Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: tinfoilhat2020 on December 19, 2017, 05:21:26 AM
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Hello all,
This spring we are looking to put on a 5000 to 10000 square foot addition onto our business that we run out of our home. Part of this will be office and storage areas the other half will be an indoor dog grooming dog whelping and dog boarding facility. We plan on doing all in-floor radiant heat anywhere from 5 to 10 thousand square feet in total depending on this year's budget.
I'm interested in some of the Portage and Main biomass Enviro chip units, i have spoke to Brian and am getting more info. hopefully setting up a time to gp see one in person. I have also talkes to Heatmaster about their Biomass units and am getting pricing and specs on all.
I have also considered just going with another gasser. My G200 has been great thus far for the short time i have ran it. I think another G200 (if we go with 5k sqf) a PM EGR 250 or a Polar G3 would do well. I also think it would be kinda cool to have two of the best gassers on the market working side by side. The manufacturers/dealers reading this may not like that but you know what I'm a homeowner not a dealer or manufacturer if I'm going to spend money on another unit I might as well have some fun with it and compare some of the best gassers on the market right??? lol
My third option is going with a Portage and Main BL 3444 conventional unit. I like this option for the fact that the piles of trash wood we have from the tree.lines can get tossed right in.
im still crunching numbers...we shall see
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The size really makes a difference, once you get beyond 6-8,000 sq ft something automated becomes worth spending the money on. My brothers run a B500 chip burner at a sawmill heating 24,000 sq ft with 25' ceilings. Hand loading that much wood just isn't practical. Sometimes filling the bin and walking away is worth a few grand.
I know Heatmaster is testing some more sizes and types of biomass automated units. I think it'll be a big thing.
Researching what kind of cheap fuel you can get is a good place to start. And a trip to see all the options might be worth your time.
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also,
The Biomass units are going to cost me upwards of 30k which is a much bigger investment up front but would give me the option to add on more square footage down the road if needed. I would also have to look into a good steady supply for chips, and also have dry storage for them, which will cost more $$
The gassers will save me on wood consumption, but will required further processing and time.
The conventional unitt may burn a bit more wood but will save time on processing and we have enough deadfall, softwoods and punky rounds to last us years. This stuff would be perfect for a conventional but no good for a gasser.
The current G200 I have does my shop/garage and house. Our future buildings will be located about 500-600ft from the house, so this will be an entire separate system, upgrading to one massive unit I don't think is an option. But again, im no expert. We have a lot of planning and preparation for this and will be breaking ground hopfully this spring.
Thanks yall for listening to my blabble.....
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The size really makes a difference, once you get beyond 6-8,000 sq ft something automated becomes worth spending the money on. My brothers run a B500 chip burner at a sawmill heating 24,000 sq ft with 25' ceilings. Hand loading that much wood just isn't practical. Sometimes filling the bin and walking away is worth a few grand.
I know Heatmaster is testing some more sizes and types of biomass automated units. I think it'll be a big thing.
Researching what kind of cheap fuel you can get is a good place to start. And a trip to see all the options might be worth your time.
thanks Eldon, yes I agree on the hand loading...at a certain point it gets to be too much. I am in process of reaching out and seeing what good quality chips are going to cost per ton. But then I also have to think about dry storage, which will cost more $$. Also, most of the boarding/kennel areas will only be heated to 50-60F. The offices and storage areas maybe to 65-70. Doggies don't like it real warm, especially when using in floor heat. We hope to do the entire 10k sqft all in one shot, but again we do have a budget for 2018. We may have to start with only 5k sqft and add the additional 5k on the next year. so that is something else to take into consideration as well.
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A couple thoughts-
I've been surprised how well softwoods burn in a G, and I've burned some pretty rotten board cut-offs in my G100 over the last couple years, but I did let them dry. Burn time was definitely less.
I'm biased towards gassers as you can tell.. :)
You mentioned good quality chips- at the mill I mentioned they've been burning grindings from semi-green lumber (gum, sycamore, yellow poplar, maple, oak) along with up to 50% dust. The btu's drop as the dust percent goes up, but it burns. The igniter can light completely green chips, the only time it didn't light was with rain-soaked chips. Like really wet.
I know they're burning all kinds of other ag waste, screenings, etc. Not sure what's in your area.
But it sounds like you're more in the hand-fed range of models although I see smaller automated units coming in the future.
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yes I agree. Im not opposed to going with another gasser as well. maybe after a full season on running this G200 ill feel more comfortable knowing I can burn different species well. Ive been burning a mix of semi punky ash and wet oak slab wood and things have been doing good thus far. I did take martys suggestion and changed by off cycle timer to 60-3-30. Had the coal bed go out a few times as it has warmed up this week, since the change tho it has been back to rocking and rolling
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If i couldnt locate 1 big stove like a G400 or CB 3250 between the 2 buildings, i like the idea of having a conventional in addition to the gasifier. Heating that much square footage is going to require a steady wood supply. This gives you the option to get rid of the punky, less desirable stuff, and an a place to burn green/less than seasoned stuff if you happen to get behind on the wood cutting.
