Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Central Boiler => Topic started by: adamant on January 13, 2017, 04:00:45 PM
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Question about a taco 0014 01 pump. I want to up grade my pump to a metal impeller but don't want to switch out the whole pump or the Volute. Do you know if they make a impeller replacement part that I can just slip in? I got a email into the manufacture but haven't heard back from them yet.
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Do you know what caused it to do that?
For the price of the cartridge for that pump, you are probably better off just replacing the pump with something else.
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rsi, thank you. whats your recommendations?
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That would depend on how close to the correct size this pump was.
I am assuming it is not mounted at the boiler. How far away is it? Once thing that could have caused the impeller to fail is cavitation caused by negative pressure at the pump inlet. If that is happening, you would be better off with a smaller pump if possible. You can estimate if the pump is getting a proper supply by running water out of the pipe while the pump is removed into a bucket and timing it. If you are getting less than the estimated flow rate for the system then it will not have enough inlet pressure.
If the pump was sized correctly, I would replace it with a Grundfos 26-99 and probably run it on medium or low. If the 0014 was too big then I would go with a 15-58.
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Was there a possibility of ice in the pipe? Pumps pump water not ice.
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I've seen them do that from steam rather than ice. These pumps can't pump steam! A co-worker of
Mine has a large model (forget the side) legend wood boiler and he was loosing a pump one a month. Thank god for warranty. After we did a little research we came to find that the water was turning to steam and the pump was burning up. We added a larger inlet pipe 1-1/4" and turned down the water temp from 195 to 185. So far so good.
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Cavitation most likely. Cavitation is caused by lowering the intake side of the pumps intake pressure(pumping more out than it is able to take in). Water boils as 212 degrees at 14 psi atmospheric pressure. As you lower the pressure of the incoming water te boiling poit of water also goes down. So at 195 and a small intake line you were probably cavitating which was turning the incoming water to steam and as it is repressurized on the discharge side it quickly collapses back to liquid form causing that terrible noise you hear when you cavitate a pump. This process is very rough on any type or pump and is even worse on those cheap taco plastic ones.
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Your right. People think that putting a pump at the lowest spot is the best , but on the stove is best. Push the water in an open system is better. Just sold an 011 taco to someone who's impeller looked the same. Meltdown from cavitation.
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Yes people have a hard time wrapping their head around a pump circulating water(closed system where the pump pushes water back to the inlet) vs a pump pumping water in an open system where atmospheric pressure has to push water to the inlet side of the pump.
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I've always told friends to keep the pump on the stove with a larger inlet than outlet. Most don't listen and rather change their pump in the basement where it's warm. I have my stove in a small shed i built around it, doesn't bother me to be out there and change a pump but so far I haven't had to. I rather change one once every 3-5 years outside in the cold than every year in the basement.
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I have a taco 11 in my basement, 250 feet from my stove, it has been there and working every winter since 2003. I shut it off in April and start it up in late October, I have never turned it on in the summer one time.
not sure why I have never had any of the problems mentioned with having the pump in the basement?
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I'm sure you have enough head pressure on the push side being so far from the stove that your pump doesn't move a lot of water. My guess you would be in the 4-5 gallons per minute range. That being said you may have enough feed for the pump that it doesn't have any cavitation issues. Some have theirs only 75 or like my friend 90 feet from the stove with very little drop in elevation. His pump is pushing 10gpm at that distance (calculated). Since these pumps don't "suck" water at all I believe his pump is starving for water all the time because he isn't pushing water back to the pump. It is basically gravity feeding to the pump through a 1-1/4 line. I believe it's hard to get 10gpm that way when he pump only pushes 10gpm back to the stove. I hope u can picture what I'm saying. Basically as long as u get a supply to the pump that it needs at all times it will be fine. I'm not one to believe all this head pressure vs distance vs line size crap because none of it actually calculates outs to a real live test. I push my water 260 feet, 130 both ways, and I lift the water about 12 feet. My pump technically shouldn't be able to do this or at best push only 1gpm but it does like 6 or 7 because I can over flow a 5 gallon bucket at the stove where the pump is mounted 260 feet later. That's why I always make sure my pump gets adequate water flow by me physically testing it before the install because those numbers equations are garbage to me lol
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I've always told friends to keep the pump on the stove with a larger inlet than outlet. Most don't listen and rather change their pump in the basement where it's warm. I have my stove in a small shed i built around it, doesn't bother me to be out there and change a pump but so far I haven't had to. I rather change one once every 3-5 years outside in the cold than every year in the basement.
