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1
Home Made / Re: Opinions and information
« on: November 18, 2014, 05:32:14 PM »... that heat stratification causes the hot water to rise, so you should pull from the top (like you would on a DHW heater)That's whaqt makes the most sense to me too, but the one I have now pulls off the bottom because "It makes for a more balanced water jacket". I'd like to hear more discussion about this!
And I agree about the pumps failing at the worst time. I keep forgetting to get a spare for just such an occasion too.
2
Home Made / Opinions and information
« on: November 18, 2014, 10:11:57 AM »
There will probably be as many different opinions on my questions as there are snowflakes in a snowstorm, but I gotta start somewhere!
Last year I bought a Hawken OWB as I didn't have enough time to build my firewood processor AND an OWB, and I could afford to buy an OWB but not a processor, so I concentrated on the processor. For those of you interested, the Hawken has performed as they said it would altho it chews thru the wood pretty fast. That's understandable tho, considering it's heating upwards of 10,000 UN-insulated square feet. I went thru about 20 cords last season from the second week of January until the first day of May.
Anyways, I'm going to build the next OWB that I will use to heat my shop, office and a new living area that has yet to be built. My questions are general in scope:
1) How much bigger in diameter should the water jacket be in comparison to the firebox?
A lot of the builds I see, and some of the manufactured units as well, have the water jacket only 6 to 8 inches bigger around than the firebox. I would think the more water, the better, but my thinking may be flawed in this regard.
2) Is it better to pull the heated water off the top of the OWB or the bottom?
Again, I have seen both methods used in both the home made and manufactured OWB's.
3) Should the chimney pipe come out the top of the OWB, (vertically), or out the back, (horizontally to a 'tee', THEN to the vertical position)?
I'm sure the answer to these questions will lead me to MORE questions, but I'll keep it short for now.
I appreciate any of you taking the time to give me your insights!
Last year I bought a Hawken OWB as I didn't have enough time to build my firewood processor AND an OWB, and I could afford to buy an OWB but not a processor, so I concentrated on the processor. For those of you interested, the Hawken has performed as they said it would altho it chews thru the wood pretty fast. That's understandable tho, considering it's heating upwards of 10,000 UN-insulated square feet. I went thru about 20 cords last season from the second week of January until the first day of May.
Anyways, I'm going to build the next OWB that I will use to heat my shop, office and a new living area that has yet to be built. My questions are general in scope:
1) How much bigger in diameter should the water jacket be in comparison to the firebox?
A lot of the builds I see, and some of the manufactured units as well, have the water jacket only 6 to 8 inches bigger around than the firebox. I would think the more water, the better, but my thinking may be flawed in this regard.
2) Is it better to pull the heated water off the top of the OWB or the bottom?
Again, I have seen both methods used in both the home made and manufactured OWB's.
3) Should the chimney pipe come out the top of the OWB, (vertically), or out the back, (horizontally to a 'tee', THEN to the vertical position)?
I'm sure the answer to these questions will lead me to MORE questions, but I'll keep it short for now.
I appreciate any of you taking the time to give me your insights!
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: My wood furnace was a mistake/ Intro
« on: March 07, 2014, 05:56:44 AM »
Don't listen to these guys! That thing is JUNK! You'll end up having a stroke or a heart attack worrying about it.
Give me your address and I'll come take it off your hands before it gives you any more trouble. AND, I won't even charge you anything!
You're welcome.
Give me your address and I'll come take it off your hands before it gives you any more trouble. AND, I won't even charge you anything!
You're welcome.
4
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: I'm looking for a good brand
« on: January 30, 2014, 06:59:10 PM »Three years ago I purchased an outdoor wood boiler. It was a start up company out of Grand Rapids MI, and I'm now having regrets.Could you tell us who that company was/is? I didn't realize there was one in GR besides the one that makes HUGE commercial type log boi... uh, I mean big ones! Being in Kalamazoo, I'm curious who is around this area.