Another possibility if your looking to reduce wood cutting/splitting time might be a wood pellet boiler. You can get large storage hoppers and pellets are available at most home centers.
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I am still in the coal stoker boiler camp. Order the coal straight from Pennsylvania. Comes in 23 ton loads. You don't have to worry about the coal getting wet or anything. Load up the hopper and be good for a long time. They cost a whole lot less than a biomass burner and they are built like tanks.
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honda i still have to look into those links you sent me....iya definitely not out of the question
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Plans are changing in the Knapp household eh? I thought this addition was only 1200 sq ft like last week lol. I do agree the biomass boiler would be awesome in terms of "set it and forget it", and I know a local guy here that picked up several semi loads of old seed for pennies on the dollar to run through his biomass unit which worked out fantastic for him with no thermal storage. This was Tarm units in tandem. If you stay closer to the 5,000 sq ft area you're really open to anything you want IMO, any regular gasser or HE conventional wouldn't be a total time waster feeding it all the time. Head toward 10,000 though and it limits your options a bit. A BL 34-44 may be a little small for the application, as it's a similiar output to my C375 but holds a lot less water. Perhaps consider a C500 in that event? I'm not sure if you've ever played with a BL Dylan, but I suggest you do before pulling any triggers. I'm not familiar with the gassers as you know, so I cannot comment on the EGR or G3 in terms of experience but the G3 is far too small on paper for 10k ft, and pushing it hard at 5k with only 140k btu output. The EGR isn't much better and another G200 may struggle pretty hard at 10k (again, just on paper). I know the aforementioned biomass guy swapped out to a G400 at his new place, which I believe was around 7500 sq ft and it seemed to handle it decent but had a hard time keeping a 12 hour burn if I remember right. Log house though, not very well insulated. I know my C375 would feed 10,000 ft of well insulated radiant easily for 12 hours, but not on a wheelbarrow full lol. Overall square footage you settle on will be a large deciding factor on what's most practical for you IMO. BTW my price for the radiant goes down quite a bit over 6,000 sq ft haha
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The C500 is a whole notch bigger than a C375. Dual draft fans, really cranks it out. I heard they did one test with a full load of semi-bituminous coal (8,000 BTU/lb.,not real high) at 400,000 BTU/hr load. Got 16+ hours, imagine burning good hot 14-15,000 BTU coal.
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Plans are changing in the Knapp household eh? I thought this addition was only 1200 sq ft like last week lol. I do agree the biomass boiler would be awesome in terms of "set it and forget it", and I know a local guy here that picked up several semi loads of old seed for pennies on the dollar to run through his biomass unit which worked out fantastic for him with no thermal storage. This was Tarm units in tandem. If you stay closer to the 5,000 sq ft area you're really open to anything you want IMO, any regular gasser or HE conventional wouldn't be a total time waster feeding it all the time. Head toward 10,000 though and it limits your options a bit. A BL 34-44 may be a little small for the application, as it's a similiar output to my C375 but holds a lot less water. Perhaps consider a C500 in that event? I'm not sure if you've ever played with a BL Dylan, but I suggest you do before pulling any triggers. I'm not familiar with the gassers as you know, so I cannot comment on the EGR or G3 in terms of experience but the G3 is far too small on paper for 10k ft, and pushing it hard at 5k with only 140k btu output. The EGR isn't much better and another G200 may struggle pretty hard at 10k (again, just on paper). I know the aforementioned biomass guy swapped out to a G400 at his new place, which I believe was around 7500 sq ft and it seemed to handle it decent but had a hard time keeping a 12 hour burn if I remember right. Log house though, not very well insulated. I know my C375 would feed 10,000 ft of well insulated radiant easily for 12 hours, but not on a wheelbarrow full lol. Overall square footage you settle on will be a large deciding factor on what's most practical for you IMO. BTW my price for the radiant goes down quite a bit over 6,000 sq ft haha
No that plan is still effective....im planning on adding a 1000-1200 sqft building right up by the house and tapping into the pre existing G200 for that. That building will strictly be for whelping puppies. We like to have those buildings closer to the home since we are in and out so much.
This new addition is for the adult dogs and boarding dogs.
I got a lot of crap going on...LMAO. Our kennel has grown very much in the past few years and its time to make a serious investment
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at the end of the day ill probably go with another gasser. I agree the G3 and EGR would be pushing it for 5-10k square feet. If I go that route with another gasser ill most likely do another G200 or G400. Heatmaster has been a good company to deal with and I know from personal experience that they 1000% stand behind their product which makes me feel safe investing more $$ with them.
