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[kommandokenny]

Honda,,Everything you say makes perfect sense.
I agree/understand it all, specially the part about the exchanger.. not being able to keep up and recover

There were posts earlier explaining that plate number and size would not matter.
At the time I agreed with this as it came from knowledgeable members.

I also looked at my Woodmaster bill,, and see I WAS CHARGED FOR A 20 PLATE and received a 10 plate.
I knew nothing,, and trusted the installer to set it up for me.

So I believe my options are,, to wait till spring and redo it properly with a side arm in series , or switch it back to feeding the exchanger from the HWT..Incorporate a small inline pump below exchanger to circulate the water through the exchanger slowly.
Or leave it and use it as an assister?

KK

















Or keep it as a hot water assister.

Any better options$$ appreciated

[CountryBoyJohn]

Mr. Honda may have hit on another key problem. After your tee at the point it enters your basement, do you have s pump on each run?  If not, I'm 100% positive this is your problem. I know, because I did the same thing. You can't plumb our stove pumps like normal plumbing. You need to plumb everything in series. If you don't have a pump on each leg, only one leg is getting the flow. In guessing that your furnace is on one leg and works fine and your water heater is on the other!! 

[kommandokenny]

10-4 Country.
That's why I posted pictures of  my" T" set up yesterday.
I looked at the schematics from the various OWB companies and they are all in a circuit .
This is what I was eluding to earlier in one of my post's.
The hot water on the stove side of the exchanger cannot go through the exchanger fast enough to heat the domestic .
Almost like what everyone id saying"you got a plugged exchanger'"
It goes through and warms it but it almost works in reverse [cold wins]

So what to do '
For now,,Small pump and push it up through the exchanger and into the top of the HWT...... if it cycles around, it will get hot, eventually???
Maybe 20 plate exchanger if that does not work??
KK

[CountryBoyJohn]

Depending on how strong your pump is, you could redo your tee and run your system in series. That's what i did to fix my problem when i did the same thing.

But, I would recommend a 20 plate. It's not 100% necessary, but recommended.

If you have a second pump, what you recommend, and I think Slim proposed in a previous thread too, should work.

I apologize for the "clogged exchange" diagnosis. But, it does sound like you have a pressure issue in your domestic side. It could be because you are using a 10 plate and not a 20.

[hondaracer2oo4]

Here are my suggestions on fixing this.

1. You need to fix how this thing is plumbed. Get rid of the Ts on the incoming line. After your Water to air HX on your furnace run the returning line over to your hot water heater to run through your hot water heat exchanger and then send the water back to your boiler. This step is necessary to get your flat plate or a side arm to work correctly
2. Either replace your 10 plate with a 20 or a 30 plate HX or a side arm. Either will work. If you have water that is not hard I would use a flat plate to pre heat your water. If you have hard water I would use a side arm. No need to run a pump on a plate heat exchanger either. It will heat the water up to temp just fine all the way from well water temp.

[willieG]

this system needs to be looked at from start to finish before just hooking in series. it is obvious there is a problem but just to say hook in series may still not fix it. what (I think) needs to be done is to look at the design from the start. pipe size, length, pump sizeand desired gpm etc.

remember than when hooked in series all head pressure must be added together

it is stated that the house heats fine but the water does not. now if you add the plate exchanger in line and lets say it adds  as much as 10 feet of head to the system it may in fact slow the gpm delivery to the furnace enough to cause problems there as well.( the house may not heat well or it may still heat well enough but the delta t may be too low) that is why I say this whole system needs to be looked at from the beginning

with the wrong pump in this system and the added head from the plate exchanger could drastically slow the flow

[hondaracer2oo4]

I agree 100% with confirming that the rest of the system is up to snuff. Please let us know the length of line from boiler to house, size of piping, pump brand and model, type and number of fittings in the system, size of water to air hx an that should be about it, any significant elevation change between boiler and the house and that should be it. This should allow us to be able to determine if the pump is big enough to deal with the head pressure.

[kommandokenny]

Depending on how strong your pump is, you could redo your tee and run your system in series. That's what i did to fix my problem when i did the same thing.

But, I would recommend a 20 plate. It's not 100% necessary, but recommended.

If you have a second pump, what you recommend, and I think Slim proposed in a previous thread too, should work.

I apologize for the "clogged exchange" diagnosis. But, it does sound like you have a pressure issue in your domestic side. It could be because you are using a 10 plate and not a 20.