To answer your question; Central Boiler makes a good unit. I dislike them myself, but that's because I'm an old, stuck in my ways welder and I don't like some of the things they do. That said, I have several friends who have them and love them. They've had no issues with them even tho one of them is pushing 20 years old. Portage and Main is an excellent unit too. Unfortunately, the rep in this area of Michigan is a ... well, he could be more attentive. Ridgewood is another good unit, made here in Michigan. I might have one of them if they made one big enough for my application. Heatmaster is also good, despite their use of stainless steel in the firebox. Again, it's that old welder thing!
I have a Hawken. So far, I like it. The main reasons I bought it were, 1) it was big enough, 2) it was ultra simple - no electronics, 3) I was able to meet the owners of the company and they answered ALL of my questions, (even tho it might not have been in their best interests on a couple of them), and they allowed me to have free run of their manufacturing facility for a couple hours talking to their employees and watch their processes, and finally, 4) if this thing ain't all they said it was, and they won't MAKE it all they said it was, I can take an hour trip and back it thru their front office window!
If I had it to do all over again, I might do a little business with one of the fine people right here on this forum!
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: how much wood how often on these cold days and nights?
« on: January 28, 2014, 06:31:04 PM »
Single digit temps will get me an empty firebox in about 8-10 hours. Teens and above I can get 12.
6
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: PELLET USE MAXIM 250
« on: January 28, 2014, 01:15:28 PM »
Scott's right! My neighbor up the street catches all the chips that come off my saw bar on my firewood processor, grinds them up and makes his own pellets. Also makes them from tree service wood chips as well as alfalfa waste. Takes him a while because he bought a real small grinder and mill, but it works for him.
7
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Hard to decide which burner to get.
« on: January 28, 2014, 01:10:48 PM »I believe there are a lot of good stoves on the market, and im my personal opinion, not real crazy about Hawken.Could you elaborate on that a bit Scott? I'm not challenging you're opinion but I'm interested in what I may have missed. I'm not real crazy about their gasification units, mainly from what I've seen first hand and read about them. But their non-gassers are about as simple as it gets, which is why I bought one. Now with that said, had I know of you back a year ago, I may have ended up doing business with you instead. I may have even considered a Heatmaster despite my dislike of the use of stainless in an OWB!
8
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: For all those Newbies Looking for a boiler
« on: January 28, 2014, 01:03:12 PM »I really think this has gotten out of hand. Just a simple post about how happy I am. If you take that I'm bashing P&M I was making a statement about computer vs non computer. In my eyes I like it better. My post was in no means a personal slam slimjim.No, I don't think it was a PERSONAL slam. I think it was an arrogant and generalized slam against everything and everybody that didn't have the make and model of OWB that you have, in essence proclaiming in an arrogant and condescending way that anyone who doesn't have your preference in OWB's to be of lower intellect than yourself.
... and comment professionallyLike you did?
If you guys are really that upset then cancel my account with this forum.Works for me.
... the truth is there are lots of good units, but no perfect units anywhere to be found.That's because I haven't made one yet!
