Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Central Boiler => Topic started by: Maple Mike on January 12, 2018, 07:07:04 PM
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Hello everyone, this is my first post.
So I have an e-classic 1400 that I bought new in 2010 and for the most part has been working great. This season I noticed a trickle of smoke from the chimney when it’s not running. Never did this before. When I open the firebox door I get blasted with so much thick white smoke. Again never did this before. The coals are glowing around the hole in the bottom and hollowing out the coal bed. So I’m assuming I have an air leak in the secondary air tube. I’ve checked the elbows and rubber hose and they look good, and the disc on top of the elbow is fine also. I pulled the refractory target and metal box out and everything looks great (I have installed the updated refractory that eliminates the 3 metal rods). Also replaced the firebox door gasket, reaction chamber door gasket and bypass door gasket.
Now to the creasote. The box the houses the solenoids is caked with creasote, so bad that it’s very difficult to open the door. The primary elbow and tube was almost half full of soft tar with some watery creasote. The secondary air tube had a little creasote but was of a drier form.
As far as performance, I can get reaction temps that average 1200-1400, and it gets there quickly. I’ve seen it as high as 1540 this year.
My wood is two years seasoned and all hardwood and load every 12hrs.
Anyone have any ideas on this air leak?
Sorry for being so long, but wanted to give as much info as I could
Thank you
Mike
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Hello everyone, this is my first post.
So I have an e-classic 1400 that I bought new in 2010 and for the most part has been working great. This season I noticed a trickle of smoke from the chimney when it’s not running. Never did this before. When I open the firebox door I get blasted with so much thick white smoke. Again never did this before. The coals are glowing around the hole in the bottom and hollowing out the coal bed. So I’m assuming I have an air leak in the secondary air tube. I’ve checked the elbows and rubber hose and they look good, and the disc on top of the elbow is fine also. I pulled the refractory target and metal box out and everything looks great (I have installed the updated refractory that eliminates the 3 metal rods). Also replaced the firebox door gasket, reaction chamber door gasket and bypass door gasket.
Now to the creasote. The box the houses the solenoids is caked with creasote, so bad that it’s very difficult to open the door. The primary elbow and tube was almost half full of soft tar with some watery creasote. The secondary air tube had a little creasote but was of a drier form.
As far as performance, I can get reaction temps that average 1200-1400, and it gets there quickly. I’ve seen it as high as 1540 this year.
My wood is two years seasoned and all hardwood and load every 12hrs.
Anyone have any ideas on this air leak?
Sorry for being so long, but wanted to give as much info as I could
Thank you
Mike
Mike, Welcome to the forum. I have the exact unit you have only I've had mine since 2011. Like you it's been running great only for a couple of minor problems; 1) the air channels in the firebox are coming apart so in the off season I'll have to make something to replace them. 2) I have noticed the something as you have regarding the smoke. It just started this year. I have also observed the creosote build up in the box where the solenoids are located. My reaction chamber temps are reaching around the same as yours. I'm not too concerned though. The water temp isn't creeping up when it's in idle, she's not overheating (temp over 200) and the wood usage seems to be about the same as years past. Are you seeing a water temp increase while it's in idle? That would be sure sign that's there is an air leak.
Where you located, Mike?
Roger
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I forgot to mention that the water temp will remain almost constant, or drop slowly, like 1degree per hour until it gets the surge of cold water from the return line, then it drops fast. It has overheated twice this season, temp was 202 and once last season where the firebox door didn’t close right and it read 222.
It also had 2 air channels that were cracked at the end of last season. It’s going to have to get some surgery this summer. It’s too bad that Cental Boiler doesn’t make an air channel kit for the 1400’s
Roger, I’m on River Rd in Bridgewater
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One thing to check is if one of the solenoids that open the air damper discs on the elbows is sticking open, maybe intermittently. That could allow some air in to create draft to cause the smoke and also let smoke / creosote into the control box.
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Welcome.
In my experience a downdraft unit can have a small amount of air leakage without overheating because they don't have a direct path to convect up the chimney. Sounds like either a small air leak or a choked down burn. That's when you get moisture. Almost would sound like the top (primary) air path is clogged and sending too much out the secondary?
But I'm not familiar with the details of your model. Roger is way ahead of me.
