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1
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Tree fell on Shaver Boiler
« on: May 13, 2018, 06:33:13 AM »
Thanks to all for your advice.
I received two quotes for replacement units. The G200 HeatMaster quote is $11,500 delivered and installed with hot water option. The nearest dealer is 90 miles from me. The second quote from the company that installed my propane furnace is for an E-100 Ozark Biomass boiler for $6650, delivered and installed. The second option is not EPA compliant for residential. Didn't seem to be an issue with them.
For all the issues with the Shaver, It has kept my home warm and hot water in good supply. All for much less than the cost of propane. I will also have about half of my wood needs met with the very tree that damaged my Shaver. Although the G200 is my desire, repair of the Shaver is more economical. I will have to replace some of the skin, repair some of the filler plumbing on the top, and rebuild the tube frame for the skin in top. The damage appears worse than it is. I can see this after sawing off the part of the tree that damaged it. A new bottom for the water jacket would add years of life as well. All cost far less than the G200.
My brief research on the E-100 from the local company says that it falls in the same class as the Shaver. I don't want to spend money on equivalent technology. Does anyone have experience with the E-100 Ozark Biomass boiler?
What the insurance company pays for is still to be determined. BTW, the local company said my 90% efficient propane furnace is still in great condition. No need to make a change there.
Thanks again for your help.
Jerry
I received two quotes for replacement units. The G200 HeatMaster quote is $11,500 delivered and installed with hot water option. The nearest dealer is 90 miles from me. The second quote from the company that installed my propane furnace is for an E-100 Ozark Biomass boiler for $6650, delivered and installed. The second option is not EPA compliant for residential. Didn't seem to be an issue with them.
For all the issues with the Shaver, It has kept my home warm and hot water in good supply. All for much less than the cost of propane. I will also have about half of my wood needs met with the very tree that damaged my Shaver. Although the G200 is my desire, repair of the Shaver is more economical. I will have to replace some of the skin, repair some of the filler plumbing on the top, and rebuild the tube frame for the skin in top. The damage appears worse than it is. I can see this after sawing off the part of the tree that damaged it. A new bottom for the water jacket would add years of life as well. All cost far less than the G200.
My brief research on the E-100 from the local company says that it falls in the same class as the Shaver. I don't want to spend money on equivalent technology. Does anyone have experience with the E-100 Ozark Biomass boiler?
What the insurance company pays for is still to be determined. BTW, the local company said my 90% efficient propane furnace is still in great condition. No need to make a change there.
Thanks again for your help.
Jerry
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Tree fell on Shaver Boiler
« on: May 10, 2018, 09:33:24 PM »
Last Thursday evening, one of our many oak trees fell on my Shaver 165 boiler. It has been in service 10-11 years. It is not damaged beyond repair, but is heavily damaged. My insurance company has stated they will replace it.
I buy my wood, so I am not getting "Free Heat". I have calculated in the past that propane needs to be around $1.20 per gal or less to be comparable to my wood costs for the season. My last full season use of propane was 1000 gal. I think that was before I insulated my floors. I have a farm house built in 1917. It is fairly energy efficient, except for the old double hung windows with storms over them.
Last summer, I had to repair a leak in the bottom of the water jacket. It appeared that other leaks may be over the horizon. I reworked the insulation and seals before last season, getting good burns throughout last winter. Probably the best I have ever gotten.
Since Shaver is gone, should I just take the money and run to my propane supplier, or should I look toward another boiler purchase? I know I keep my house a few degrees warmer with the boiler, than I did with the propane furnace. I also enjoy my endless supply of hot water. I tend to get fewer complaints from my wife and daughter when the hot water is in plenty supply. BTW, my propane furnace is approaching 15 years old, but has been used little since installing the Shaver 11 years ago.
Any advice on my next move?
Thanks
I buy my wood, so I am not getting "Free Heat". I have calculated in the past that propane needs to be around $1.20 per gal or less to be comparable to my wood costs for the season. My last full season use of propane was 1000 gal. I think that was before I insulated my floors. I have a farm house built in 1917. It is fairly energy efficient, except for the old double hung windows with storms over them.
Last summer, I had to repair a leak in the bottom of the water jacket. It appeared that other leaks may be over the horizon. I reworked the insulation and seals before last season, getting good burns throughout last winter. Probably the best I have ever gotten.
Since Shaver is gone, should I just take the money and run to my propane supplier, or should I look toward another boiler purchase? I know I keep my house a few degrees warmer with the boiler, than I did with the propane furnace. I also enjoy my endless supply of hot water. I tend to get fewer complaints from my wife and daughter when the hot water is in plenty supply. BTW, my propane furnace is approaching 15 years old, but has been used little since installing the Shaver 11 years ago.
Any advice on my next move?