9
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: For all those Newbies Looking for a boiler
« on: January 28, 2014, 06:43:14 AM »I just cant help but see all the posts about what outdoor boiler to buy. Recently I purchased an E2400 from Central Boiler. This unit takes care of everything. I own a 2800 sq ft home in New Hampshire and have had the unit running since October. Not once did this unit fail me or shutdown. It provides no problem as the computer runs everything. Sure there is creosote but this thing will even burn non seasoned wood if mixed in with some dry stuff. Unit never gave me a lick of trouble. So those who are looking for a boiler this is the unit. Now I see constant threads on other boilers but have to ask why would you buy a different brand for the same money and have less features than this one has. Not to bash, but I came real close to buying the Portage And Main optimizer 250. Actually,had a deposit for delivery on it. After hearing all the problems and so called "Learning Curve" Im glad I didnt. You shouldnt have to spend 14000 on a unit and have problems like I see on these threads. Sorry folks, but CENTRAL BOILER is the only way to go. E2400 will eat the competition. By the way Farmer 4 Hire in Conway NH is the man and I would recommend him to anyone. By the way a normal winter would run me 5K in propane and I have recently spent only $60.00 dollars for my Rinnai on demand unit. Have a great dayI've met some equally single-minded, ignorant people as you in my life, but I can't remember when. If you REALLY understood your OWB, you'd realize that no matter who the manufacturer is, it ain't rocket science. I think most of the OWB's out there are fine units and the problems people have with them stem from either the way they use them or the wood they're burning. And as far as cost goes, the way YOU think, if you spent 14 grand, you got screwed. I installed my boiler, which is heating a tad over 10,000 sf, for less than $13,000 COMPLETE. Your system cost you $5 a sf. Mine was only $1.30.
10
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Pump speed and wood savings?
« on: January 22, 2014, 04:55:51 PM »Pump speed or water flow has very little to do with wood consumption...I've read enough of your posts to trust your advice, but I'm wondering if the pump speed was too low, and the water returning to the OWB was cooler than with a fast pump speed, would more wood be burned trying to heat up the cooler water?
Also, what exactly, (in terms an idiot like me can unnerstand!), is 'delta T'?
11
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: down to two...advice please
« on: January 20, 2014, 03:17:06 PM »
I think a lot of OWB's are like that. When the fan is running on mine, I can only see heat waves coming from the stack. The only time it smokes is when it's 'idling' or when I first fill it with a fresh load of wood.
12
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Underground lines waterlogged
« on: January 20, 2014, 03:13:57 PM »
I looked at Earth products and really liked them. The reason I went with a Hawken is because they are manufactured locally, about 60 miles north of where I live here in Michigan. I wanted to know if I had a problem with my OWB, and they weren't willing to work with me to resolve it, or worse yet, failed to return my calls, I could haul it back up there and put it thru their office window! It wouldn't get me my money back but it would sure make me feel a lot better!
13
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Need help (long)
« on: January 20, 2014, 03:02:03 PM »
I don't know how much I trust the IR temp gauges for reading pex line temps. What I've found with my IR is that the surface you are aiming the thing at makes a huge difference in the reading. For example, the exhaust stack on my oil burner is partly galvanized and partly a flat black pipe. With the burner running I can get a temp of 110 degrees on the glavanized portion while one foot from it on the black pipe I'll get 160 degrees. When I lay the IR gun right on the pex line, I can get a difference of as much as 20 degrees just by slightly moving the IR gun around, all the while holding it directly on the pex.
I think the 20 degree difference that you're seeing between the OWB 'out' and 'in' lines is a good thing. From what I've read here, 20 degrees is a good differential temperature between feed and return lines.
As for my OWB, I have a Hawken, and because they pull the water off the bottom of the boiler, I get roughly a 165 degree reading at the metal outlet right at the back of the tank. I say 'roughly' because I'm using the IR gun and the fittings before the pump are painted a semi-glossy black color. One foot down the line, right after the pump and on the pex line, I'll get a 155 degree reading. There is NO way I'm losing 10 degrees in one foot!
Assuming the 165 degree reading is correct, which I assume is close because the boiler is set to shut off at 180 and the aquastat is at the top of the tank, I am getting adequate heat for the water to air heat exchanger in the building with forced hot air heat. It will only heat the building to 65 degrees when it is 0 degrees outside with a stiff wind, but the oil system wouldn't even do that much, so I'm happy with that.
The other outlet on the OWB feeds the main house, a 12 room, uninsulated old house that has hat water baseboard heat. The OWB runs a LOT to keep up with it, but it maintains the old oil boiler at 150 degrees even when all the zones, (6), are calling for heat. So again, I'm happy with that.