This is just wrong thinking to start with, if mounted on the stove and your still changing pumps every year then either quit pumping water out of the ditch to fill the stove or stop buying the cheapest pump you can find.
Pumps can be in the basement, no problem, just don’t expect them to move near as much water as if it was mounted on the rear of the stove right next to the water supply. IE in other words use a smaller pump or turn the one down you have.
Couldn’t believe it, but we have a 750 gallon stainless tank mounted above the rear axle on one of our four wheel drive tractors, then a 1 1/2” line feeding the spray pump directly below it mounted on the drawbar, maybe 2 foot of line at most, but having a strainer in the line with a screen of 1/8” openings was enough to cause it to cavitate and ruin a $800 dollar pump. Running a screen of 1/4” mesh seems to be alright, again, less than 2 foot of line.
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Think u need to re read that. I'm not changing pumps but he is. Mine is on the stove his is not. Mine is fine his needs replacing once per year. Secondly like I said u need water flow coming in being the same or more as going out. Some of this gets over calculated when it is so very simple. Pretty much what u explained. I run the cheapest pump on the market so I hear going 2 years strong with way more than it should be doing. Having it in the basement IS fine if you can have the correct flow coming in as going out. Pretty much what u said. I don't think that is thinking wrong, that's thinking logical in my eyes.
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aarmga I understand most of what you describe and I think I am getting a between 5 and 6 gpm from when I can feel hot water arriving at the pump when the system is started in the fall. (250 feet from stove to pump and it takes 1.5 minutes from start up until I feel heat in the line)
with my pump in the basement I felt I should be on the low side of the maximum suggested flow for 1 inch pex ala pex. the suggested flow rates I found on line were from 5.2 gpm to 10.4 and why pump more, 5 gpm is supposed to deliver 50,000 btu per minute and that suits my needs
I found a line in your post somewhat baffling though, you said you were lifting water 12 feet? doesn't matter where your stove is, if your pump is on the stove you cant be lifting water 12 feet, you could be pushing it up hill 12 feet
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Think u need to re read that. I'm not changing pumps but he is. Mine is on the stove his is not. Mine is fine his needs replacing once per year. Secondly like I said u need water flow coming in being the same or more as going out. Some of this gets over calculated when it is so very simple. Pretty much what u explained. I run the cheapest pump on the market so I hear going 2 years strong with way more than it should be doing. Having it in the basement IS fine if you can have the correct flow coming in as going out. Pretty much what u said. I don't think that is thinking wrong, that's thinking logical in my eyes.
Never said you, meant those that only mount in the basement because they don’t want to change one outside, anybody that’s really done there research usually puts the pump at the stove, so much easier to get the air out for starters, and its not like they are going to go out yearly when mounted at the stove so the argument of having it in the basement is moot. Got almost 15 years out of a grundfos on my old stove, no screen or anything before the pump, now its in the basement on snow melt duty.
Calculating the correct flow coming in would be either gravity flow or by head pressure, therefore you need a pump that won’t move much more than that or you’re cavitating it. Circulation pumps are not self priming, IE won’t pull water or build a vacuum to pull water to them.
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I agree 5gpm is more than enough that I have found. You are right I'm not "lifting" my water 12 feet I am pushing it uphill 12 feet. I do however push it 6 feet almost straight up from the basement and I push it another 6 feet exactly straight up 90* from the 4ft bury to 2foot loop back into the stove that's where my thinking came from. I did this long before I knew it would be better doing gradual grade rises but it works very well for how bad the line install was. I was thinking keep the line buried for longer is better when really it shouldn't matter that much for the frost line issue. I am using close foam insulated pex so I'm not going to redo it. When I get my garage line dug in this summer it will be done the correct way.
