Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Hawken Energy, support only => Topic started by: chadley on January 20, 2012, 09:16:16 PM
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I've heard conflicting reviews on Hawken OWB's. Most have been good but the ones that are bad have been real bad. I want to see the number of people who are happy with Hawken vs. the number who aren't. Thanks
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Don't think you'll find enough hawken owners to do ya much good on here... In my area they are frowned upon.
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As I said in another post I am in my 5th season with my hawken. Even though I am at the upper end or a little beyond the "rated" heating area, I have easily been going from 5:00pm till noon the next day (with temps around 0 at night and teens during the day). I am very happy with it, as it has worked the way it is suppose to and has saved me a lot of money keeping my house comfortable. That said, there appears to be some guys that had trouble and spent ALOT of time online saying how bad hawken is. If you come across these posts, they all seem to be made by the same 3 or 4 people. So there you go another conflicting review. Don't you just LOVE researcing online.
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As I said in another post I am in my 5th season with my hawken. Even though I am at the upper end or a little beyond the "rated" heating area, I have easily been going from 5:00pm till noon the next day (with temps around 0 at night and teens during the day). I am very happy with it, as it has worked the way it is suppose to and has saved me a lot of money keeping my house comfortable. That said, there appears to be some guys that had trouble and spent ALOT of time online saying how bad hawken is. If you come across these posts, they all seem to be made by the same 3 or 4 people. So there you go another conflicting review. Don't you just LOVE researcing online.
i agree woodman..some folks that have bad luck maybe install wrong and have problems..some may jsut have bought from a dealer who is only in it for money and does no follow ups or had knowledge enough to help. some may truly get a "lemon" (it happens with all things) i would say mostof these stoves that are still around do work..some better than others and maybe the most exspensive ones are not always the best..some times all those special bells and whistles are just added features to try and get the customer to believe they are buying a caddilac?
there are some to stay away from i guess but i dont really know. from, reading on this site it seems that CB gets the nod for a good stove but maybe that is because we have more cb owners on here?
if you are looking for a stove don't jsut take what you find on one site, visit them all and get a more informed decision
if you are a bit of a tinkerer you can make any of them work i think...jsut make sure you get one big enough to handle yoru load
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I am impressed with Hawken and their staff. They have been very willing to help me through out and I have nothing bad to say about them. My sales rep has been very easy to deal with and everyone up there will help you out. I did a lot of research and talked with a lot of owners before buying. Doing internet research is good, but an educated buyer must realize that not everything online is helpful. Talk to real owners and you will get the best perspective into a company/product.
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I am impressed with Hawken and their staff. They have been very willing to help me through out and I have nothing bad to say about them. My sales rep has been very easy to deal with and everyone up there will help you out. I did a lot of research and talked with a lot of owners before buying. Doing internet research is good, but an educated buyer must realize that not everything online is helpful. Talk to real owners and you will get the best perspective into a company/product.
Well well well.... What happened to your 4 page long saga of how they wouldn't do anything at all to help? That your stove could never get up to temp? That your stove smoked bad even when gassifying?!? I mean you went through the ringer and had a lot of folks here scratching there heads trying to figure it out and help, then bam, there awesome?
To me this is kind of disturbing, I'm wondering who deleted all of that and why! If that's how things are going to be handled around here then it won't last long, you had real concerns and real problems then suddenly it all disappears
It went for what could be a learning experience to everyone, to, well nothing
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This is really strange. That post was made by a different person last night, now it has puzzled owners name on it? And where did his problem post go? The whole thing seemed strange from the start and his story never really made any sence. And why are there 4 negatives and only 1 positive in the poll but there are only positive comments in the thread?
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I think his problems were legit.... He had an air issue somewhere, and now it all vanishes
I think a moderator or admin would have to make those changes right???
The best thing about this site was that it was truly free speech and if you said it, it was accepted and respected and not deleted because someone got upset or offended
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I guess it was legit, I just find it hard to believe a factory tech can't tell if his furnace was gassifying or not. There is a remove button in the threads, but can a person remove the entire thread? I don't know seems like you said a mod or adminis could only do that.
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It sure don't smell right, yesterday he was frustrated and last night he becomes a "guest" and starts praising them!
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I am going to start a "test" thread in the general forum, you type something after it and I will see if I can remove the entire thread by removing my first post.
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I have deleted an entire thread but forget how
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Yep there is a remove topic button at the bottom of the thread. I don't know what to think.
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So u can delete it but that don't explain a total change of story and changing to guest
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I did receive confirmation he removed it himself and hawken was trying to take care of him...
It is still good to let everyone see the whole story I beleive, because there is always something to learn
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This is an interesting thread. I received a "Report" from "Puzzled Owner" stating that he was the creator of this post and that Hawken was very responsible in taking care of him and that he would like to have this post removed permanently. He sounded like he regretted making the post too hastily felt badly for speaking ill of Hawken.
I did NOT remove the post! I have not removed any posts and do not plan to do so unless I get reports of outright vulgarity or other blatant violations. I hope those are rare. It appears that "Puzzled Owner" figured out how to remove the post himself.