Thanks
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Re-insulating my Shaver 165
« on: October 16, 2017, 12:13:21 PM »
After waiting two weeks for my welder to add rope gasket channel to my Shaver boiler doors, I decided to install the 3/4" rope gasket with out the benefit of a channel. I impregnated the fiberglass rope with high temp RTV gasket maker, then put a generous bead to bed it in. After curing for a day, I fired up the boiler. For the first time, my Shaver boiler doesn't draft when the fan is off.
Then I found a leak on the bottom after running the cleaning chemical cycle. Turned out to be a hole about the diameter of a dime. It was just seeping until I scraped around on it with my putty knife. Then a 2" square piece of rust fell off revealing the hole.
I plugged the hole with wire mesh and quick cure JB Weld, but decided not to trust the JB Weld long term. Welder coming Wednesday. I still have all of the outer skin and insulation removed, so it will be an easy fix. In the mean time I can fire it up and have heat tonight. The family not happy waking up to 55 degree house.
I did add the 2" x 2" wood stringers to the outer square tube frame to double the insulation. Will insulate with r-13 batts and put the r-10 double foil fiberglass core radiant barrier over the r-13. Will add extra layer of r-13 to top area.
Maybe I can reduce my wood consumption a cord or two.
Then I found a leak on the bottom after running the cleaning chemical cycle. Turned out to be a hole about the diameter of a dime. It was just seeping until I scraped around on it with my putty knife. Then a 2" square piece of rust fell off revealing the hole.
I plugged the hole with wire mesh and quick cure JB Weld, but decided not to trust the JB Weld long term. Welder coming Wednesday. I still have all of the outer skin and insulation removed, so it will be an easy fix. In the mean time I can fire it up and have heat tonight. The family not happy waking up to 55 degree house.
I did add the 2" x 2" wood stringers to the outer square tube frame to double the insulation. Will insulate with r-13 batts and put the r-10 double foil fiberglass core radiant barrier over the r-13. Will add extra layer of r-13 to top area.
Maybe I can reduce my wood consumption a cord or two.
4
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: How Much Money Does Your Outdoor Wood Boiler Save You? w/ poll
« on: October 03, 2017, 09:21:52 AM »Same here, between having the house warmer than we would with gas, plus the unlimited hot water amounts to a lot more than just whats saved in gas/oil/electricity.
I used between 800-1000 gal of propane prior to my wood boiler install. I think the last propane I bought was 4 years ago. When I purchased my propane furnace in 2002, propane was selling for around $.89 / gal. I think it has been as high as $3 / gal since. So I compare my 1000 gal usage to 7.5 cords to calculate my savings. At $165 / cord for red oak and hickory, I need to buy propane at less than $1.20 / gal to justify its use. Plus it has to be purchased in lump sum in the summer to get that price. I can buy wood anytime for $165 / cord delivered. My pre-buy price for my propane this year was $1.53 / gal.
Times have been hard for my family during the Obama years, so currently it is financially difficult for my family budget to put down over $1500 on propane. My saving this year would be around $300 for using wood. Some would say not having to load a furnace is worth the extra $300. One thing I do with the wood heat is raise our temperature to 76 degrees F. Never did that with the propane furnace. 72 Degrees was the norm.
If I chose to cut a few trees on my 10 acres, I could save more. Seems like I always have at least a cord of scrap wood that needs cleaning up every year. Plus I like the pioneering feeling I get when I see the smoke.
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Re-insulating my Shaver 165
« on: October 03, 2017, 08:59:49 AM »
Thanks to all for your help.
Jerry
Jerry
6
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Re-insulating my Shaver 165
« on: October 03, 2017, 07:55:47 AM »
What is the value of the radiant barrier Silvercote insulation? It is a fiberglass core with the foil laminate. I have enough left over from my install to cover the top only. Cost for a 4' x 102' roll is about $130 plus shipping.
I can get the radiant barrier with a plastic bubble core locally in much smaller rolls for much less. Any issues in using this instead? Not so much worried about the plastic core melting as having the radiant function. I assume the best place to put the radiant barrier is on the outside of the un-faced fiberglass batts. Since the max temp for the water tank would be around 180 degrees, I shouldn't have an issue with the heat. I will use the remaining Silvercoat I have to cover the top where the chimney stack comes out of the top of the boiler.
Thanks for all your recommendations and advice.
I can get the radiant barrier with a plastic bubble core locally in much smaller rolls for much less. Any issues in using this instead? Not so much worried about the plastic core melting as having the radiant function. I assume the best place to put the radiant barrier is on the outside of the un-faced fiberglass batts. Since the max temp for the water tank would be around 180 degrees, I shouldn't have an issue with the heat. I will use the remaining Silvercoat I have to cover the top where the chimney stack comes out of the top of the boiler.
Thanks for all your recommendations and advice.