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I'm sure you have enough head pressure on the push side being so far from the stove that your pump doesn't move a lot of water. My guess you would be in the 4-5 gallons per minute range. That being said you may have enough feed for the pump that it doesn't have any cavitation issues. Some have theirs only 75 or like my friend 90 feet from the stove with very little drop in elevation. His pump is pushing 10gpm at that distance (calculated). Since these pumps don't "suck" water at all I believe his pump is starving for water all the time because he isn't pushing water back to the pump. It is basically gravity feeding to the pump through a 1-1/4 line. I believe it's hard to get 10gpm that way when he pump only pushes 10gpm back to the stove. I hope u can picture what I'm saying. Basically as long as u get a supply to the pump that it needs at all times it will be fine. I'm not one to believe all this head pressure vs distance vs line size crap because none of it actually calculates outs to a real live test. I push my water 260 feet, 130 both ways, and I lift the water about 12 feet. My pump technically shouldn't be able to do this or at best push only 1gpm but it does like 6 or 7 because I can over flow a 5 gallon bucket at the stove where the pump is mounted 260 feet later. That's why I always make sure my pump gets adequate water flow by me physically testing it before the install because those numbers equations are garbage to me lol
When calculating head pressure in the loop, elevation does not make a difference. (except for being able to fill the line initially)
If you do a bucket test like that, you need to have the discharge pipe at the same level as the top of the water in the boiler? If the height is higher or lower, it will change the flow rate.
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Think u need to re read that. I'm not changing pumps but he is. Mine is on the stove his is not. Mine is fine his needs replacing once per year. Secondly like I said u need water flow coming in being the same or more as going out. Some of this gets over calculated when it is so very simple. Pretty much what u explained. I run the cheapest pump on the market so I hear going 2 years strong with way more than it should be doing. Having it in the basement IS fine if you can have the correct flow coming in as going out. Pretty much what u said. I don't think that is thinking wrong, that's thinking logical in my eyes.
Never said you, meant those that only mount in the basement because they don’t want to change one outside, anybody that’s really done there research usually puts the pump at the stove, so much easier to get the air out for starters, and its not like they are going to go out yearly when mounted at the stove so the argument of having it in the basement is moot. Got almost 15 years out of a grundfos on my old stove, no screen or anything before the pump, now its in the basement on snow melt duty.
Calculating the correct flow coming in would be either gravity flow or by head pressure, therefore you need a pump that won’t move much more than that or you’re cavitating it. Circulation pumps are not self priming, IE won’t pull water or build a vacuum to pull water to them.
I understand and sorry for the misinterpretation. I work for a large ductile installation company for gas/fiber optic/power although I'm a diesel tech I do understand how flow works with water in this types of pipe. I have learned that you need almost 1.25" the size pipe for a gravity fed pump that is doing 10gpm. Again this is a calculated theory and I rather use my hands and eyes to prove this theory. I have found that it does work fairly well without any restrictions in place like a screen. So with a 1 inch line I should have a 1.25" gravity fed line to feed that said pump if it can push 10gpm in the 1inch pipe. My natures comfort dinosaur smoke dragon does have a 1.5" feed pipe going to the pump so I'm sure that is keeping my cheap broeder pump alive. It's too bad we couldn't have a small trash pump with a screw impeller that did draw suction at the fill line. I think 2" is the smallest I've found and they are big money.
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on another note, taco pumps must be mounted to their specifications (position of motor) to work correctly and avoid problems like cavitation)
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All depends on your setup, I have 120 feet or so of sidewalk thats heated too, between the DHW, a 110,000BTU HX in the furnace and the sidewalk, with only 5gpm my delta T would be horrendous if everything was running at once, if its cold enough out the sidewalk can pull harder than the DHW and the HX in the furnace.
I’m running roughly 117’ of Logstor, then it’s all 1” copper in the basement with primary/secondary loops to everything, running a Taco Delta T pump that keeps up very well if you ignore the lag. Will most likely be adding a whirlpool tub in the future along with some radiant or something upstairs.
The wife has mentioned a time or two about doing a heated driveway for where she parks, only 75’ of that then….