I'll add that the main house is 230 feet from the OWB and the other building is 137 feet. And both systems have a TON of 90 degree elbows on the pex lines because of space limitations.
My point is that I *think* 160-ish degrees of OWB water should be enough to heat what needs to be heated as long as the original heat system is sized correctly too. That's the problem in the first building I described; the forced hot air oil system isn't big enough to move enough air to heat the space we need to heat in the first place, so I'm not sure how the OWB is doing it!
My other point, (if I actually have one!), is not to trust the IR temperature guns. I think they're fine for rough readings, and maybe a $300 unit would be more precise, but the $50 ones like I have are not all that accurate. I'd like to get something with a probe that I can actually lay on a pipe and get a good reading.
I think the 20 degree difference that you're seeing between the OWB 'out' and 'in' lines is a good thing. From what I've read here, 20 degrees is a good differential temperature between feed and return lines.
As for my OWB, I have a Hawken, and because they pull the water off the bottom of the boiler, I get roughly a 165 degree reading at the metal outlet right at the back of the tank. I say 'roughly' because I'm using the IR gun and the fittings before the pump are painted a semi-glossy black color. One foot down the line, right after the pump and on the pex line, I'll get a 155 degree reading. There is NO way I'm losing 10 degrees in one foot!
Assuming the 165 degree reading is correct, which I assume is close because the boiler is set to shut off at 180 and the aquastat is at the top of the tank, I am getting adequate heat for the water to air heat exchanger in the building with forced hot air heat. It will only heat the building to 65 degrees when it is 0 degrees outside with a stiff wind, but the oil system wouldn't even do that much, so I'm happy with that.
The other outlet on the OWB feeds the main house, a 12 room, uninsulated old house that has hat water baseboard heat. The OWB runs a LOT to keep up with it, but it maintains the old oil boiler at 150 degrees even when all the zones, (6), are calling for heat. So again, I'm happy with that.
I'll add that the main house is 230 feet from the OWB and the other building is 137 feet. And both systems have a TON of 90 degree elbows on the pex lines because of space limitations.
My point is that I *think* 160-ish degrees of OWB water should be enough to heat what needs to be heated as long as the original heat system is sized correctly too. That's the problem in the first building I described; the forced hot air oil system isn't big enough to move enough air to heat the space we need to heat in the first place, so I'm not sure how the OWB is doing it!
My other point, (if I actually have one!), is not to trust the IR temperature guns. I think they're fine for rough readings, and maybe a $300 unit would be more precise, but the $50 ones like I have are not all that accurate. I'd like to get something with a probe that I can actually lay on a pipe and get a good reading.
14
Hawken Energy, support only / Re: Pleased with Hawken?
« on: January 14, 2014, 08:19:21 AM »Schavis,
Sorry for your situation. I do have an idea which would allow you to heat your home with your current boiler. A popular method in Europe is the large water heat storage system. What they do is use wood gassification boilers to heat large insulated water store to 180 degrees and then use the hot water off of this storage for an extended period of time depending on the size. A popular size is 1000 gallons but any extra tank capacity would help you a lot. Your BTU load that the house require obviously won't change but you will be able to use the boiler to build this water store up to temperature and let it go out after it has reached temp until the house brings the water temp in the tank down to a level that it won't sufficiently heat the house any longer. After that you fire the boiler again for a period of time(however long it takes to bring the tank to temp). A popular storage tank is old 500 gallon propane tanks. You can buy these for a reasonable price and then have them sprayfoamed for insulation. I know this sounds like a big project and I know that you wish that you had gotten a larger boiler but if getting a different boiler is not in the cards this would be a way to make your system actually work for you.
I've heard this works really well too. I'd give it a shot before I spent money on another boiler.
15
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: why doesnt the administrators block shannonpi??
« on: January 14, 2014, 08:15:12 AM »
If they'd screen each new member and manually approve each one, they wouldn't get on here in the first place. I do that on my own board as well as another that I'm an admin on. Works very well.