Wreckit, what didn't you like about the BL series?? As far as HE conventionals go I think they have the best bang out there. Followed 2nd by the C series. I really like their design and especially the dry base firebox and use of refractory. The field results from customers seems positive from what I see. I have no seen on in person though.
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at the end of the day ill probably go with another gasser. I agree the G3 and EGR would be pushing it for 5-10k square feet. If I go that route with another gasser ill most likely do another G200 or G400. Heatmaster has been a good company to deal with and I know from personal experience that they 1000% stand behind their product which makes me feel safe investing more $$ with them.
Wreckit, what didn't you like about the BL series?? As far as HE conventionals go I think they have the best bang out there. Followed 2nd by the C series. I really like their design and especially the dry base firebox and use of refractory. The field results from customers seems positive from what I see. I have no seen on in person though.
All depends on the insulation.
Personally if it was me I’d be looking real hard at a chip unit, then set it exactly half way between the house and business additions. 250-300 foot is doable with the large Logstor or the large 1 1/4” Rehau?Thermopex? Cant remember but somebody aid one of them is true 1 1/4”.
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How much is 23 ton of Pennsylvania coal ?
Heat550
I am still in the coal stoker boiler camp. Order the coal straight from Pennsylvania. Comes in 23 ton loads. You don't have to worry about the coal getting wet or anything. Load up the hopper and be good for a long time. They cost a whole lot less than a biomass burner and they are built like tanks.
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Coal varies, but 160 per ton + trucking from Lehigh anthracite.
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at the end of the day ill probably go with another gasser. I agree the G3 and EGR would be pushing it for 5-10k square feet. If I go that route with another gasser ill most likely do another G200 or G400. Heatmaster has been a good company to deal with and I know from personal experience that they 1000% stand behind their product which makes me feel safe investing more $$ with them.
Wreckit, what didn't you like about the BL series?? As far as HE conventionals go I think they have the best bang out there. Followed 2nd by the C series. I really like their design and especially the dry base firebox and use of refractory. The field results from customers seems positive from what I see. I have no seen on in person though.
All depends on the insulation.
Personally if it was me I’d be looking real hard at a chip unit, then set it exactly half way between the house and business additions. 250-300 foot is doable with the large Logstor or the large 1 1/4” Rehau?Thermopex? Cant remember but somebody aid one of them is true 1 1/4”.
1-1/4" Thermopex is true 1-1/4" ID. Ask me how I know lol
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at the end of the day ill probably go with another gasser. I agree the G3 and EGR would be pushing it for 5-10k square feet. If I go that route with another gasser ill most likely do another G200 or G400. Heatmaster has been a good company to deal with and I know from personal experience that they 1000% stand behind their product which makes me feel safe investing more $$ with them.
Wreckit, what didn't you like about the BL series?? As far as HE conventionals go I think they have the best bang out there. Followed 2nd by the C series. I really like their design and especially the dry base firebox and use of refractory. The field results from customers seems positive from what I see. I have no seen on in person though.
I'm just saying I would suggest you play with one before pulling a trigger, that's all. This merely a personal opinion of course, so please take it with a grain of salt. What I have observed with the BL is this:
PROS:
1. Double door design to keep heat within the housing
2. Refractory for some storage (personally don't like it but could be a highlight for some)
3. Replaceable firebox in place
4. Multi pass flue
CONS:
1. Mild steel
2. Refractory lining (pain in the dick as far as I'm concerned)
3. No positive shutoff on the draft system. No damper, just a weighted flapper that constantly leaks air and creeps past setpoint
4. No external controls, guy needs to open the back door to check temp or shut down the fan
These are merely observations, but honestly you couldn't give me one for free. Efficiency is great and I do love the fact that fireboxes can be replaced onsite, but given the fact that they're mild steel is the only place that'd come in handy. Their draft system is elementary at best, and the last 28-40 I installed was creeping 40 degrees past setpoint with no load on it due to that cheesy ass flapper contraption. It was warm out, but that's beside the point. If it was doing it without a load, it's going to do it all the time and waste a lot of unnecessary fuel IMO. I checked out a brand new one and 2 already in place after I figured that out, and all 3 of those had the same constantly open intake passage. Pretty cheesy for a $9k boiler IMO
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One thought,
All the Heatmaster models have bolt on tanks to simplify future onsite tank swaps. Should take a couple of hours with a tractor or something similar. I think they started that back in maybe 2010 or '11.
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yes I like that feature.....Heatmor is the same way, being able to swap out if needed is nice.
Wreckit....that does sounds cheesy for 9k boiler. ill definitely look at one if I decide to go that route.
I think its going to come down to doing a Big Biomass unit or another gasser the more I think about it. I will know more after I get some numbers at the end of January from the contractors
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Gonna need a 2 week heads up Dylan, long drive ahead of me ;D
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hahaha I will definitely buddy!