Told her once I figure it out she can cut the extra wood.
I know how hard the sidewalk pulls, my system would fall flat on its face if I was only heating the wheel tracks for that drive.
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What is the lag from? Do you have the sensor a long way from the heat exchanger?
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When calculating head pressure in the loop, elevation does not make a difference. (except for being able to fill the line initially)
If you do a bucket test like that, you need to have the discharge pipe at the same level as the top of the water in the boiler? If the height is higher or lower, it will change the flow rate.
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Does waist high count??? I know that's 2 feet lower than the top of the water in the stove but that's where I did my bucket test. What kind of head pressure am I running at 260 feet then? I did calculate elevation change one direction as that's how I was taught to do so.
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Delta T pump is at the stove, depending what kicks on in the house and the fact the sensors are mounted to the black pipe instead of immersion, the delta T can get up to 30-40 degrees before the Taco can compensate, once it does I can run a steady rock solid 20 degree delta T with everything going, this is watching the gauges at the boiler.
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When calculating head pressure in the loop, elevation does not make a difference. (except for being able to fill the line initially)
If you do a bucket test like that, you need to have the discharge pipe at the same level as the top of the water in the boiler? If the height is higher or lower, it will change the flow rate.
Does waist high count??? I know that's 2 feet lower than the top of the water in the stove but that's where I did my bucket test. What kind of head pressure am I running at 260 feet then? I did calculate elevation change one direction as that's how I was taught to do so.
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In one direction yes, one advantage of having the pump at the stove, if it’s pushing to get to the house, that uphill is canceled out by the downhill on its way back, or vice versa.
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All depends on your setup, I have 120 feet or so of sidewalk thats heated too, between the DHW, a 110,000BTU HX in the furnace and the sidewalk, with only 5gpm my delta T would be horrendous if everything was running at once, if its cold enough out the sidewalk can pull harder than the DHW and the HX in the furnace.
I’m running roughly 117’ of Logstor, then it’s all 1” copper in the basement with primary/secondary loops to everything, running a Taco Delta T pump that keeps up very well if you ignore the lag. Will most likely be adding a whirlpool tub in the future along with some radiant or something upstairs.
The wife has mentioned a time or two about doing a heated driveway for where she parks, only 75’ of that then….
Told her once I figure it out she can cut the extra wood.
I know how hard the sidewalk pulls, my system would fall flat on its face if I was only heating the wheel tracks for that drive.
That g400 must be a beastly stove. Never got the chance to see one in person yet. I'm hoping RSI will have one in the spring/summer/fall time. I might have to take a loan from the savings account
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When calculating head pressure in the loop, elevation does not make a difference. (except for being able to fill the line initially)
If you do a bucket test like that, you need to have the discharge pipe at the same level as the top of the water in the boiler? If the height is higher or lower, it will change the flow rate.
Does waist high count??? I know that's 2 feet lower than the top of the water in the stove but that's where I did my bucket test. What kind of head pressure am I running at 260 feet then? I did calculate elevation change one direction as that's how I was taught to do so.
In one direction yes, one advantage of having the pump at the stove, if it’s pushing to get to the house, that uphill is canceled out by the downhill on its way back, or vice versa.
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That's what I was taught. Thanks for clarifying that for me.
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All depends on your setup, I have 120 feet or so of sidewalk thats heated too, between the DHW, a 110,000BTU HX in the furnace and the sidewalk, with only 5gpm my delta T would be horrendous if everything was running at once, if its cold enough out the sidewalk can pull harder than the DHW and the HX in the furnace.
I’m running roughly 117’ of Logstor, then it’s all 1” copper in the basement with primary/secondary loops to everything, running a Taco Delta T pump that keeps up very well if you ignore the lag. Will most likely be adding a whirlpool tub in the future along with some radiant or something upstairs.
The wife has mentioned a time or two about doing a heated driveway for where she parks, only 75’ of that then….
Told her once I figure it out she can cut the extra wood.
I know how hard the sidewalk pulls, my system would fall flat on its face if I was only heating the wheel tracks for that drive.
