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Author Topic: Ton=?cord  (Read 10834 times)

big don

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2015, 06:40:42 PM »

JD Thanks for your reply.  I agree whole heartly with that last paragraph you wrote---I live in Va country and am very concerned in the damage that is happening to my well water from all this fracking.  Where do you live?
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JDfarmer

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2015, 09:39:23 PM »

Northern Ohio farm. Francking land is not far.
I was just in Germany, where the Europeans as so concerned about switching to clean heat and electric. So, I was sitting on the plane and it so happened that the system designer and manager for the northern Germany power grid was sitting next to me. So we were talking, I guess the German government spent millions switching and subsidizing everyone over there to change to solar power and gas heat. Now 100% natural gas comes from the Russians, why are cutting supply because that is what they do time to time. As for electric an average german house hold 10 years ago paid E300 for power. Now that it is all solar, last year's stats were E287 per house hold. So, he said why do you think that it only dropped E13? That's right taxes. To pay for all the government subsidies to switching to solar, the state had to apply massive taxes to everyone. So, now even if you are not using power, you have to pay E190 per month of taxes.
Also, now they have windmills for power out at sea and on land. Because there is such a fluctuation in wind speed, their power grids are getting overloaded 3-6 times a month he said. They have been giving free power to many factories at night so they can take the load off of the lines. So, now they spent all this money to go green, and now they have to give power away for free. And in return the companies since they get power for free at night (some at least) are now have more night shifts so now workers have to work 10pm-6am.
How screwed up is that? And that is the model country for some governments.
Now, I was in Russia last year too. I go yearly for charity work at an orphanage. They heat all the buildings for the orphanage with boilers. They have an awesome system. They have wood, coal, propane, oil boilers all next to each other separated by brick walls. They burn what ever is cheaper. No taxes, no permits, no nothing. They heat the entire orphanage for 300 kids for about $80 per month.
I grew up with Russian "peace" time boilers in Eastern Europa. They were from before WWII; peace time. They are still running them over there.
I modified my NCB250 coal according to the set up I am used to. I get at least 20% more out of my boiler, but I had to make some modification to the insulation and some to the fire box. I think the boilers sold now days are good, but lot of them leak a lot of heat.
I use the laser temp gun to check for leaks and insulate it. I put fire bricks on the top of the boiler for insulation, and I have a steal place in front of the stack inside the fire box so less heat runs out the stack. Works pretty good for me.
Most Russian boilers have a double door which I like. The inside had fire brick lining, and another insulated one outside of that. I like that set up, because no creosote builds up around the seal of the outside door that messes up the seal. Plus even more heat stays in with double doors. My NCB door is insulted I guess, but it still reads 95F on the outside. It could be better I think, so I am adding a second door this spring inside the fire box, like I am used to. NCB also stands on legs and looses a ton of heat to the ground. I put bricks all around the boiler, and I noticed last year when I did that that when the boiler is in idle even in -25F wind chill, the water temp stays the same for hours. I am 130 yards from the house, 9 feet deep lines. Before I had the bricks in idle my boiler temp dropped about 1F every 20 min in -25F.
Anyway, that's what I have as for coal and wood combo. Good luck with it.
 
Oh I forgot, western Europeans got rid of all their fireplaces when it all went green. Guess what is one of the biggest export items in Russia and Scandinavia right now to Western Europe? That's right. Fireplaces and stoves. People want to go back to burning wood and coal, which is against our clean air act. Messed up ,my friend.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 09:44:36 PM by JDfarmer »
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JDfarmer

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2015, 09:49:34 PM »

"European companies are clearcutting North Carolina forests in order to make wood pellets to send back home as heating fuel "

Would you believe European companies are getting carbon credits for burning America’s forests?

Reading in the Wall Street Journal this morning about how European companies are clearcutting North Carolina forests in order to make wood pellets to send back home as heating fuel reminded me of just how insane the global green movement has become.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/05/28/why-burning-american-forests-to-heat-european-homes-is-as-crazy-as-it-sounds/

Here’s the cost ranking of basic heating fuels to the average residential customer in the United States, as determined by EIA, per million Britsh Thermal Units of energy content (for reference, 1 Btu is about as much heat produced by burning a single wooden match).

Natural Gas: $7.20 per mmBtu

Coal (Anthracite): $8 per mmBtu

Wood: $9.10 per mmBtu

Wood pellets: $15.20 per mmBtu

Propane: $26.70

Fuel Oil: $29 per mmBtu

Kerosene: $32.70 per mmBtu


Electricity: $34.30 per mmBtu

Those figures were just for the cost of getting the raw fuel to your home and show that natural gas is far and away the most cost effective energy source. But it’s not enough to just look at the cost of the raw fuel. To have a legitimate comparison we have to take into account the efficiencies of the furnaces and boilers that turn the fuel into heat.

The most efficient (approaching 100%) are electric baseboard heaters and unvented natural gas burners. The lowest efficiencies are found in wood-burning stoves — 63% for a non-catalytic heater, 72% for a catalytic heater and 78% for a pellet stove. Coal-burning furances have a 75% efficiency. Heater efficiency is comparable to fuel efficiency in a car. All things equal, you’d be better off paying $5 a gallon to drive a car that got 25 mpg versus paying $2.50 a gallon to fill a car that only got 10 mpg.

