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Author Topic: need help sizing pump  (Read 6279 times)

jackel440

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need help sizing pump
« on: November 10, 2011, 05:03:19 PM »

I am trying to finally hook up the floor heat in my shop.
I got a quote from Radiantec ,as they are the ones who gave me my floor layout back in 04'
All I got from them was a "medium/high head" cast Iron pump
I am trying to find out which pump I need.I plan to go with a Grundfos pump as that is what is on the boiler ,and I have had great luck with them.Others I know running Tacos have not had such good luck.
My shop has 8 loops of 1/2" pex that are 250' long.
All just one zone so there is nothing complicated to it.
I can't figure out all this math trying to find out what the head pressures and stuff is.I got too much on my mind and just can't get it straight.So I thought I would ask if anyone here could help. ;)
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RSI

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 05:13:48 PM »

Are you going to use something to control the temperature of the water in the floor or just run it at the boiler temperature?
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jackel440

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2011, 05:21:12 PM »

I will have a tempering valve to keep the water around 120*.
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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 05:23:16 PM »

So you will have a pump for the floor and another to get water to the shop?
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jackel440

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 05:30:12 PM »

Yes I have a pump on the boiler sending hot water to the building.I will then have an heat xchanger so the systems aren't mixed.I plan to run glycol in my floor so if for some reason I have to shut it down there is no worrys of freezing.
Wow I am forgetting all kinds of important info tonight :bash:
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willieG

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 07:05:39 PM »

for plain water you need a pump that will have a head and GPM of about 10 so i think you should go a little bigger if you are using glycol.

you need about 10 gpm to keep your delta temp within reason and you will have about 9 feet of head on 1 loop of your pipe. from what i can read all loops are figures as one in this type of installation (i may be wrong)

it is said (again from what i read) that you should oversize your pump slightly for any fittings in your header or things like that

this info is just what i would call a starting point in your investigation as i am just an average guy with little to no knowledge of infloor heating other than what i read and helping the expert who installed mine
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willieG

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 07:21:47 PM »

if you are running your sytsem in the shop as a closed loop i would suggest something along the lines of  ..the glycol coming out of the exchanger to your tempering valve hot side..then to the pump with the "mixed" side of your tempering valve..then to your in floor header with all your loops. you will also have a return header...just after this header i would recomend a tee, and one line to the return to the exchanger and one line to the cold side of your tempering valve you should also include for an expansion tank somewhere in the system as well
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jackel440

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 07:44:13 PM »

if you are running your sytsem in the shop as a closed loop i would suggest something along the lines of  ..the glycol coming out of the exchanger to your tempering valve hot side..then to the pump with the "mixed" side of your tempering valve..then to your in floor header with all your loops. you will also have a return header...just after this header i would recomend a tee, and one line to the return to the exchanger and one line to the cold side of your tempering valve you should also include for an expansion tank somewhere in the system as well
yeah that is pretty much what i had layed out.I haven't bought any of my materials for the loop and valves and air eliminater. etc....
I am just wanting to get the right pump first.
I think the mixture of glycol will be a 50/50 mix.
Did you mean that there is 9' of head for each 250' loop of pipe.?or for all 8 loops of pipe?
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willieG

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 07:49:50 PM »

yeah that is pretty much what i had layed out.I haven't bought any of my materials for the loop and valves and air eliminater. etc....
I am just wanting to get the right pump first.
I think the mixture of glycol will be a 50/50 mix.
Did you mean that there is 9' of head for each 250' loop of pipe.?or for all 8 loops of pipe?
[/quote]

from what i read, if all loops are the same length you need only count the head for one loop
i am not sure how much you should upsize for the glycol in the system
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RSI

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 07:50:03 PM »

How many btu's do you think the building will take?
I would throw a 15-58 or an Alpha on it and see if it can handle it.

I could probably send you a loaner if you wanted to try it.
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willieG

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2011, 07:52:11 PM »

jackall the 10 gpm i suggested is the middle of the pump curve where it meets at 10 feet of head and 10 gpm
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jackel440

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2011, 07:55:12 PM »

How many btu's do you think the building will take?
I would throw a 15-58 or an Alpha on it and see if it can handle it.

I could probably send you a loaner if you wanted to try it.