My question to you more regular members is this...if a member contacts me and wants me to remove their own post, should I honor such requests, or deny that request as I did here, and force them to explain themselves or figure it out on their own? Is there an established practice for this? By the way, I appreciate the way you all run this site. It has been a real pleasure reading your posts and seeing how you all support each other. This forum is very much a class act!
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Just for clarification;
I made the posts and am responsible enough to admit that the timeline I granted Hawken for resolution was not proper. I expected much more from them than what most would deem resonable. They have taken very good care of me and I do regret the tone and connotations that were presented in the posts.
I used this forum to help me make my decisions when I started considering an outdoor wood furnace.
I chose to remove the posts because Hawken did exactly what they promised when I bought the stove, and that was to stand behind their product and make sure I am 100% happy. I felt that the posts would not accurately represent the efforts made by the employees of Hawken and it was unfair to leave that information posted. These forums are an awesome tool and I like to do my part in keeping the information unbiased and honest. I did allow some of my frustration to come out in my explanation of the situation and am man enough to admit I was wrong and apologize.
I always try to take internet research and reviews into perspective. The happy customers are not the loud ones, it is the unhappy customers that are the most vocal. I regret the way I portrayed Hawken Energy and am completely willing to make sure everyone knows that. I am saving money and staying warm, and glad that I chose Hawken. The recent weeks have been aggravating, but Hawken stood behind their unit and took care of me.
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Could you explain the issue you had and how the issue was resolved?
Thank you
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It was a few isses all working together and against me. I had an airflow problem that was not obvious to myself. I did not know but underneath there are more channels that the fan forces air through, this feeds both the firebox and the secondary burn chamber. I also had a converter that was not as clean as it should of been. The biggest thing was a fan that was not handling the load of the stove. It would gassify but not the intense strong burn that it needs. This allowed the stove to sit in an idle pattern where it would not run in the normal ranges. Not sure if it made a difference but I had a wire end on the solenoid that I replaced due to a suspected loose connection. Once I received a replacement fan and came up with some modified cleaning tools and performed a very thorough cleaning the stove operates.
I apologize again for how this whole story unfolded. I know how it looks to an outsider, but I felt it more important to do the right thing and make sure people were not incorrectly informed based on my posts and frustrations. It is funny how your perspective changes after a situation takes place. You can take it for what you want, but I am trying to do the right thing. If you want to believe there is something weird or fishy going on, go for it, thats your right.
Information on this website and others like it should be informational and unbiased. I wrote those posts when I was extremely frustrated and it was not fair. I appreciate all the offers of help and information and that is what led to a solution to my problems. Thanks for all of the help and I am sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.
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I'm glad you got it figured out. However I feel you didn't have to remove, that's just my opinion and dont mean much but it's good for folks to read and learn and see the whole story, it would have only been wrong of you if they would have fixed it and then not came back and told everyone hey they too care of me!
We all get excited and that's part of it. But I understand your thoughts but as long as you told the whole story I feel it was fine
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I agree with Scott
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We purchased a HE2100 in 2012 and have had nothing but problems with it. The woodstove will not do what it is rated to do. They state that it will heat 10,000 sq. ft. You will be lucky to have it heat half that! We have had some other warranty issues and the company after speaking to our dealer refuses to honor there warranty.
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Wow - I cannot believe this one. I voted yes and because I work for Hawken, what else would I vote If I worked for or sold a competitors product I think I might just vote no. I would guess from these results that there are alot of people voting to make us look bad. Therefore I suggest two things - first remove or disallow any such poll, unless it can be proven credible. Second, if you are sincere and really have an issue with your furnace - call us. I have never seen a valid complaint that has not been handled. I must say, there are some customers that cannot be pleased, but this has been in any company I have worked for.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
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i dont own a hawken, i dont even own a store built OWB but i would say by the size of the fire box ,it could very well heat 10,000 square feet if certain conditions are met....1 the buildings(s) being heated are well insulated ..2 the OWB is not too far from the building (s)...3 the underground lines are of sufficient size to carry the btu required ...4 the pump is sized to match the "head loss of the gpm needed to deliver the proper amount of btu to the heat exchangers...5 the heat exchangers are sized to give up the amount of btu per hour needed ...6 the blower (if it is a hot air system) can move the amount of air required to account for the heat loss of the area to be heated.
don't jsut blame a stove becasue it isnt doing the job...there are many things to consider and if you did not have a pro install your stove (or if self installed) then perhaps some of the things i mentioned above have not been taken into consideration
lets look at just pipes for a second....an OWB with 1 inch pipes say 200 feet from the house with a taco 0011 pump (for fun we will say) can deliver 6 gpm to yoru home. at 180 degree water that will beabout 60,000 bty per hour...now the same stove...the same pump and the same distance from the house BUT with 1.25 inch pipe you will deliver about 13 gpm and at 180 degrees that will be 130,000 btu per hour so if you had the 1 inch lines and the stove would not keep up.....it is not the stove's fault
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I've heard conflicting reviews on Hawken OWB's. Most have been good but the ones that are bad have been real bad. I want to see the number of people who are happy with Hawken vs. the number who aren't. Thanks
Hey man, do you think this is a fair forum?? How can you verify if these people voting own a Hawken. This site is full of OWB dealers and therefore this poll is total BS.
