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61
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Water Jacket size---------Smaller/Bigger is Better?
« on: September 04, 2014, 08:47:17 AM »
SIZE OF WATER STORAGE
On furnaces without forced air draft this is a major consideration. Heating of the water takes a long time and it is important that a steady supply is always present. Small tanks in units without forced air draft just don’t hold enough hot water between burn cycles. Extra in-house storage tanks can be added. In forced air models the replacement of hot water is very quick and efficient. Unburned wood in a forced air system will instantly produce heat when the draft fan kicks on. These systems are more efficient and burn less wood. However there still needs to be sufficient water around the firebox to reduce the number of burn cycles. Even on small furnaces having forced air systems the absolute minimum for efficiency is 125 gallons capacity, increasing to 300 gallons on large furnaces.
Taken from http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaces.org/guide.php
On furnaces without forced air draft this is a major consideration. Heating of the water takes a long time and it is important that a steady supply is always present. Small tanks in units without forced air draft just don’t hold enough hot water between burn cycles. Extra in-house storage tanks can be added. In forced air models the replacement of hot water is very quick and efficient. Unburned wood in a forced air system will instantly produce heat when the draft fan kicks on. These systems are more efficient and burn less wood. However there still needs to be sufficient water around the firebox to reduce the number of burn cycles. Even on small furnaces having forced air systems the absolute minimum for efficiency is 125 gallons capacity, increasing to 300 gallons on large furnaces.
Taken from http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaces.org/guide.php
62
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Water Jacket size---------Smaller/Bigger is Better?
« on: September 04, 2014, 08:44:19 AM »
yoderheating
You got to remember my CB is 15 years old. When I bought it has a large firebox and holds 400 gal. of water. CB had the bright idea that putting the air intake for the firebox on the side of the boiler. They called it the cyclone air. It works but the wood on the opposite side of the air intake don't burn to good. It didn't take CB to put the air intake back on the door where the original had it. My firebox can hold a lot of wood. One winter we went away for the weekend and the temp. by day got to 30 and down to 20 at night with a 10-15 mph wind. I filled the firebox as much as I could get in. After we got home I was sure the boiler was out. Had the house set at 70 degrees. When I opened the boiler door I couldn't believe my eyes. I had lots of wood left. The boiler went 4 days before I had to add wood.
You got to remember my CB is 15 years old. When I bought it has a large firebox and holds 400 gal. of water. CB had the bright idea that putting the air intake for the firebox on the side of the boiler. They called it the cyclone air. It works but the wood on the opposite side of the air intake don't burn to good. It didn't take CB to put the air intake back on the door where the original had it. My firebox can hold a lot of wood. One winter we went away for the weekend and the temp. by day got to 30 and down to 20 at night with a 10-15 mph wind. I filled the firebox as much as I could get in. After we got home I was sure the boiler was out. Had the house set at 70 degrees. When I opened the boiler door I couldn't believe my eyes. I had lots of wood left. The boiler went 4 days before I had to add wood.
63
Central Boiler / Re: Looking to buy a Central Boiler
« on: September 03, 2014, 09:17:58 AM »
Roger2561
I have the brochure in front of me now. The E-2400 foundation shows the dimensions and the 2" rigid foam insulation, it says optional. But why? There must be a reason for putting insulation around the foundation. I've heard that the electronics in the CB are having problems in the cold winter conditions.
I just can't see spending over $12,000 on a boiler the only has a 1 year warranty on the electronics.
I CB would have left there boilers simple, as my old CB 400, and had the electronics as an option, I might consider one. The simpler the boiler the less problems you will have. I heard some of the controls don't even last 3 years. And I heard that some do last, but for how long.
Boilerman, look under the picture in the brochure, it show the slab in yellow, the clearance in light gray and the insulation in dark gray. I does not say to put insulation under the slab.
I have the brochure in front of me now. The E-2400 foundation shows the dimensions and the 2" rigid foam insulation, it says optional. But why? There must be a reason for putting insulation around the foundation. I've heard that the electronics in the CB are having problems in the cold winter conditions.
I just can't see spending over $12,000 on a boiler the only has a 1 year warranty on the electronics.