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I was in hurry this morning so I couldn't finish my thoughts. One of the observations I have made over time is if the ash/coal bed is too deep it'll promote creosote build up both in the firebox and the box where the solenoids live. This warm weather has made it difficult for me to maintain the correct depth, I'm way too deep. I had to remove some of the ash from the firebox this morning due to it being too deep. I only took out a couple of shovels full but it brought coal level below the primary air holes. And, make sure those air holes are open, nothing obstructing the air flow into the firebox. I clean mine once every 2 to 3 weeks depending on how deep the ash/coal bed is getting. If I leave it too deep for too long, I'll clean after a couple of weeks. And, don't forget to remove the cover off the chimney TEE to clear out any ash that may have collected in there, it can and will obstruct the chimney. Is this trickle of smoke continuous even after it cycles, or does it eventually go away? Mine will linger for about 5 minutes after it cycles then disappear. One thing to check, the front edge of the firebox where the door closes against. There may be a small amount of build up that's allowing air to infiltrate. Roger
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Mike
I've got an E1450, so it's not identical, but. Last year i started to see this (charcoal, creosote in electrical box) and thought nothing of it. Later, I had a boil-over. Turns out, the creosote was causing my upper solenoid to hang up, providing air for combustion even when there was no demand. At first, I suspect, it was just an accumulation where the solenoid flap rests on the pipe, giving just a little leakage, but eventually the flap didn't drop at all.
If this is what's getting you, it's easy to fix.
A couple of squirts of WD40 to the inside of the solenoid body, work it up and down a few dozen times, hit it with the WD again, work it again, until you can't get it to hang up at all.
I still get the occasional new appearance of creosote and coals, up to about 3/8" in size, in the electrical box; a couple of times I've heard a 'woof' when the furnace does a pulse, in between demands. I suspect what's happening is an accumulation of combustible gas in the firebox is suddenly mixed with a load of fresh air, and the available wood coals suddenly ignites the mix, resulting in a minor blast in the furnace which pushes 'stuff' back to the electrical box.
Blair
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a couple of times I've heard a 'woof' when the furnace does a pulse, in between demands. I suspect what's happening is an accumulation of combustible gas in the firebox is suddenly mixed with a load of fresh air, and the available wood coals suddenly ignites the mix, resulting in a minor blast in the furnace which pushes 'stuff' back to the electrical box.
Blair
I’ve had this exact thing happen multiple times, so when I added the upgraded stainless steel elbow I also added the spring hoping that it would eliminate it. Apparently that did not work.
Roger,
Everyday I take a shovel full or two of ash out of firebox. The first couple of years I had way too much ash/coal bed and the holes in firebox were getting plugged. Plus removing the old refractory lowered the depth making the holes more exposed and less plugged.
The smoke does diminish after 5-7 minutes. It’s the most noticeable after the first idle cycle after a full burn cycle, if that makes sense.
The firebox door gasket appears to be in good order with no leaks. I do have a little corrosion starting in the lower left corner of door opening. Doesn’t seem to be getting any bigger. No creosote running past the gasket.
One thing to check is if one of the solenoids that open the air damper discs on the elbows is sticking open, maybe intermittently. That could allow some air in to create draft to cause the smoke and also let smoke / creosote into the control box.
Heaterwood,
I do not believe the solenoids are stuck open as that would lead to a runaway fire. Not to say it hasn’t happened because it has. Thankfully it was on a weekend and my keen eye caught it before it overheated. I find myself always looking at the boiler through the window to see how it’s working. Guess I’m kinda weird like that
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Welcome Mike,
Small world- I live in Holderness. I have a 2009-2300 that has the same upgrades as yours. Anytime I’ve run into the problems your having, it’s been either the firebox door gasket leaking, pulse timer running too often or a hole in the intake elbow. Air is getting in somewhere.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
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Welcome Mike,
Small world- I live in Holderness. I have a 2009-2300 that has the same upgrades as yours. Anytime I’ve run into the problems your having, it’s been either the firebox door gasket leaking, pulse timer running too often or a hole in the intake elbow. Air is getting in somewhere.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
Hockeyguy, yah it’s a small world! You’re real close
Got home from work tonight and saw a steady stream of smoke coming from chimney, and the water temp was 194. My settings are 188-183. Went out at 9:00 to load it for the night and water temp was at 196 and after loading it was in high limit at 201. Turned up the thermostat to draw some heat out of boiler and will check before I go to bed.
