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Author Topic: Primary/Secondary system design  (Read 8856 times)

morfem

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Primary/Secondary system design
« on: August 11, 2017, 12:06:18 PM »

This is my attempt at designing a system for my house and pole barn running off the same OWB.

I have never done anything like this before so if you have any input of where I am going wrong or have an idea on how to make it better please let me know your thoughts.

I have looked at numerous webpages/videos trying to figure this out.
The Idronics catalogs and Coffee with Callefi videos had allot of good info.

https://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/technical-magazine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hEFzCCxz9s&list=PLuuV0ELkYb5VE0I4evUZ30b5U78CRlRdg


The house will have about 250' or Logstor pipe to it and the barn has about 100'.

My thoughts are to have a Primary/Secondary loop system. With one outdoor reset that controls the water temp for both the garage and basement floor heat in the house. And another outdoor reset for the barn to control both concrete zones.

In the house I would like to heat the following.
2 water to air heat exchangers. Mounted in the existing ductwork. One is on the first floor and the other is on the second.

Domestic hot water with a Flat plat heat exchanger. Anti scald valve on top.

Attached garage concrete floor. 3 - 300 ft loops

Basement concrete floor. 6 - 300 ft loops.



Pole barn has the following.

Unit heater hanging from ceiling

Domestic hot water with a Flat plat heat exchanger. Anti scald valve on top.

Small baseboard radiator heater for small bathroom.

Main zone concrete: 8 - 300 ft loops

Secondary zone 1 - 300 ft loop.



Once I get a system design nailed down I need to figure out where to put all the valves, flanges,
drain ports, etc.....

Does anyone know of a free software that would help with system design and part specification?


Thanks for your time.
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slimjim

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 01:19:28 PM »

Looks like one heck of a system, I would like to see placement of circus on the plans, then let's move from there.
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 01:28:51 PM »

The small square boxes with the triangle in the middle are my crude representation of the circulating pumps with the triangle pointing in the direction of flow.

Is that what you are asking for Slim?
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slimjim

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 01:30:44 PM »

Ok, I thought so but wanted to be sure, I haven't had a real chance to digest it, can we talk tommorow.
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hondaracer2oo4

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 05:12:05 PM »

Can I start out by asking why the distances to te house and barn are so far from the boiler? Also what boiler do you have, are you currently heating with another fuel source? What kind, how much per season and where do you live?
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 05:50:10 PM »

The OWB placement is where it worked out the best with building placement any yard layout.

The boiler will be a Portage and main 34-44.

The house is currently heated with a heat pump and there is no heat in the barn.

Not sure on current usage.

Location is southern indiana.
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NaturallyAspirated

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 08:53:28 PM »

So a couple of things I see:

I would abandon the tertiary level to the cement loops, if done right there is no reason you cannot run all the cement in floor loops off one pump (secondary off the main loop). 

I would also imagine you would want to mix down the water temperature for the cement in floor loops.  Sending 160-180 degree water into the cement floor can make standing on top of it uncomfortable on the feet.  A much lower temp for those loops would be a better design. 85-105 degree water is usually a good range for cement in floor loops.

There isn't really a reason to divide your primary loop up with the parallel branches.  If you are doing a loop, make it a loop, not a bunch of cells.  You could run into balancing/starvation issues if you make all those parallel paths in your primary loop.  It would be simpler to keep all your secondary loops with close spaced tees off of one continuous primary loop.
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 11:42:52 PM »

Thanks naturally aspirated.  How would I go about having 2 zones in the concrete ran off 1 pump? That would be my preference. I added the tertiary loop in to get by with 1 outdoor reset to lower the water temp.

Are the parallel loops needed? I was thinking that route so the water temp would be the same for all loops and  not be low at the last loop like it would be with a serial loop. Is that even a real concern?

What is considered "close" when spacing the t's? Planning on using 1" copper.

I have no real world knowledge about this. Just what I can find on the Ole interweb.
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slimjim

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 04:04:13 AM »

Why 2 zones in the Crete, is it not an open building, is there separation of the Crete between the zones?
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 04:43:02 AM »

The 2 zones for the house is 1 for the basement and 1 for the attached garage. And the 2 zones for the barn is the main area and then I have a block room in one corner that is sealed up pretty tight with a dehumidifier in it. I store some items in there that I want to keep secure and not rust. I don't necessarily have to have 2 zones there but thought it would be nice if possible.
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slimjim

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 05:02:46 AM »

I'm just thinking 2 sections of Crete that are connected and running dramatically different temps Michu crack the Crete.
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 05:10:58 AM »

Good point. I didn't think about that.
 I am thinking about the main part being kept around 55-60 and the other section around 70.
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slimjim

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 06:22:21 AM »

It's not the inside air temp that I would be concerned with but instead the water temp going into the slab. If you buy your product from a real supply house they will lay out your system for you for free, they will need overall size and placement of doors and windows then they can balance all your loops for you.
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morfem

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 11:06:03 AM »

Anybody else want to take a stab at this?
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E Yoder

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Re: Primary/Secondary system design
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 10:59:09 AM »

So a couple of things I see:


There isn't really a reason to divide your primary loop up with the parallel branches.  If you are doing a loop, make it a loop, not a bunch of cells.  You could run into balancing/starvation issues if you make all those parallel paths in your primary loop.  It would be simpler to keep all your secondary loops with close spaced tees off of one continuous primary loop.

I agree, make the primary loop a loop. Place the tees as close as possible to avoid ghost flow. Webstone's P/S purge tees are nice.
I would stack the secondary loops in the barn in this order: domestic FPHX (so it has priority), baseboard rad, unit heater, floor heat. Basically in order of water temp required.
House secondary loop order: Domestic, air handler loop, floor heat. Again in order of priority and temp needed.

Slab water should be able to be close enough in temp to avoid any issues, piping can be spaced to use the same temp water I would think. Separate pump pumping mixed water for each room should be fine unless I'm missing something.



« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 11:05:00 AM by E Yoder »
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