I CB would have left there boilers simple, as my old CB 400, and had the electronics as an option, I might consider one. The simpler the boiler the less problems you will have. I heard some of the controls don't even last 3 years. And I heard that some do last, but for how long.
Boilerman, look under the picture in the brochure, it show the slab in yellow, the clearance in light gray and the insulation in dark gray. I does not say to put insulation under the slab.
64
Central Boiler / Re: Looking to buy a Central Boiler
« on: September 02, 2014, 07:43:43 AM »
Just looking at replacing my15 year old CB. CL400, before the new EPA regulations go into effect. With a CB I would have to go with the 6048. Talked to the CB dealer and he is sold on the gssers. I got a brochure and the E-Classic 2400, which would be the replacement in the gasser. The more I look and the longer he talked the less I was going to buy a CB gasser. The company even recommends a concrete slab with 12" of insulation on the sides and 72" in front. They recommend 2"thick insulation. I think if the slab needs to be insulated, it is because there must be a heat loss from under the boiler. If you are thinking of of a CB go with the 6048, it will heat 8,000 sq.ft. and not be starved for wood as the 5036 might be. Also be aware of all the electronics on the CB. My old CB is a bare bones model and I have had very few problems with it, the only one was the temp. readout on the boiler went out and that is more of there electronics that can't stand up to the cold weather in Wis. Yes it does get cold here. We have had temp. in the -30 degrees withe a 30mph wind, with the wind chill you are looking a -60 to -70 below zero.
65
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Water Jacket size---------Smaller/Bigger is Better?
« on: September 02, 2014, 07:14:58 AM »
Slimjim
I'm aware it does take more to get the boiler up to operating temp. I start my boiler early in the fall and make sure everything is working. It sometimes takes me 2 days to get it up to the 175 degrees that is preset at the factory, I can't adjust my temp. I start it up slow, using small sticks and wood that would not be much good to burn in the winter. I believe a slow start up is easier on the boiler.You don't want to start up a boiler with a roaring fire. Once the water is up to the 175 it don't take a lot of wood to keep it at that temp. I'm not restarting the boiler every time the temp drops, it only drops to 170 degrees and then it kicks in. I'm glad everybody has and onion on thick firebox, stainless verses steel, and large water jacket verses small jacket. Whatever your preference, you do have a choice. If it weren't for different choices we would all be driving the Henry Ford car. Same goes for boilers, we have a choice, and everyone has an opinion on what is the best way to go. Maybe if I had a boiler with a small water jacket from the start, I would prefer that over the large one I have now.
I'm aware it does take more to get the boiler up to operating temp. I start my boiler early in the fall and make sure everything is working. It sometimes takes me 2 days to get it up to the 175 degrees that is preset at the factory, I can't adjust my temp. I start it up slow, using small sticks and wood that would not be much good to burn in the winter. I believe a slow start up is easier on the boiler.You don't want to start up a boiler with a roaring fire. Once the water is up to the 175 it don't take a lot of wood to keep it at that temp. I'm not restarting the boiler every time the temp drops, it only drops to 170 degrees and then it kicks in. I'm glad everybody has and onion on thick firebox, stainless verses steel, and large water jacket verses small jacket. Whatever your preference, you do have a choice. If it weren't for different choices we would all be driving the Henry Ford car. Same goes for boilers, we have a choice, and everyone has an opinion on what is the best way to go. Maybe if I had a boiler with a small water jacket from the start, I would prefer that over the large one I have now.
66
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Water Jacket size---------Smaller/Bigger is Better?
« on: September 01, 2014, 08:41:09 AM »
Just talked to a CB dealer in my area last week. He told me he was at the CB plant and seen every kind of boiler made in there plant. They check each and everyone to look at the good points and bad. He could sell a block of ice to an Eskimo. Almost had me convince in a CB. He installs too. They have a large water jacket. The larger the sq. ft you are heating the larger the water jacket. I just don't like all the electronics on the CB. The simpler the better. I use a Taco 0011 in each building and he told me that was a waste, a 007 is all I need to run the system. I know this is not true. There are a lot of things to consider. He said it would pump to 15 ft. But did not tell you that you loose volume. At 15 ft. you are only pumping about 1-2 gal. of water.