This thing has been weird lately.
I am expecting delivery of a new secondary stainless elbow tomorrow so I will install and see what happens. If that doesn’t work then I’ll try a new door gasket and play around with different pulse timer settings.
Wish me luck
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Mike
That sounds very much like one of your solenoids is stuck open. Mine were intermittent, because of the amount of ash and creosote blown back into the cabinet. When it's doing that, but not in demand or pulse mode, open that back cabinet door and look at both valves. If you can slide a matchbook cover (geez, showing my age!) under either one, it's trouble. If either one is hung up, or resting on a chunk of creosote on the edge of the tube, you've got to get that sorted out. If that's not it, you've got some other air leak.
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The worse thing about air leaks is sometimes they are not obvious. Keep us posted when you find it, it will be interesting to know.
Earlier you commented that you're removing about a shovel or 2 of ash/coal from the firebox everyday. What kind of wood are burning? I put in a mix species of hardwood in varying sizes from 4 to 8 and sometimes 10 inches in diameter cut to 20 inches long. Depending on outdoor temp, I've been putting about 8 to 10 pieces for a 12 hour burn. I've had days when I had to wait 14 hours before adding wood for the night due to overfilling it in the morning. Roger
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I would also check to be sure the damper covers are dropping and resting flush on the primary and secondary elbows in the air box. I'd also check to me sure the bypass hatch in back of firebox is sealing well when closed. If creosote has built up around opening and it is not shutting tight that would provide air to feed the coals and also an opening for small stream of smoke to draw out the chimney. There is also a rope seal on that bypass opening that could be deteriorated allowing air passage? The owners manual shows it and how to change it out if necessary.
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Well I got the secondary stainless elbow last night. Got home too late last night so couldn’t install, will try tonight.
Mike
That sounds very much like one of your solenoids is stuck open. Mine were intermittent, because of the amount of ash and creosote blown back into the cabinet. When it's doing that, but not in demand or pulse mode, open that back cabinet door and look at both valves. If you can slide a matchbook cover (geez, showing my age!) under either one, it's trouble. If either one is hung up, or resting on a chunk of creosote on the edge of the tube, you've got to get that sorted out. If that's not it, you've got some other air leak.
When I install new elbow I’ll clean both eblow and disc on primary to make sure it seats good
The worse thing about air leaks is sometimes they are not obvious. Keep us posted when you find it, it will be interesting to know.
Earlier you commented that you're removing about a shovel or 2 of ash/coal from the firebox everyday. What kind of wood are burning? I put in a mix species of hardwood in varying sizes from 4 to 8 and sometimes 10 inches in diameter cut to 20 inches long. Depending on outdoor temp, I've been putting about 8 to 10 pieces for a 12 hour burn. I've had days when I had to wait 14 hours before adding wood for the night due to overfilling it in the morning. Roger
Mostly beech and white and yellow birch very little oak. I do have a small saw mill so I toss in a pine slab here and there.
Do you think I’m removing too much ash? I try to keep the ash depth to a minimum but maybe too low.
I load about the same amount of wood as you depending on outdoor temp. Sometimes I’m way offf on judging how much wood to put in.
I would also check to be sure the damper covers are dropping and resting flush on the primary and secondary elbows in the air box. I'd also check to me sure the bypass hatch in back of firebox is sealing well when closed. If creosote has built up around opening and it is not shutting tight that would provide air to feed the coals and also an opening for small stream of smoke to draw out the chimney. There is also a rope seal on that bypass opening that could be deteriorated allowing air passage? The owners manual shows it and how to change it out if necessary.