I could easily change the results, by making all my dealers and employees register and vote. But I am not going to wast their time or mine.
GOOD DAY, I SAID GOOD DAY
That is interesting that you would say that because Hawken is directing people and workers to come here and vote from Facebook. We are owners of the junk you sell and DON'T stand behind. We have called and tried to have ours fixed and the company will not stand behind the warranty. Anyone who openly complains on Facebook you delete. I have also found complaints with the BBB. These complaints are all recent not from years ago when you had issue with your old product line. Our stove is defective and will NOT heat what you state it will. We have even had it set so it would only heat one building and it can’t even do that! These are well insulated buildings.
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I've heard conflicting reviews on Hawken OWB's. Most have been good but the ones that are bad have been real bad. I want to see the number of people who are happy with Hawken vs. the number who aren't. Thanks
Hey man, do you think this is a fair forum?? How can you verify if these people voting own a Hawken. This site is full of OWB dealers and therefore this poll is total BS.
I could easily change the results, by making all my dealers and employees register and vote. But I am not going to wast their time or mine.
GOOD DAY, I SAID GOOD DAY
Yes i think this is a fair forum, there are only 2-3 dealers on this forum, all of which dedicate there time to help anyone here, regardless of the brand.
The people here aren't dumb either, they likely wont take to well for someone calling for the infringement of there 1st amendment rights over a poll in which you did not agree. I consider myself friends with a lot of folks on here and have met many, it's a good group of guys and a group I'm proud to be in.
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Scott is right on. Anyone who is seriously researching will take a solid look at past postings and get a good feel for who is trustworthy and who is full of hot water (pun intended.) Anyone who makes a decision as large as a boiler based on 1 single poll at the top of a forum gets what they get. Another thing I've learned is that the little stars next to your name mean something. If you sign up and your first post is bashing our spouting off about a subject, you will not be taken seriously. (not saying you were spouting) There are good guys on here who have earned the respect of the majority of the regulars on here for a good reason.
John
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Ok, I’ve been put in my place. I’d like to start by retracting what I’ve said about this poll - I even removed my annoyed by poll comment. I see that it could be abused but after reading around this site some more I’ve seen that it can be very fair and, as CountryBoyJohn points out, if “your first post is bashing our spouting off about a subject, you will not be taken seriously.” I don’t want to impose on anyone’s 1st amendment rights Scott7m. I can agree with numerous posts I’ve seen that simply ask for the full story.
There are always going to be customers that cannot be satisfied. Sometimes they’re to blame, sometimes they are not. I know that Hawken does everything in its power to satisfy customers. That power is limited though.
I also agree with WillieG, sometimes the installation choices were not correct. Square footage and BTU requirements are not the same thing. Ready2More72 and for the benefit of everyone else reading this, we are aware of your situation. I’ve spoken to the gentleman who visited your facility from Hawken Energy and to the dealer who sold you the unit. When they were there he was told that the house was heating fine, that’s not the issue. The issues you had were with the tall and spacious garage business you’re trying to heat. Your Delta-T at that time was over 30 degrees F. That’s a huge heat loss, as you were told. He also told you that you needed more vertical insulation around the foundation. I’m sure there are others here, and information at wattsradiant.com that was shared with you, that can support this statement. Vertical insulation around a slab needs to extend below the frost line to prevent heat loss from the slab into the earth.
As WillieG said above, “There are many things to consider and if you did not have a pro install your stove then perhaps some of the things mentioned above have not been taken into consideration.” I believe I was told that you had a plumber install your radiant system. Did he do a heat loss calculation? Did he tell you what size pipe you needed to feed the proper BTU’s or how many gallons per minute it would need? I kind of doubt he did – no professional installer would forget to install the proper insulation, and get the heat loss calculation THAT far off. The Hawken company rep who visited your facility from their headquarters on a 25 degree day even noted that the ground all around your building was 5-10 degrees warmer than the rest of the earth, and that all the snow around your building was melted for six feet in every direction, even on the North side out of the sun and wind. If you were burning propane, you would be spending at least $1000 per week to heat that building, and the earth around it.
I’ve been working with Hawken for well over a year now and I’ve seen how they operate. They genuinely care about keeping customers happy and try to help. As stated above, some customers can’t be helped. The HE-2100 operates as it should. The issues are with the installation and construction, something Hawken Energy had nothing to do with.
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Could someone please tell me how to post pictures?
Joe Your information is not correct. When my husband has time he will come on and explain things more clearly so you have a better picture of the situation.
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Much more respectable reply joe :thumbup:
To add pics to the forum I upload to photobucket and then put the links on here...
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I am happy with mine. It is a simply design, ya it burns alot of wood but that is what i expected. Most all non gasses rip through the wood. I heat 3000 sq feet and get a easy 12-14 hour burn. That is all I can ask for. House is set at 74 deg. 24/7.