So taking into account furnace efficiencies, here’s the ranking of heating sources by what the average American pays to actually get the heat into your house:

Natural gas: $8.80 per mmBtu

Coal: $10.70 per mmBtu

Wood (catalytic heater): $12.60 per mmBtu

Wood (pellet stove): $19.40 per mmBtu

Propane: $34.20 per mmBtu

Electricity: $34.50 per mmBtu

Fuel Oil: $37.10 per mmBtu

Kerosene: $40.80 per mmBtu
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 09:53:23 PM by JDfarmer »
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JDfarmer

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2015, 09:55:49 PM »

"U.S. wood pellet exports double in 2013 in response to growing European demand."
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=16391

Exporting wood 4500mi away, what a ridicules world. It's hardly worth hauling wood from two counties over now we are exporting wood to Europe because they messed up their world for green energy, and they can't get along with Russia who they rely on 100% for natural gas.
I bet, the more we export the more expensive and scarce wood will be here. Now, sure, there is a lot of it, but export doubled in 1 year, and we are closing coal mines. Not a promising combination.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 10:01:14 PM by JDfarmer »
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atvalaska

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2015, 11:11:30 PM »

that is some sad chit............. :bash:

slimjim

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2015, 03:14:41 AM »

GREAT DISCUSSION!!!!!   One factor I don't see represented on the list is independence, to me this is more important than any other factor, another factor would be gassers, most are truly in the 80% + range for efficiency, why is that not listed?
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mtoll

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2015, 09:24:50 AM »

JDFarmer, just started to burn only coal today. Like the ideal to put coal down the center and small amount of wood on the sides. Guess Ill see how that works.
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JDfarmer

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2015, 09:27:24 AM »

Good point Jim. I am not sure why they didn't list gases. I think they were going back a few years to survey price, and how much it cost to get BTU from different source. There is probably a great range in price in different part of the country. Further from Texas the higher the price for propane. Here it was almost $5 last winter.
I think the fact the Europeans are now buying american wood to heat with wood palete, after spending millions getting rid of wood and coal burners and coal power plants, just prove to you how stupid it is not to use natural resource abundant on your back yard.
Also, proves to you what happens with government programs and regulations. After you spend millions you go back the way things were years ago.
Let's not do that in the US please and thank you.
I think we have to be careful exporting wood to a continent of 742Million people that is the double of the US. It takes like 80 years to grow an oak tree. Even black locus 10 years or so. Next thing we wake up to is that there is a wood shortage and wood tax, and you need wood cutting, wood storing, and wood handling tax. These taxes do exist in Europa. That is why it's cheaper for them to import from the US. Entire Scandinavia is one large forest, yet it doesn't seem to be economical for them to harvest wood due to 28% sales tax. Germany has 26% sales tax plus all other taxes. I was just there; I saw a cord of wood for $450-550!!! on the country side in many places.
Gosh I'd be a millionaire living in the woods :)
With the gases, the cost of heating will drastically come down I bet. Especially if we can insulate the boilers even more.
 


« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 09:45:25 AM by JDfarmer »
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big don

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2015, 12:49:16 PM »

JD,  Great info in your recent post on your stove ideas to improve the heat loss.  I have a MF E Heatmaster and the roof is slanted so I could not put fire brick on it to help with the heat loss.  I just came in after checking the stove which also has legs that are about 1 Ft off the cement slab it stands on---I dont have a laser temp gauge but I put my hand under the bottom and sure enough it was hot enough that you would'nt want to keep it their for extended time.  Got to be losing heat.  Regarding the steel plate in the fire box ---this stove has the triple by-pass before the smoke exit's the chimney so I think that is working similiar to your plate idea?  I am strongly thinking that I would like to put the bricks around the bottom as you suggest.  Are those bricks Fire bricks or just building blocks that you could buy at Home Depot?  I just had the thought if you could post a picture of how you have yours set-up?  Thank you.  Don
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JDfarmer

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2015, 02:46:55 PM »

I'll pos the pics tonight. My boiler's roof is slanted as well (little bit less than 45 degrees), but that doesn't stop me from putting fire bricks on the top. Actually, I just put a wood board at the edge of the roof. It is just resting on the top of the boiler at the edge. There are screws that are holding the metal sheet that is covering the boiler. The screw stick out about 1/3 inch and it's enough to hold the board. The board supports the fire bricks from sliding down. It put a heavier brink on top of the board that holds the roof fire bricks just to weight it down into the roof and the screws holding it. That's it. It's been like that for 2 years they haven't moved.

Now as for the bottom; I just used regular landscaping bricks. No mortar I just stacked the bricks in two rows covering the openings under the boiler, all the way around. I used to have snow melt around the legs and the entire boiler bottom in a 1- 2 foot radius, no it's iced up to the bricks. So, it's insulating very well. In the summer I leave some openings so it stays dry. In the winter it is dry from the heat.

How do I post pics? It won't let me post it, it says account if full or something.
I used firebricks on the top because I had some extras and they are lighter and they insulate very well. They are also flat with a gritty surface to they do grab the sheet metal pretty well. I have not had any slide off. The wood board works well. You could use silicone chalking too. Just a spot on the middle of the brick. Silicon mortar. I bought a temp gun at home depot for $50. It's well worth it. You can find all the heat leaks in a half hour.
It's a no brad whatever, like this; works great.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-Tools-40-to-1076-Fahrenheit-Infrared-Thermometer-with-Pouch-IRT657/202801066?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cBase&gclid=CNG445a6lMMCFQEGaQodWSYAsQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

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artbaldoni

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Re: Ton=?cord
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2015, 07:13:19 AM »

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