Lol once again I don't know.Batting a thousand on this project.I forget what we calculated the heat loss would be yrs ago.
The shop is 40'x44' with 12'6" ceilings.2x6" walls with fiberglass batts.
I will have to try and figure that out tomorrow after work if I can get the time. :thumbup:
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jackel440

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2011, 07:56:44 PM »

jackall the 10 gpm i suggested is the middle of the pump curve where it meets at 10 feet of head and 10 gpm
What chart are you getting your info from?I wasn't having any luck trying to sort out what i needed
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willieG

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 08:01:30 PM »

my mistake on the number of loops jackall but the total still somes out to whati have posted 

All circulator pumps are typically sized based on the heat load and head loss (pressure drop) for a given zone.
 
 
 
Knowing the heat load (in BTU's) for a given zone, allows to calculate the required circulator pump's flow rate in gallons per minute (GPM).
 
 
 
For hot water hydronic or radiant heating applications, the following equation can be used:
 
 
 
GPM = 0.002*BTU/(Temperature Drop),
 
 
 
 
 
where Temperature Drop is the difference between supply and return temperatures in the system and GPM is the amount of flow the circulator must produce.
 
 
 
Since most of the radiant heating systems utilize a 20F temperature drop, the formula can be changed to:
 
 
 
1 GPM = 10,000 BTU/hr,
 
 
 
 
 
meaning that for every 10,000 BTU's of heat load the circulator must output a 1 gallon per minute flow.
 



Assuming that system calls for 100,000 BTU/hr, a circulator pump should have a minimum 10 Gallons Per Minute flow rate at a given pressure drop.
 
For snow melt systems with a 50/50 mix of glycol and water, the above equasion is slightly different:
 
 
 
1 GPM = 11,000 BTU/hr
 
The next step is to calculate the head loss, or pressure drop in the system.
Head loss is associated with friction of the water against the internal surface of the pipes/tubing in the hydronic or radiant heating system and restricts flow rate a circulator can produce.
 
 
 
Although radiant heat manifold and PEX tubing sizing are a different topic, let's assume, for example, that a manifold has 8 outlets with 1/2" PEX tubing installed at 300ft length per loop and the system calls for 72,000 BTU's.
 
 
 
Using the formula above, we can determine the flow rate required for our given zone: 72,000 / 10,000 = 7.2 GPM.
Flow rate through every selected circuit of the manifold equals Flow Rate divided by number of Circuits:
7.2 GPM / 8 circuits = 0.9 GPM per circuit (assuming that the circuits are equally balanced).
 
Using a Pressre Drop Table or Pressure Drop Chart, supplied by the PEX tubing manufacturer, a pressure drop per ft of tubing can be calculated at a given GPM flow rate.
 
 
 
NOTE: Pressure drop data supplied by manufacturers may be available both in PSI (lbs per square inch) and in foot (ft) of head.
 
For conversion, use the following equation: 1 psi = 0.434 ft of head (for fresh water).
 



In this example, pressure drop per 1 ft of 1/2" PEX tubing at 0.75 GPM flow rate would be approximately 0.03 ft of head).
Considering that each individual PEX tubing circuit is 300 ft long, pressure drop per circuit would be 0.03 x 300 = 9.0 ft of head.
 
 
 
Since PEX tubing circuits are in parallel to each other, pressure drop per circuit is always the same as the total zone pressure drop. So, the total pressure drop is: 9.0 ft of head.
 
 
 
 
 
We now have the complete specification for the circulator pump available: 7.2 GPM flow at 9.0 ft of head pressure drop.
 
It is important to understand that other components installed within a given zone (such as the radiant heat manifold itself, fittings, check valves, mixing valves, balancing valves, heat exchangers, etc.) also have to be considered when sizing a circulator pump. Pressure drop information is usually available in a form of technical specifications or submittal sheet supplied by the manufacturer.
 
Given real conditions, we may add extra 2 ft of head just in case, making pressure drop 11ft of head.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 08:04:45 PM by willieG »
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RSI

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Re: need help sizing pump
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2011, 08:06:21 PM »

Oh, that might size pump might be a little too small then. The 15-58's do really well heating a 4 loop basement floor but a building that big will probably need more GPM's to keep the water temp even.

Here is the curve for Grundfos pumps
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