

A couple of days with rain and a freezer that quit has kept me from getting back here.  Trailmaster, I agree with you.  Restrictions in my house circulation could effect water circulation in the furnace water jacket.  However, I have diverter valves allowing me to bypass either or both (air) heat exchangers as well as the (plate type) heat exchanger for hot water, (which has given me infrequent blockage issues).  Only the in-line filter is constantly in the flow path.  In this chapter I have plumbed the 011 pump so it sources water from one of the 3/4 inch hot outlets (top) and traveling only a few inches is fed to a return port (bottom); still having the 009 pump driving circulation to the house (sounds like E.Yoder's suggested set-up).  I expected to have full 185 degree water circulating in the water jacket being driven by the 011 pump with additional 009 circulation.  After running for 24 hours, FireStar reading 179 degrees, water outlet temperature 160 degrees.  I pulled the 011 pump cartridge to check its operation; it spun freely (powered and by hand), with no signs of corrosion or blockage.


I have no idea what I could try next . . .  I look forward to your thoughts.  Has anyone else checked outlet water temperature of an E-Classic 2400?
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E Yoder

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2018, 02:31:50 AM »

The only other thing I can think of is the possibility of a stand tube corroded or broke loose allowing it to suck water from down low.


Maybe some other guys have better ideas.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 02:33:21 AM by E Yoder »
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Farmer Bob

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2018, 04:25:29 PM »

As you can see in the photo, I am able to draw water directly from any of the hot water supply tubes for temperature measurement. 
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RSI

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 08:22:24 PM »

Without knowing what the inside is like it is hard to say what the problem is.
I would be curious to see what would happen if you pump out of the lower port and return to the top. And then hookup the recirc pump from the drain and into the other top port.

It if the interior flow path is not setup right then this probably won't work but if it is somewhat open inside then it should make all water in the whole water jacket the same temperature.
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Farmer Bob

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2018, 08:04:54 AM »

RSI, I appreciate your input, however I am not trying to redesign the boiler, I believe that CB has done that.  Where my question lies is "What is the normal/expected outflow water temperature of the boiler?"  I have seen the E-Classic 3250 outflow temperatures in the 175+/- range.  I have not seen outflow temperatures for other models.  Maybe 165 degrees is the designed temperature of the E-Classic 2400 boiler.  I have gone overboard in my plumbing trying to get water to the temperature that my old boiler produced . . .  because that is the temperature that the house side of the system was designed to use (the original installation was in 2002).  I am hoping that other owners of the 2400 can confirm that 165 degrees is normal (or not); or maybe there is the unlikely possibility that I have a flow restriction in the water jacket (that I need to correct).  If 165 is normal, I have already installed an additional heat exchanger in the house, and I may need to made a few other additions.  THANKS for your input.  Bob
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boilerman

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Re: E-Classic 2400 with low water temperature
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2018, 09:01:26 PM »

I have run a 2400 since 2010. I have a temp gauge tee'd in on my return line at the Eclassic with around a 90 ft Thermopex run. When nothing is drawing  heat in my house, the return temp is coming back within 1 degree of the temp my Firestar is reading. When Firestar reads at the 185 degree set point, it returns at 184 verifying the temp on the Firestar which has its probe at the same level as the draw port as being correct. Like I mentioned before the Firestar has a +10/-10 readout degree adjustment in its menu so if the Firestar is measuring a 20 degree difference at the furnace you could get 10 degrees difference back there by adjusting that menu item to -10. I run my setpoint at 190 all the time and find the firebox stays drier than at 185, so right there you could make up 15 degrees in the water going to the house. I suggest you give that a try, nothing to lose. CB makes thousands of furnaces and I'd have to believe they are all made the same way so I would doubt something is restricting flow inside the furnace. I see no purpose in trying to run an extra pump to try to make the water recirculate inside differently than how CB designed it to work, like you said there should be no need to redesign. Another thought, do you have their thermostatic valve installed? If so, maybe it is not correctly opening fully to allow full water flow to your house exchanger.
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