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I am happy with mine. It is a simply design, ya it burns alot of wood but that is what i expected. Most all non gasses rip through the wood. I heat 3000 sq feet and get a easy 12-14 hour burn. That is all I can ask for. House is set at 74 deg. 24/7.
Couldn't be happier with mine either, I have the larger no gasser (due to building a barn soon) but currently heating 2500 sq ft, keep the house at 74 and heat my water also, fill every 24 hours.
Went away for 2 days and the outside temps were in the teens, turned the hose down to 70 degrees.
Would of probably went one more day beore needing wood.
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Much more respectable reply joe :thumbup:
To add pics to the forum I upload to photobucket and then put the links on here...
Thanks man - I do want to contribute positively to this forum and to help prospective converts. I really go the extra mile to put in GOOD dealers whom I train, support and spend as much time as needed to ensure that our customers have a good installer and service tech.
Most of my guys are old WoodMaster, Pro Fab (Empyre) and Wood Doctor dealers. WoodMaster is still a good company and I liked their dealer base alot. WoodDoctor - had some issues, but that was not the dealers fault.
I also worked for Empyre in the past. I like their product - in fact our outdoor is very similar to the Pro Series..
Anyway - thanks for the kudos - let's try and help people buy and operate good boilers.
My preference being the Hawken of course. ;D
Joe
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One thing nobody ever seems to bring up. All of these outdoor wood burners are made on the North American Continent (I think). They all burn domestic renewable energy. I'd think a lot of propane comes from imported oil. (You may correct me.) It's almost patriotic to be using a wood burner.
Lots of other heating equipment is not made here. Big money spent on those heating appurtenances is money that is out of the country. It's gone. The country is poorer. It's like the big Wall Street types when they hide their money in some Caribbean bank.
When you swing that axe for your Hawken wood burner, you just might be taking a swing for America.
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We purchased a new woodstove from a totally different company. We couldn't be more pleased! We have changed nothing with the set up in our home or in our shop. We only purchased a new stove. We have not had one problem since we purchased the new one. We no longer own the Hawken. We have had nights below 20 degrees and haven’t had any problems. With the Hawken we would have problems on a sunny 50 degree day! As of today we are going on almost 19 hours since we put wood in it. It is below 30 snowing and blowing out and the stove is still burning & our house is toasty warm & so is our shop!
Now tell me again that the problem was our shop & home? Either Hawkens stove has a design flaw or that stove had a flaw but NO one wanted to fix it!
We purchased a new Woodmaster 5500.
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What model Hawken did you have?
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We had a HE-2100. It is rated to heat 10,000 sq ft. It wouldn't do half that. It did not matter how we built the fire in the stove. We could check it at midnight and it would be out by 5 am and the house would be freezing! So any BS excuse anyone attempts to give is just that BS. The stove did not work! We had the company out several times and they kept blaming our shop. Well now what is the excuse? We have a different stove that is rated for the same sq ft & it works perfectly.
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RUN RUN RUN FAR FAR AWAY FROM HAWKEN. They do not live up to their written promises, nor do they respect their customers. And certainly their guarantee is only as good as..... well you get the idea...
RUN RUN RUN AWAY... DON'T BUY A HAWKEN... BUY SOMETHING....ANYTHING ELSE...
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Well I am sorry you had problems with your Hawkens, and I've been holding off on posting because I was in the middle of installing mine and couldn't really comment with any first hand knowledge. Now I can tho.
I am heating a 6000sf house that has no insulation and an antiquated hot water baseboard heating system and also an uninsulated barn of 3000sf that has one entire wall comprised of single pane, floor to ceiling windows. The last couple of weeks our temps have been about 20 degrees below 0 at night, just about 0 during the day and a stiff north wind ALL the time. The Hawken had no trouble what-so-ever heating these 2 buildings. Yes, it chewed thru some wood, but I never had any preconceptions of 12 or 24 hour burn times at those temps!
My Hawken rep has been here to my property no less than 5 times, just to make sure I didn't need anything and to see that everything was going well with my installation. He even came by the morning I fired it up, just to be sure everything was ok.
I am very glad I didn't run away from Hawken.
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dear chaikwa. glad to hear you are happy... your furnace is good for your place...
Your Hawken rep obviously cares.
Our furnace is WRONG, the burn times are short, and our rep calls us back after several days and several phone calls...
Looks like Hawken does care about the few, but they should care about everyone...
Still no results, or sleep for us... We did have a mild night last night and the furnace had a 10 hour burn... WOW, luxury, but it is not even really cold out....
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Schavis,
Sorry for your situation. I do have an idea which would allow you to heat your home with your current boiler. A popular method in Europe is the large water heat storage system. What they do is use wood gassification boilers to heat large insulated water store to 180 degrees and then use the hot water off of this storage for an extended period of time depending on the size. A popular size is 1000 gallons but any extra tank capacity would help you a lot. Your BTU load that the house require obviously won't change but you will be able to use the boiler to build this water store up to temperature and let it go out after it has reached temp until the house brings the water temp in the tank down to a level that it won't sufficiently heat the house any longer. After that you fire the boiler again for a period of time(however long it takes to bring the tank to temp). A popular storage tank is old 500 gallon propane tanks. You can buy these for a reasonable price and then have them sprayfoamed for insulation. I know this sounds like a big project and I know that you wish that you had gotten a larger boiler but if getting a different boiler is not in the cards this would be a way to make your system actually work for you.