My 0011 will pump 34 gal,/min and the higher the head the less water until you get to around 34 ft. I would rather keep the water moving than only getting around 1-2 gal,/min. out of the 007. I know everybody don't agree, but if it works don't fix it. Every salesman will tell you that there OWB are the best on the market. It's up the the individual to get all the fax's from a plumber before he make a decision on what is best for his setup.
My 0011 will pump 34 gal,/min and the higher the head the less water until you get to around 34 ft. I would rather keep the water moving than only getting around 1-2 gal,/min. out of the 007. I know everybody don't agree, but if it works don't fix it. Every salesman will tell you that there OWB are the best on the market. It's up the the individual to get all the fax's from a plumber before he make a decision on what is best for his setup.
67
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Renewed faith in the American citizen
« on: September 01, 2014, 08:09:34 AM »
Slimjim:
I'm glad you had a good experience. All you hear in the news nowadays is the bad things that happen on the news. Story's like yours never get on the news. If you do hear of something that good happened it is the shortest story on the news. I still believe there are more good people in the world than bad. But good news don't make for good ratings.
I'm glad you had a good experience. All you hear in the news nowadays is the bad things that happen on the news. Story's like yours never get on the news. If you do hear of something that good happened it is the shortest story on the news. I still believe there are more good people in the world than bad. But good news don't make for good ratings.
68
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Water Jacket size---------Smaller/Bigger is Better?
« on: September 01, 2014, 07:57:06 AM »
All I can tell you is that my system has 400 gal. of water. I'm heating house and basement and a 1500 sq.ft. shop. When the house calls for heat, I loose 12 degrees in temperature as the heat is pulled out of the water on the way back to the boiler. Now if the water in the boiler is running at 175 degrees it don't pull the boiler water down 12 degrees. I watched the boiler temp. and only lost 2 degrees after about 5 minutes of heat being pulled out of the water. It takes a lot of a long time to cool down before the boiler kicks in. Everybody has there onion on more or less water in the boiler jacket. I have a buddy who believes less is better, but he is always refilling with more wood because he is using up the smaller amount of water. He does have a quicker recovery time but is refilling more often. Let's try this. Put 2 identical pots on the stove, one with 1 qt. of water and the other with 3 qt. of water heat to almost a boil. Turn off the burner and leave pot on hot burner. Which one will cool down quicker. The air temp. pulling the heat out of the water, and the burner being the heat source. It takes longer for the 3 qt. pot to cool down than the 1 qt. Everybody has there onion on which is better. Small water jacket or large. I prefer the larger jacket.
69
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Outdoor Furnace Supply
« on: August 24, 2014, 11:04:28 AM »
Have ordered a lot from them. Fast time for order to receiving. There are other places, but I had to wait a long time for the part I ordered. Sometime 2-3 weeks. I always go back to outdoor stove supply.
70
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Earth vs. Ozarks Biomass
« on: August 24, 2014, 11:00:22 AM »
I've checking out all the owb's. I will be looking at the Earth Mountain 505 this week. Looking at replacing my old, I mean old, 15 year CB. Why, you may ask, not a CB. Well for one thing all that electronic s---t. It don't work all the time. Also I found out that the 1/4" inside boiler is not 1/4", it's thinner than they clam. There seems to me a lot of Earth dealers in Wis. Has to be some reason for that. I have Hawken owb dealer just a few min. drive from me. He has an attitude problem. Just wants to sell. You have to wait until he is ready to do the install and keep after him. Once installed he wants his money on the spot. I can't imagine the king of service I would get from him. CB will I hope make it a couple of more years but with the new regulations going into effect, I'm thinking of buying a non gasser and letting it stand until the CB finely dies. Lots of owb's out there, and all claim to have the best on the market and the best warranty.
71
Earth Outdoor Wood Furnaces / Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« on: August 22, 2014, 09:26:24 AM »
Slimjim, Sorry I don't make any sense to you or anybody out there. Like I said, I've had my boiler for 15 years. Has anyone even had one close to that many years. If the fire chamber is the temp. of the hot coals than the steel has to be close to that temp. If you water reads 175 degrees the fire box has to be 175. The hot coals can keep the water at that temp. For and example run your boiler in the late spring when the outside temp. is 50 degrees. See how often the boiler will start up. The hot coals keep the firebox hot and the water as well. I keep my boiler running a lot longer than I should just to heat the DHW. The boiler may only kick in once all day. Everybody has there opinion on boilers and that is a good thing, without owning an owb there could be no discussions. My friend has the same boiler as I do, only a newer model. I have a water to air exchanger and he has a water to water exchanger. He runs his at 195 degrees and his house is at best 70 degrees. I know there are a lot of factors to consider but all in all it is up to the buyer of an owb that has to make his own decision I do like the design of the P&M but can't find anyone around me that has one. Still looking at the Earth for a replacement.
