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[whiteyford1]

Hi
I'm semi-retired from doing forensic investigations and expert witness testimony for failed materials. I still do some problem solving and build specialized testing equipment for the FAA.
Now I run a small welding & fabrication business and have spent some time inside some late model E 08 - 2010 Central Boilers.  I was called in to do field repairs, (5 holes in 1, 4in another) and found horrid looking steel. Honestly I have 140 year old Damascus pipe that’s been buried in the dirt at my cemetery that looks better the than that fire box plate. I cut a sample to send to a lab and I'll tell your right now it’s not boiler plate. Regardless of the results I"ll post them. However the plate is just part of the puzzle I'm working on. I've spent a few years developing my own version of a wood gas stove, so the more data I can collect the better.

 I'm developing a hypothesis and would ask that anyone that has pics to share and brief details about their Central boiler issues to please post them here.

I put some of my prototype wood boilers out in 2011, I'm very interested in developing a wood gas boiler that can be used and abused like my old Taylor incinerator!
 
I understand stressing the low moisture content fuel to customers, and a few of the dos and don’ts, but really! Can it be that hard to build a good wood gas boiler?

YES & no,  I'm not here to say folks are intentionally getting ripped off, but what scares me is that crummy warranty and refusing to stand behind premature failure. I guess that CB has no idea what's going on with their boilers and choose to go on the offensive with customers. 2 year old boilers with cracked welds should be few and far between. However when their steel exhibits major section loss,(100%) 2 years into service then blame the customer, I tend to get P Od. Rather than bash and blame I plan to get to the bottom of this. Maybe I'll be building the best gasification stove around in 5 years since CB is in a sink r swim situ right now. Who can afford a new 10K stove every 3 years?

I feel confident that if you already have one of these your stuck with a turd, even if the guy that sold it to you is the only one that loads and maintains it:)
Thank you
Randy Wimer
President of Lincoln Avenue Fabricators LLC


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[victor6deep]

Pretty much don't buy the bragged #1 so called stove. Same reason I didn't get a Central Cracker.

[dwneast77]

whiteyford1 - Very interesting.  I have the 2008 model E-2300.  Last year I had 2 small leaks in corners.  But I see a lot of pitting in the walls and ceiling of the firebox.  A friend of mine has the same one and had to replace a large portion of the right side wall of the firebox last year.  My biggest fail, so far, is the primary air channel.  I ended up cutting out the back portion of the channel and installing my own design made of pipe and easily removable.  I hope to get a few more years out of it.  I'll get a few pictures put together maybe tomorrow.  I'm kind of suprised there has not been a class action lawsuit on this model. 

[rexdropssticks]

a good friend of mine bought a cb 2 years ago after replacing a leaky 3year old owb. he's not going to be happy abount all the leak issues with cb. i myself have a 3 year old leaky shaver that they won't warranty

[whiteyford1]

I want to thank you all for the PMs and interest.
After reviewing my original post it appears I'm gunning for CB. The truth is I'm familiar with the internal configuration of the water tank and assume flow characteristics for the CB units. I have repaired others that were less than two years old, they were stainless fire boxes. Actually I'm interested in any stove info available, mainly premature scaling and firebox failure. If you happen to have a boiler over 20 years old {like me} perhaps you can share your details.
I just reviewed CB material comparison, carbon steel vs stainless. The stainless grades CB chooses to make comparisons with would be my last choice as well. There are other austenitic SS better suited for the application but I'm not on Team stainless yet.
As for the foam insulation CB touts, it didn't exist just a few years ago when I was on top of this stuff. As an engineer we used a mllion dollars worth of the stuff on I 80 for slab stabilization. At the time 90% closed cell performance was considered great,,,that means 10% is available for H2o

[Scott7m]

The steel they show in there comparison is only 16 guage stainless from a hardy furnace.  Stress corrosion is a possibility but there are many many hardy's over 20 years old in operation today. Empyre uses the same 304 in there deluxe line of stoves only they use 304 that is around 1/8" thick.  They've been around a long time and seem to be tough as nails.  There are many companies using 409 stainless, heatmaster, heatmor, and a couple other.  Heatmaster has been around a good while, I've heard of hardly any issues with rusting or scaling in those, heatmor has also been around even longer using 304.  I've saw several of them over 20 years old still going strong. 

[whiteyford1]

Hi Scott
One of my prototype stoves replaced  a 6 year old Hardy, sorry. I went to repair the Hardy and I could poke my hammer through the fire box in 8 places. It was in bad shape.
What most folks don't realize is that steels, including most stainless steels do not have to be remelted to alter their atomic lattice, crystal formation and grain size. Certain steels are affected at very low temps. Without getting into the woods to far, some basic steel making goes back to packing iron ore in charcoal, (hydrocarbon) and heating at high temps, (More Hydrocarbon) to effect the flow of carbon into the ore and let impurities escape. For instance, a particular steel and atmosphere inside  a firebox can either add or diffuse the carbon content within a 300f degree range. So let's say a fire box goes through this cycle a thousand times in 2-3 years. What you end up with is not what you started with! The 309 and 310 (no L grades) are near the top of my materials list.
Thank you Randy

[victor6deep]

Hi Scott
One of my prototype stoves replaced  a 6 year old Hardy, sorry. I went to repair the Hardy and I could poke my hammer through the fire box in 8 places. It was in bad shape.
What most folks don't realize is that steels, including most stainless steels do not have to be remelted to alter their atomic lattice, crystal formation and grain size. Certain steels are affected at very low temps. Without getting into the woods to far, some basic steel making goes back to packing iron ore in charcoal, (hydrocarbon) and heating at high temps, (More Hydrocarbon) to effect the flow of carbon into the ore and let impurities escape. For instance, a particular steel and atmosphere inside  a firebox can either add or diffuse the carbon content within a 300f degree range. So let's say a fire box goes through this cycle a thousand times in 2-3 years. What you end up with is not what you started with! The 309 and 310 (no L grades) are near the top of my materials list.
Thank you Randy


Is a36 grade carbon steel any good for these stoves?