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Schavis,
Sorry for your situation. I do have an idea which would allow you to heat your home with your current boiler. A popular method in Europe is the large water heat storage system. What they do is use wood gassification boilers to heat large insulated water store to 180 degrees and then use the hot water off of this storage for an extended period of time depending on the size. A popular size is 1000 gallons but any extra tank capacity would help you a lot. Your BTU load that the house require obviously won't change but you will be able to use the boiler to build this water store up to temperature and let it go out after it has reached temp until the house brings the water temp in the tank down to a level that it won't sufficiently heat the house any longer. After that you fire the boiler again for a period of time(however long it takes to bring the tank to temp). A popular storage tank is old 500 gallon propane tanks. You can buy these for a reasonable price and then have them sprayfoamed for insulation. I know this sounds like a big project and I know that you wish that you had gotten a larger boiler but if getting a different boiler is not in the cards this would be a way to make your system actually work for you.
I've heard this works really well too. I'd give it a shot before I spent money on another boiler.
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dear hondaracer2oo4
Thanks for the idea... The entire purpose to buying from a reputable company is that they know what they are doing... WELL, this certainly didn't prove true with HAWKEN. They just sold us the only thing they had and hoped for the best, well it didn't work... now they say tough... I just wanted to put it out there for everyone to see. We really don't have any space to put such huge storage tanks, our city only allows 1 out building or structure, and we have that now... so, the long story short, too late, is that we need to have a furnace that is properly sized to our current system and our house's heating needs.
Thanks again for your reply.
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I feel for you, not everyone has a scott, RSI, or slim in there area to install. Its really showing that many dealers will push whatever they have left in their inventory , regardless if it fits. Sounds like a pyramid scheme by the manufacutrers. Too many bad dealers are giving the good ones a bad rep.
However, IF you have to make your system work, I posted a link from Siegenthaler on wood boiler applications. There are many picture diagrams and full explanations of equipment and controls and staging with storage. Using storage actually makes your system more efficient anyways. Anytime you reduce or eliminate idling , it save wood. A simple 120 gallon tank will work , it doesnt have to be huge. I would suggest a full calculation of X # of gallons would do for you. Most of the indoor boilers are 60-200kbtu size and they heat 500 gal in 4 hours flat out gasing. This is recover time not cold start. 160 on and 180-185 off. several of those 1000-2000 gal storage heat the house for 2-3 days without firing again. The LP tank doesnt have to be indoors and it doesnt have to be pressure. Some are just framing a box around it and spray foaming.
Anyways even if you dont keep the hawken, the storage will work with anything, and its easy to sell off. Youll see storage equipment and controls dont last long on CL or the forums. good luck
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Nice suggestion Honda
I see the GX-10 is a pretty small boiler with only about 100 gallons of water. Even Hawken only rates it for 3500 square feet and we all know that manufacture ratings are really best case scenario. Reality is about 1/2 of the rating.
Lots of options for more storage, just use your imagination.
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I am not sure extra storage is going to be the answer here. Storage works best when you have the ability to heat using low water temps (110-120ish)ie. radient floor, the newer fin tube base board. The ability to go down this low allows you to pack a lot more usable btu's into the given amount of storage. For example if your system requires water temps of at least 160 to heat, and you can only bring your storage up to 180, you only have a difference of 20 degrees. In a 1000 gallon storage that is only 160,000 stored btu's. Now if you could continue to heat all the way down to 110 you could store 560,000 btu's in that same 1000 gallon tank.
It sounds like Schavis has a large heat load. With out knowing what it is we are all just guessing. Schavis, please explain your system, (forced air??, base board??). What are your normal winter temps? How old, large and insulated is your home? What did you heat with before and how much fuel did you use in a heating season. Sounds like you live in town so you had to go with a gasser.
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Gasser is required by Law in Maryland...
We heat a 2200 sft house built in 1908 with virtually no insulation and original windows which have storm windows in place. There are 10 rooms with 10 large tube style radiators from about when the house was first built. Our heat source before OWF was a newer oil boiler, burning just over 1100 gal in a heating season.
The GX10 is CERTAINLY INADEQUATE TO HEAT OUR HOUSE. Hawken calculated it to be good. After research, I really did find that sft alone is really not the way to calculate a load... duh! should have known that, but we trusted the experts... well Hawken is NOT an EXPERT, nor do they stand behind their guarantees..
We are now considering replacing the Hawken (only a few months old) with a Central Boiler E Classic 2400. Looks like the correct BTU and sizing... the bummer is that we now have to redo it all. and in the middle of winter...
Your feedback on this is appreciated.
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Gasser is required by Law in Maryland...
We heat a 2200 sft house built in 1908 with virtually no insulation and original windows which have storm windows in place. There are 10 rooms with 10 large tube style radiators from about when the house was first built. Our heat source before OWF was a newer oil boiler, burning just over 1100 gal in a heating season.