Would a 20 plate not be more restrictive??
I would 86 my plate x and put in a side arm in series.
kk

[kommandokenny]

this system needs to be looked at from start to finish before just hooking in series. it is obvious there is a problem but just to say hook in series may still not fix it. what (I think) needs to be done is to look at the design from the start. pipe size, length, pump sizeand desired gpm etc.

remember than when hooked in series all head pressure must be added together

it is stated that the house heats fine but the water does not. now if you add the plate exchanger in line and lets say it adds  as much as 10 feet of head to the system it may in fact slow the gpm delivery to the furnace enough to cause problems there as well.( the house may not heat well or it may still heat well enough but the delta t may be too low) that is why I say this whole system needs to be looked at from the beginning

with the wrong pump in this system and the added head from the plate exchanger could drastically slow the flow

I would go to the furnace first and then to a side arm and back to boiler.
I will post the pump model when I get Out of my jammies
OWB is 35 ft to f.f. furnace
Don't for- see a problem either way, if it's hooked up in series, with a less restrictive, side arm.
Yes I got hard water to boot

[kommandokenny]

Here are my suggestions on fixing this.

1. You need to fix how this thing is plumbed. Get rid of the Ts on the incoming line. After your Water to air HX on your furnace run the returning line over to your hot water heater to run through your hot water heat exchanger and then send the water back to your boiler. This step is necessary to get your flat plate or a side arm to work correctly
2. Either replace your 10 plate with a 20 or a 30 plate HX or a side arm. Either will work. If you have water that is not hard I would use a flat plate to pre heat your water. If you have hard water I would use a side arm. No need to run a pump on a plate heat exchanger either. It will heat the water up to temp just fine all the way from well water temp.

10-4.... EXACTLY!!
When I originally posted this, I did not give enough info.[didn't know]
I did not realize the flow issue until Country or Slim mentioned it.
The crazy T hookups are the main problem ,,there are other factors to consider .
The quote above splains it all
kk

[kommandokenny]

I agree 100% with confirming that the rest of the system is up to snuff. Please let us know the length of line from boiler to house, size of piping, pump brand and model, type and number of fittings in the system, size of water to air hx an that should be about it, any significant elevation change between boiler and the house and that should be it. This should allow us to be able to determine if the pump is big enough to deal with the head pressure.

FFfurnace is 40 ft from 4400.
 HWT is another 12 ft.
1 inch lines [3/4 in the HWT loop]
Furnace xchanger is HTL 14X18
pump is 0011 Taco circulator.
No elevation.
Head pressure unknown
No 90* turns in the 1 in. main line, cept at the water to air exchanger in the f.f. furnace
Hope this helps?

kk

[Ched Bull]

Kommendokenny, I have a heat master MF 5000 100 feet from my boiler to my house then 15 feet to my 10 pate heat ex changer that sets at ground level, the hot water comes in from the top of the ex changer on the left side ports and comes out the bottom of the ex changer on the left bottom port. At the bottom of my water heater at the drain I have a T and I went in to my ex changer at the bottom on the right side and out the top of the ex changer on the top of the right side into the top of my water heater where the pressure re leaf valve is and I have a t there so I can still have a re leaf valve in place. Then out the hot water port at the top of my water heater to my kitchen and bath rooms.Going back to the plate ex changer where the hot water comes out the bottom on the left side of the ex changer I go to my heat ex changer in my plenum in my furnace and back out to my boiler. My boiler is set at 180 to 170 and I have 163 degree water at the farthest bathroom in my house 38 feet. and 109 degree air out my farthest heat register 42 feet. I had to put a mixing valve on my hot water side that goes to the kitchen and bathrooms. At the boiler I have a honey well three stage pump running on the middle stage on the outlet side of the boiler. that being said I be leave every thing you have will work just configure it differently. PS my son in law has the exact same set up at his house and it is 2600 sq. foot house mine is a 1800 sq. foot house. Burn times at 20 degrees has been great 15 to 24 hours depending on the wind speed outside. I dont care what any one says wind speed dose make a difference, wind will suck out the exhaust pipe or blow in changing the burn times. I hope this helps. Lines are all inch Pex.                   

[kommandokenny]

Thanks Ched
Thats pretty much what I have to do.
Your pump is probably more powerful but I only have to go 30 -40 ft.
Because of the hard water I may switch out the plate exchanger for the side arm.

Any Pictures of your HWT??

KK

[hondaracer2oo4]

I think your 10 plate right now is plugged up with hard water deposits and that is why you aren't getting any hot water even after your reconfig. I would take it off and clean it out. Also with all of the specs you provided you will be fine with the pump you have.

[willieG]

I agree the pump is a brute...and i am leaning to the  plate exchanger being partially plugged as it was stated that with it plumbed as on demand and the mixing valve  closed so no cold water could mix...that pressure at the tap seemed low. I know nothing about these type of exchangers but I would think that with 30 to 50 psi from the well that it could push through 2 or 3 gpm that a normal house runs on?