[Scott7m]

Hi Scott
One of my prototype stoves replaced  a 6 year old Hardy, sorry. I went to repair the Hardy and I could poke my hammer through the fire box in 8 places. It was in bad shape.
What most folks don't realize is that steels, including most stainless steels do not have to be remelted to alter their atomic lattice, crystal formation and grain size. Certain steels are affected at very low temps. Without getting into the woods to far, some basic steel making goes back to packing iron ore in charcoal, (hydrocarbon) and heating at high temps, (More Hydrocarbon) to effect the flow of carbon into the ore and let impurities escape. For instance, a particular steel and atmosphere inside  a firebox can either add or diffuse the carbon content within a 300f degree range. So let's say a fire box goes through this cycle a thousand times in 2-3 years. What you end up with is not what you started with! The 309 and 310 (no L grades) are near the top of my materials list.
Thank you Randy

Sorry?  I'm just saying there are absolutely Thousands of them out there that have been basically trouble free.  Yes there are some that do fail as with anything man made, and some companies have had far more failures than others.  Replacing one hardy doesn't mean there all junk. 

Also, I'm not trying to argue with you that the science behind what your saying is wrong, because I know that some if it is true, and I suspect the parts I don't know is truth are also facts. 

I just don't think things are as and as you depict as far as the failures, yes there are some, and like I said some have far more than others.  A lot of failures are brought on by the customer, that's why there is more and more rquiring primary and secondary loops or thermostatic valves keeping return temps proper.

[whiteyford1]

Hi Scott
Sorry I didn't mean to step on your toes there, I'm very open minded and always open to constructive debate. The facts you've presented are part of the reason I'm on here. What I'm suggesting is the new gassers create a different fire box atmosphere that directly impacts the material in a negative way. Never positive.
 Why??? That's where my questions begin? Everything from the steel manufacturing process, grade, alloy content, quenching solution, heat affectected weld zones, hydrogen embritlement, diffusion, deformation, segregation and hydrocarbon atmospheres effects come to mind. Finally the end users habits. I'm curious, where is the inconsistency? Obviously, the end user is to blame??? currently. Wouldn't it be great to tell a customer yea, 10 -15 years if you don't take care of it double that if ya do.       
Instead of 2 and 6.

Please bear with me as I get up to speed on the industry and subject.
 Thank you
Randy

[Scott7m]

Hi Scott
Sorry I didn't mean to step on your toes there, I'm very open minded and always open to constructive debate. The facts you"ve presented are part of the reason I'm on here. What I'm suggesting is the new gassers create a different fire box atmosphere that directly impacts the material in a negative way. Never positive.
 Why??? That's where my questions begin? Everything from the steel manufacturing process, grade, alloy content, quenching solution, heat affectected weld zones, hydrogen embritlement, diffusion, deformation, segregation and hydrocarbon atmospheres effects come to mind. Finally the end users habits. I'm curious, where is the inconsistency? Obviously, the end user is to blame??? currently. Wouldn't it be great to tell a customer yea, 10 -15 years if you don't take care of it double that if ya do.       
Instead of 2 and 6.

Please bear with me as I get up to speed on the industry and subject.
 Thank you
Randy

Ur not stepping on my toes, I know that there are a lot of issues with gasification furnaces in general.  It's a whole other animal.  When a stove fails in only a couple years, it is rarely the users fault. 

I saw 1 stove fail in less than a year on a customer heating his swimming pool, it was a gassifier but he had return water temps coming back the exact temperature as his pool water was, it was literally raining inside his firebox.


Then there is the other side of this debate, these larger companies know that they "could" build a better product, but they know they have to build something within a price range, so I think they honestly build the stove to the best of the ability to keep the price range where it needs to be.  The 2300 for example, I don't feel that was anything intentional, I doubt you do either.  There was a lot of unforeseen issues there. 

I think the added costs of building a better stove could easily push prices to where it simply wasn't feasible for the consumer level, you remind me of my dad who was involved with the rail road and govt specs and he fails to realize that consumer level products can't be made to the quality of an industrial unit or it would never be affordable.  I'm not saying you think exactly like him lol but I think the changes your thinking would build a better stove, but at what cost???   

If you were to go on your own, you better have money to burn because to get your products through testing from ul and the EPA costs a boo coo, and even then you have be able to compete with the hype, propaganda, and mass advertising of some of the ones who have been around forever.  Selling your ideas may be a better idea, but if the company can't see it on there bottom line, there not goin to care one way or the other. 

I see instances all the time where I "know" what would work better and why, but to convince someone else that when most things on the Internet tell them differently, that's a Job lol

Look forward to hearing your ideas

[johnybcold]

Just let me know when you figure it out :-)

[whiteyford1]

Hi Johny
Some seek knowledge of a wise man, others seek what the wise man seeks.
Which one are you?
 
Have an awesome day!
Randy

[victor6deep]

Just let me know when you figure it out :-)

This guy is very smart.

[Scott7m]

This is gettin ready to go to a whole other level....  It ain't gonna be purdy...