The GX10 is CERTAINLY INADEQUATE TO HEAT OUR HOUSE. Hawken calculated it to be good. After research, I really did find that sft alone is really not the way to calculate a load... duh! should have known that, but we trusted the experts... well Hawken is NOT an EXPERT, nor do they stand behind their guarantees..
We are now considering replacing the Hawken (only a few months old) with a Central Boiler E Classic 2400. Looks like the correct BTU and sizing... the bummer is that we now have to redo it all. and in the middle of winter...
Your feedback on this is appreciated.
Don't make any rash decisions yet, it seems like if you were only using 1100 gallons of fuel oil before, the gx 10 should work. I am no expert by any means but I will share what I think I know. A gallon of fuel oil is 140,000 btu's. A newer fuel oil boiler is probably 80% effecient. 1100*140,000=154,000,000. 154,000,000*0.80=123,200,000 per heating season. 180 days in the heating season 123,200,000/180=684,444btu's per day. 684,444/24=28,518 btu's/hour. EPA burnwise table has the gx10 rated at 78,000btu's/hour for 8 hours.
On paper, that gx10 should work.....all that said, this winter has been very cold so far. With temps below 0 along with a stiff breeze I would guess your homes btu requirements could very well be 4-5 times its average requirements, which would get you down to that 6-7 hour burn time.
Has the hawken been keeping up this past week or so during more "normal" temps? Are you 100% sure your wood is seasoned? Do you plan on improving the insulation and windows in your home?
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Lots of factors with OWBs as far as burn times. The system must be designed correctly to supply the house with the house. Woodman I think is right on with his thinking and questions. How did the oil boiler make out with the current heat layout in the house? Did it keep everything up to temp where you wanted it? If so and the calcs are correct you have a problem with the delivery system from the OWB. Could you give us the temp readings of the pex lines from and to boiler when it leaves the boiler and when it returns as well as the temps across the water to water heat exchanger when it enters and exits on the owb side. Also the temps of the water to water hx on the house side. You should take these readings at a few different points. One when nothing is calling for heat in the house, two when half the zones are calling for heat and three when all zones are calling. Thanks.
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@woodman... yes, it has been cold this winter, but when it is really cold, like in the single digits, our burn time is 3-4 hours ... A few weeks ago, I pretty much didn't do anything more than fill the furnace and take naps....
Yes, the wood is good and seasoned....
During these more normal temps... meaning up in the 40's during the day and below freezing at night, we have gotten up to 9 hours or burn time... I don't think that is really keeping up with heating needs... The only time we ever get a good burn time is when it is over 55 during the day and only in the upper 30's at night.
The delivery system in the house (the cast iron pipes and radiators) have been providing heat just fine for almost 100 years with all sorts of different furnaces. While many say the old radiators are inefficient, they deliver good heat and do the job well when there is hot water to be had... but the Hawken just can't keep up...
We have added triple track storms to the windows, and they help keep the house warmer, but no other plans to improve insulation, just WAY too costly and not practical due to the layout and construction of the house.
Thanks for your comments... Gotta go out and fill the furnace now.
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Shavis, we would like to help. I think something is wrong with the delivery system from the owb to the home. Could you give us the temps thAt I was looking for in my previous post. I think we may see a glaring problem there.
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@woodman... yes, it has been cold this winter, but when it is really cold, like in the single digits, our burn time is 3-4 hours ... A few weeks ago, I pretty much didn't do anything more than fill the furnace and take naps....
Yes, the wood is good and seasoned....
During these more normal temps... meaning up in the 40's during the day and below freezing at night, we have gotten up to 9 hours or burn time... I don't think that is really keeping up with heating needs... The only time we ever get a good burn time is when it is over 55 during the day and only in the upper 30's at night.
The delivery system in the house (the cast iron pipes and radiators) have been providing heat just fine for almost 100 years with all sorts of different furnaces. While many say the old radiators are inefficient, they deliver good heat and do the job well when there is hot water to be had... but the Hawken just can't keep up...
We have added triple track storms to the windows, and they help keep the house warmer, but no other plans to improve insulation, just WAY too costly and not practical due to the layout and construction of the house.
Thanks for your comments... Gotta go out and fill the furnace now.
Something doesn't add up here. Without the temp readings honda is asking for, we are again just guessing. With what you have told us so far, and not being able to see your set up, I would question the obvious. 1) Is your wood really around 20%? 2)What did you use for underground pipe and is it losing heat to the water table? Also if you could explain how you have your setup plumbed inside.
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Come on guys! His wood is seasoned!! He's said that at least twice now! Besides, damp wood is not going to cause these drastic burn times! Move on!
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Come on guys! His wood is seasoned!! He's said that at least twice now! Besides, damp wood is not going to cause these drastic burn times! Move on!
In a gasser? Are you serious?
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Actually woodman a little green wood in our gasser is not a bad thing at all as long as there is load enough on the unit, it creates less charcoal and allows for better air flow.
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Actually woodman a little green wood in our gasser is not a bad thing at all as long as there is load enough on the unit, it creates less charcoal and allows for better air flow.