72
Earth Outdoor Wood Furnaces / Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« on: August 21, 2014, 10:09:33 AM »
hondaracer2oo4,
I think you missed the point totally, your boiler don't cool down, it is always hot in the firebox, and the steel in the firebox is at that temp. When you pull heat out of the water the less water means the whole system will cool down faster if you have a thin firebox and the boiler will have to be started up with the draft. The more water in the boiler the longer it takes to draw down the temp. I've had my boiler for 15 years and it has 400 gals. of water in it. I only need to fill it once a day. I'm heating over 5,000 sq.ft. with the shop which never gets below 55 degrees at night where I set it. The house is 75 degrees night and day. The hot coals in the firebox keep the steel hot all the time. I know of owb owners that have thin steel and a small amount of water and they are running all the time, I know this because I can tell when a boiler is running by looking at the smoke coming out or it is shut down, being up to the temp.
I think you missed the point totally, your boiler don't cool down, it is always hot in the firebox, and the steel in the firebox is at that temp. When you pull heat out of the water the less water means the whole system will cool down faster if you have a thin firebox and the boiler will have to be started up with the draft. The more water in the boiler the longer it takes to draw down the temp. I've had my boiler for 15 years and it has 400 gals. of water in it. I only need to fill it once a day. I'm heating over 5,000 sq.ft. with the shop which never gets below 55 degrees at night where I set it. The house is 75 degrees night and day. The hot coals in the firebox keep the steel hot all the time. I know of owb owners that have thin steel and a small amount of water and they are running all the time, I know this because I can tell when a boiler is running by looking at the smoke coming out or it is shut down, being up to the temp.
73
Earth Outdoor Wood Furnaces / Re: thinking about buy one
« on: August 21, 2014, 08:57:50 AM »
Look at the owb on the market, all of them. There is a big difference between them. Most of the high priced ones have a lot of bells and whistle that don't make them work any better than the bare bones one do. The simpler the unit the easier it is to maintain. Thin verses thick? That is a personal preference. Thin will not last as long as thick. Remember the fire's in the firebox and that takes the most abuse. After a couple of years what is going to take the intense heat better? Stainless verses steel, stainless is expensive and the firebox is going to be a lot thinner. Don't let a big name company make your decision for you. The best way is to drive around and stop in by owner and see what they say. The more different makes you look at the more information you will get. I have a CB and have recommended them, but after I saw what the company has done since I bough mine 15 years ago, I would not recommended one.
74
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: This question may sound dumb, but I think it's important!
« on: August 18, 2014, 10:05:11 AM »
Anything over 6" should be split once. Anything over that don't burn as good but will last longer in the firebox but will need more wood to keep it going. I have a 15 year old CB and it will take 36" wood with no problem, and as for dia. I split my logs down to 8-10". I once put in a 20" unsplit long that sat around for 2 years and it just laid there, I needed a lot of small wood to get it to burn. Just remember that if you split to small you might as well use popsicle sticks.
75
Earth Outdoor Wood Furnaces / Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« on: August 18, 2014, 09:28:13 AM »
Scott seems to know a lot about OWB's but not a lot about steel. Your boiler don't cool down to outdoor temp's. There should be less than 10 degrees temp. drop in the water before the boiler kicks in. Just try to but your hand in the boiler when it is not calling for heat, well the steel is at that temp. of the coals and don't take a lot of fuel to bring it up to temp. and also the same is true as the heat is taken out of the water, it takes a long time to bring the firebox down. If thinner is better than buy a owb that is 1/8" thick and see how long the firebox lasts. A firebox with 1/2" steel will last a lot longer than one made of 1/4" steel, also if thinner is better than the owb makers would be making them as thin as aluminum foil.