I did replace the bypass door gasket in November but have no clue how to check if it’s leaking air. It was badly deteriorated
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Mike, The times where I've completely overloaded the firebox and had too much of a coal/ash bed, I've simply loaded less than I previously did, or I would let it burn down a bit before adding more wood for the next 12 hour cycle. This warm spell (upper 20's) we're getting makes it difficult on me to put in less wood than I did when it was extremely cold, I'm afraid the fire will go out and I know it won't. It's a psychological thing with me. Roger
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Mike, The times where I've completely overloaded the firebox and had too much of a coal/ash bed, I've simply loaded less than I previously did, or I would let it burn down a bit before adding more wood for the next 12 hour cycle. This warm spell (upper 20's) we're getting makes it difficult on me to put in less wood than I did when it was extremely cold, I'm afraid the fire will go out and I know it won't. It's a psychological thing with me. Roger
Funny, I do the same thing. When temps hit 20 degrees after a prolonged subzero stretch, it takes me a couple days before I quit overloading the stove the wood.
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Just got home from work, we’ve been real busy so I haven’t had time to do anything with the boiler. Have to work for a few hours tomorrow morning then after that I plan on changing out the secondary elbow. I’m not feeding the boiler full tonight so that I can give it a full cleaning tomorrow.
When I ordered the the new stainless elbow I forgot to order the stainless disc, so I’ll have to fab something. Totally spaced it.
Anyway, thank you all for your advice
I will keep you all informed with my results
Thanks,
Mike
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Hello everyone, this is my first post.
So I have an e-classic 1400 that I bought new in 2010 and for the most part has been working great. This season I noticed a trickle of smoke from the chimney when it’s not running. Never did this before. When I open the firebox door I get blasted with so much thick white smoke. Again never did this before. The coals are glowing around the hole in the bottom and hollowing out the coal bed. So I’m assuming I have an air leak in the secondary air tube. I’ve checked the elbows and rubber hose and they look good, and the disc on top of the elbow is fine also. I pulled the refractory target and metal box out and everything looks great (I have installed the updated refractory that eliminates the 3 metal rods). Also replaced the firebox door gasket, reaction chamber door gasket and bypass door gasket.
Now to the creasote. The box the houses the solenoids is caked with creasote, so bad that it’s very difficult to open the door. The primary elbow and tube was almost half full of soft tar with some watery creasote. The secondary air tube had a little creasote but was of a drier form.
As far as performance, I can get reaction temps that average 1200-1400, and it gets there quickly. I’ve seen it as high as 1540 this year.
My wood is two years seasoned and all hardwood and load every 12hrs.
Anyone have any ideas on this air leak?
Sorry for being so long, but wanted to give as much info as I could
Thank you
Mike
Mike,
Where you located, Mike?
Roger
Where are you located Roger?
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Mike, The times where I've completely overloaded the firebox and had too much of a coal/ash bed, I've simply loaded less than I previously did, or I would let it burn down a bit before adding more wood for the next 12 hour cycle. This warm spell (upper 20's) we're getting makes it difficult on me to put in less wood than I did when it was extremely cold, I'm afraid the fire will go out and I know it won't. It's a psychological thing with me. Roger
Funny, I do the same thing. When temps hit 20 degrees after a prolonged subzero stretch, it takes me a couple days before I quit overloading the stove the wood.
You're lucky you're able to cut back after a couple of days, it lasts for at least a couple of weeks for me. Roger
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Well I finally got the new stainless secondary elbow installed and it still has an air leak. The original one was starting to corrode. I really thought that would’ve done the trick. So I gave the boiler a cleaning while it was off and I’ll just run it for the remainder of the season and change the firebox door gasket in the summer.
One thing I did notice is the factory cut on the new elbow where the solenoid plate makes contact was not perfectly flat. I could see daylight through it. I spent some time filing it so it sits flat now
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Mike - You asked where I'm from; I live in Enfield, NH., not too far from Dartmouth College.
Man, what a bummer, spend the money and time and it still leaks. I hope you find that leak sooner rather than later. Roger
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We just had the boiler smoking all week. Burned more wood than we should have and yesterday it got up to 200* with no real demand. New door seal so that was out and the bypass had a good seal and the reaction chamber door was fine. Even though the two solenoids were closing I played with them and watched the smoke go away. The secondary was clean and not a problem so I took the primary one off even though I had scrapped it out last week. I took it apart and cleaned it with a wire wheel and cleaned the solenoid damper door, it had some creosote on it but not to bad. Now no more smoke at idle, it was open enough to keep a low smolder going. Lots of creosote in the fire box. Once again I am paying for running pine that wasn't aged well. Next season I will have better fuel. I am aiming to have 20 cord so I can age some for 2 years