I did not know that. I thought the gassers were very temperamental to mc and would not fire correctly if it got above a certain point.
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Hopefully he can get us those numbers and we can figure out where the system needs to be fixed.
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@hondaracer2oo4 and @ woodman It is snowing big time outside and we have a bunch of wind... so the temps are for when the zones are calling for heat... BRRR wicked cold out right now.. so this is what I got for ya. Water jacket temp reads 172 on the front of the unit. The supply line on back of furnace measures out to be about 165 and the return line 139. Inside the basement about 75 feet or so the lines measure 163 and 137.
The lines across the plate exchanger measure 165 135 on the Furnace side and 137 121 on the house water side.
Air temp inside the house is 68
Is this what you needed to maybe help? Did I miss anything?
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Ok, To start off what is your aquastat set outside at? Most of us run 185 off and 175 on in cold temps, you look to be way below that. It looks like your plate exchanger may be to small. What size is it? Someone that runs a plate exchanger should be able to chime in and let us know what the proper temp rise across a water to water heat exchanger should be. Your Delta t looks OK but I suspect you need a bigger plate exchanger to get your temps up much closer to the boiler temps which means that you will also want to move the water faster so that you keep around a 20 degree drop on the owb side. Im not surprised that you can't keep the house warm with 137 degree temps on the house side. It doesn't look to be the boilers fault it looks like something in your delivery system is no sufficient.
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@hondaracer2oo4 The plate exchanger is the one that Hawken sold us with the unit.. they just call it a High Capacity Plate Type Heat Exchanger and it cost $425 there are a load of plates in it, and I know it is heavy. The installer put a strap across where the words are on it so I can't read it. The entire unit, piping, etc was installed by Hawken. You think they would have done it right? Also, the instruction manual that Hawken provided me with tells you "Don not alter the settings on your Digital Temperature Controller" so I don't even know what they are, and they have been absolutely no help to me at all.
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Hopefully slim or sprinter can chime in what he knows about plate exchangers and the amount of heat transfer that is appropriate.
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A 30 degree delta t is significant. Is the hawkin gassing correctly? Are you getting much smoke, or is it burning cleanly?
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@Woodman - from what the big cheeses at Hawken tell me, it is burning correctly - when you open the lower door it looks like a blow torch flame... I get smoke generally only right after it is loaded, or if the temp falls lower than 140 - on those cold nights when I get a burn time of 4 hours and I choose to sleep 5.
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Tubes are clean?
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Shavis, what is your aquastat set for? Like I said you really need to be operating at 180 plus to get the heat that is needed into the house. What temp does your oil boiler run at? We need to have the heat exchanger producing at least that temp to be able to heat as your oil burner does.
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The furnace is clean and good...
The aquastat on the oil burner has been set at 140 for 12 years... we never change it. From what I can tell, the settings on the OWF are 185 and 140. The 140 is as high as it goes on the low end from what I can tell.
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If it is the same mechanical honeywell aquistat that I have, there should be a roller on the right side of it which allows you to set the difference between the high and low set point. I think mine is adjustable from 10-30. That is not going to help your burn times though, and I am sorry to say I am out of ideas for you. I think you have every right to be upset with Hawkin as it seems you did everything correctly. What really throws me though is the EPA rated btu's. I really thought those numbers could be trusted..... I think I would forward this thread directly to Hawkin and ask them to make a responce here, if they are sure there is no problem on their end.
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How often is the stove in gasser mode?(not idling). I am wondering why your indoor temps after the heat exchanger aren't higher. You should be able to raise the temps on the house side of the exchanger to within 10 degrees of the stove I believe.
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@woodman... thanks anyway... I have already told Hawken all this and they basically say tough... not their problem...
@hondaracer2oo4 Well today, it is not idling much at all... I did catch it idle for about 5 minutes an hour ago, but I can't see it from my office, so I only can tell you that most everytime I check on it, the fan is running and it is gassing.
Thanks everyone, I do wish Hawken would care a little and man up to the fact that they messed up and should have never sold and installed this unit at my house... yes, it was Hawken that installed it, I didn't do it myself.
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I am still baffled why you are having issues getting your in house temps up to the temp of the outdoor boiler??? This doesn't make sense. It should be able to output at full output the amount of btu's that you need for your home even if everything is calling for heat at one time. But it looks as though it can't bring it up to the temp of the owb for some reason. It also doesn't make sense to me that you would go through so many btu's from the owb but by your amount of fuel that you payed for when using your indoor boiler the numbers don't ad up. Something is a miss here.
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These next few days could be a real opportunity to see what his home's heat requirements are. If it was me I would bypass the owb and let the oil burner heat the house for 24 hours. Keep the thermostat exactly where it is with the hawkin. Then either measure how much oil is used in 24 hours and or time how many minutes per hour the oil burner fires (assuming he knows what size nozzle it has). I have an idea the demand is going to be huge.
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It has to be if it's straight gassing all day!