That g400 must be a beastly stove. Never got the chance to see one in person yet. I'm hoping RSI will have one in the spring/summer/fall time. I might have to take a loan from the savings account
Yah it is, thing is after getting all new windows in the house and tightening the shop up considerably trying to keep mosquitos out after thirteen inches of rain in August, I’m going to downsize to a G200, wanted to do it last weekend when it was sixty here but I don’t have one sitting here and neither does my distributor, instead looks like it will be after winter returns. Once you can feel the return water from the sidewalk start to warm up, it doesn’t pull near as hard, but if its cold enough out at first that glycol may be well below zero.
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Whether the pump is in the house or at the stove, the uphill / downhill will always cancel each out. (assuming pump getting proper feed water, etc)
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Do u have a mixing valve somewhere or does that cold antifreeze head right into the stove?
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Whether the pump is in the house or at the stove, the uphill / downhill will always cancel each out. (assuming pump getting proper feed water, etc)
Assuming there is no cavitation I presume? I tried the pump in the basement deal the first year I built my original stove, worked much better at the stove the second year, so much easier to get it bled as well.
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Do u have a mixing valve somewhere or does that cold antifreeze head right into the stove?
Nah, the snow melt is on the third secondary loop. The actual glycol is totally isolated from the stove water. I use a 30 FPHX for that. The glycol is in a self contained system with a one gallon reservoir I built out of a small air tank. The pump on the snow melt loop pulls directly out of the tank, on the outlet side it T’s off, one side of the T goes to the FPHX, the other to the cold side of a tempering valve, the outlet side of the FPHX goes to the hot side of the tempering valve. It’s set at 80 degrees which is all it takes if you start it before the snow gets more than an inch deep. I use another small circulator to pump stove water out of the primary loop to the other side of the FPHX. In the kitchen is a mechanical 0-12 hour timer, when it starts to snow turn the timer to however long its supposed to last, the timer leads goto a Taco Switching relay, when activated it turns on both pumps, one for the glycol, one for the secondary loop.
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Yeah, I am sure cavitation has to make a difference in flow.
If someone has a stove that doesn't have a decent door on the back with easy access then I don't blame them for putting it in the house. My first boiler had a bolt on back panel and fiberglass bats that had to be taken out to make the pipe connections and then packed back in around them. I did not put the pump at the stove because it would have been miserable changing a pump. Just unhooking the pipes when I pulled the stove out was bad enough.
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The only thing I'm confused about is that even if the water is going downhill the pump is still pushing the water otherwise it would just gravity feed down to the basement but I get way more flow than that.
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Yeah, I am sure cavitation has to make a difference in flow.
If someone has a stove that doesn't have a decent door on the back with easy access then I don't blame them for putting it in the house. My first boiler had a bolt on back panel and fiberglass bats that had to be taken out to make the pipe connections and then packed back in around them. I did not put the pump at the stove because it would have been miserable changing a pump. Just unhooking the pipes when I pulled the stove out was bad enough.
I’m sure I had some cavitation going on with the pump in the basement, after moving it to the stove my temperature drop on a call for heat went down.
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Sounds like you have an amazing set up! Do u run your pump on demand or continuous?
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Gravity(14 psi at sea level) pushes the water to the pump from the stove. The line between te stove and the pump have what is called friction loss which is the resistance to flow caused by the water riding near the sides if the pump. As long as the friction loss on the intake side doesn't lower the gpm to the pump to a gpm less than the pump can pump out with the headloss on the discharge side you are fine.
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Sounds like you have an amazing set up! Do u run your pump on demand or continuous?
The pump for the shop loop is on high at all times, Logstor to the shop to a 70 plate, then 1 1/4” from the flat plate to the waste oil boiler. Both loops use a Grundfos 26-99 on high.
Running a Taco Delta T pump on the house loop, with no call for heat it runs very slow then ramps up to try to keep the temperature difference as close to 20 degrees as possible.
Running a B&G 25 as well on the back of the G400 to make sure I have enough flow when the Delta T pump is on the slowest speed. Each G series has a minimum flow to help prevent boiling, the newer ones come from the factory with a pump already installed just for circulation.
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It's almost scary to think how far advanced that stove is than what I have.