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we left the house all day friday to have a little me time.... Left at 8am and returned at 7 pm. All that was left in the firebox was ash, yes ash, not even coals, so I figured I would just let it go overnight and see how the oil heated the house when the Hawken couldn't.... The oil furnace heated the house and the return loop on the OWB and the water jacket of the GX10, and all the water in the radiators... It ran alot, but heated the house. ... the temp on the front of the unit held at 110 all night with no fire... So I guess I really can't tell you how much the furnace works to heat just the house, it now has the EXTRA load of the GX 10, 80 feet of pipe and whatever heat loss we get on the plate exchanger.
@hondaracer... yes, the Hawken NEVER took a break the other day... it could not even bring the temps up to 180, they hovered between 160 and 173 for the better part of 30 hours...
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Shavis,
"heating" the gx10 with the indoor boiler really isnt any load on the system. After the water is up it really shouldnt lose much? Its not heating anything. Your GX10 also heats the house fine correct? The burn times are just shorter than you would like. Would you be able to give us an estimate on how much 'alot' is in hours? Could you tell us the BTU rating of the indoor boiler is? Should be right on the plate somewhere on it.
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The GX10 can only heat the house "fine" when the temps don't fall below freezing, at 30 it only has a burn time of 6 hours, at 20 about 4.5 to 5 hours and at 10 and below it needs wood every 4 hours or less just to keep the water temps of the GX10 over 170. Our burn times as you can see are VERY SHORT... It is not that they are shorter than I would like them to be, it is that if I want to have more than 4 hours of sleep without filling the furnace, I loose temps and then have to recover from a low water temp in the furnace and the oil burner kicks in. So they are just NOT acceptable and certainly not even close to what Hawken says they should be.
I disagree with you saying the GX10 isn't a load on the oil boiler, there is about 110 gallons of water that is outside (even though it is insulated) with an air temp of 10, it has to be loosing temperature. And doesn't the transfer plate and the sidearm heat exchanger work both ways?
The oil boiler is 149,000. It has been servicing the house just fine for 13 years. "alot" can be defined as - it cycles on and off all day... if I had endless time to sit in the kitchen and listen to it and use a stop watch, I could tell you, but I would be fat as a tick - eating and cooking all day. So, I really cant quantify a total running time on the oil... sorry.
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Shavis, how many cords of wood have you gone through and when did you start up for the season? Sure the OWB is a 'load' but really should be not much of a load at all. Yes the plate works in both directions, sidearm really doesn't work well in reverse. It should be VERY easy though to maintain the boiler temp though. You don't need to sit in the kitchen all day and listen. 30 minutes would be sufficient. That would give you an average over that day. Just multiply the number of minutes it fired in that 30 minutes by 48 and that will give you the number of minutes in a 24 hour period(an average but close enough). That will allow us to calculate the amount of btus used in a 24 hour period as well as the number of gallons a day etc. Did the plate have a GPM for the nozzle on it?
By the way any way to measure your exit temps of the stack when it leaves your boiler? I forgot to make sure that you had been keeping up with cleaning the heat exchangers once a week in the owb. Having them even slightly dirty significantly reduces your heat transfer abilities and would not allow you to bring the owb up to temp and would just shoot all of the heat outside.
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Hey Shavis! As a closeted gx10 owner I have been following your saga with painfully similar experiences.
I was going along ok earlier this season, and by that I mean we have the thermostat set to 61 and I was stretching out 8 to 9 hour burn times. I’m into some crappier wood now (dead standing maple cut this fall) and it’s causing lots of problems. Can’t keep the boiler up to temp and unfortunately since I work, I have no choice but to fill it up every morning and hope for a miracle. I have a security camera pointed on it, and most days I watch from work as it smokes away like a locomotive. Frustrated, angry, embarrassed, cold; I feel your pain (mostly in my freezing hands and feet).
To anyone out there that can help me... Should I dump the DHW? With 2 zones running, the wife’s 15min shower will drop boiler temp from 180 down to 145. Is forced air more efficient than hydronic baseboards? Would staple up radiant be a better solution? Is there anything I can do to increase burn times or at least bump up the thermostat a few degrees? In the off season we put r-60 in the attic and installed thermal shades on all the windows. Doesn't seem to be helping much.
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Found time to move some wood around and got into better seasoned stuff. What a huge difference! I’m back to quick burning cycles, less smoke, and much improved wood consumption.
Also, one thing I did discover when trouble shooting was in the blower assembly. The fan blades were very clogged. They had A LOT of insulation particles that were caked in soot stuck to them. I cleaned it all out, and it is blowing considerably more air.
Being a newbie to owning a gasification boiler I have experienced a lot of problems with the learning curve associated with running the thing. As far as the GX10 in particular, most of my frustrations come from how I was led to believe the stove would work v.s. what I actually experience. They lead you to believe that the thing sips fuel, doesn’t smoke, and is an ease to operate. The truth is it burns wood, sometimes a lot of it. It smokes, especially if conditions are not absolutely perfect. And, if something is off (crap wood, plugged nozzle, dirty heat exchangers, air flow issues, etc.) you’ve got problems.
I hate to complain too much. I will save over $7000 on heating oil this season. I just wish it could better keep up with the demands of my house - longer burn times, warmer temps.