7
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Re-insulating my Shaver 165
« on: October 02, 2017, 01:54:34 PM »
I agree on the temps and using the thickest batts you can use without compressing. Definitely don't use anything flammable.
Thanks for the advice. My reason for adding the stringers is to increase the space for insulation. There is already 1" to 1-1/2" of space between the frame and the water tank. Add the 1.5" square tube frame plus another 1.5" stringer adds up to around 4.5". I think an R-19 fiberglass batt is 6" thick. An R-13 is around 3.5". I will fill the top area with as much as it will hold. I will do full wraps around the tank, that way I don't have to use any fasteners to keep the insulation snug under the bottom. I will just staple it to a wood stringer.
Which would be better door insulation: firebrick, or ceramic batt? I read somewhere on the shaver forum that someone put firebrick behind the metal fire shield on the firebox door.
Thanks
8
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re-insulating my Shaver 165
« on: October 02, 2017, 10:48:25 AM »
Hello,
I am posting in the general forum, because my questions can apply across many brands. Move it to the Shaver Forum if needed.
I removed all of the exterior metal siding from my Shaver 165 wood boiler last week. I have had it in service 10 years. I decided I needed to check for leaks, insulation condition, and water tank rust. I did not find any leaks, but did find rust. It has been about 3-4 years since I took off the roof sheet metal to inspect the interior of the water tank, thus resealing with RTV sealant. (And I will testify this is the only way to make sure the RTV is completely sealing the plate!)
After peeling off the insulation, I discovered the top metal of the water tank was rusted severely. I removed the rust scale with a prybar fork as best as I could. No holes as I can see. I then treated the water tank exterior with Ospho, which chemically kills the rust, turning it black. I think it was caused by the leaking RTV seal on the cover plate, which allowed the insulation to get and stay wet.
I have an old farmhouse built in 1917, which has had about all of the upgrades that can be made to make it more energy efficient. i.e. R32 attic insulation, drop ceilings to 8' from 10', R-19 in floors, storm windows, blower door test / replaced leaky forced air duct work, weather calking everywhere imaginable. Total living space around 1800 sq. ft.
I live in North Arkansas where the average winter hi/low temperature is between 26 and 50 degrees. I average burning 7 - 8 cords per year. To compare, I averaged 800-1000 gallons of propane the last 2 years I exclusively used it. I mostly buy my wood. We like our house around 76 degrees F in the winter. I fire my boiler at 150 max, but will raise it to 160 in below freezing temps.
I made the fan damper and drywell Ranco thermostat modifications the second year in service. Absolutely a necessity. Last week I took the burn chamber / ash doors to a machine shop to weld a 3/4" track around the perimeters so I can install a rope gasket on each. I tried using a rope gasket before, but it would not stay in place after a few weeks of use. The track will give more surface for the adhesive to hold it in place.
I also just re plumbed the hot water coil to split the cold water supply on the hot water heater, forcing the cold water to circulate through the boiler coil before entering the hot water tank's cold water pipe. The setup has ball valves to allow the loop to be closed off when the boiler is not fired. I may need a mixing valve here to prevent scalding. I have not used the water coil the last two years, as my Armstrong circulating pump quit working.
My main question is for replacing insulation. I see pictures on the web of various brands with what appears to be 8-10" of batts surrounding the water tank. The Shaver had maybe 2", with the reflective radiant foil on one side. The bottom was not insulated. There were 6" fiberglass un-faced batts on the top, with the radiant foil overlaid on top of the fiberglass.
Would I save fire wood by adding 2" x 2" stringers on top of the skin frame, and insulating with 6" of fiberglass batts on the side walls? Or would Polyisocyanurate Rigid Foam Insulation Board work better? Will the 180 degree water melt it? Is the foil radiant barrier on top give much help in retaining heat? Any other suggestions on better efficiency?
Sorry about the rambling on before getting to my question.
Thanks
Jerry
I am posting in the general forum, because my questions can apply across many brands. Move it to the Shaver Forum if needed.
I removed all of the exterior metal siding from my Shaver 165 wood boiler last week. I have had it in service 10 years. I decided I needed to check for leaks, insulation condition, and water tank rust. I did not find any leaks, but did find rust. It has been about 3-4 years since I took off the roof sheet metal to inspect the interior of the water tank, thus resealing with RTV sealant. (And I will testify this is the only way to make sure the RTV is completely sealing the plate!)
After peeling off the insulation, I discovered the top metal of the water tank was rusted severely. I removed the rust scale with a prybar fork as best as I could. No holes as I can see. I then treated the water tank exterior with Ospho, which chemically kills the rust, turning it black. I think it was caused by the leaking RTV seal on the cover plate, which allowed the insulation to get and stay wet.
I have an old farmhouse built in 1917, which has had about all of the upgrades that can be made to make it more energy efficient. i.e. R32 attic insulation, drop ceilings to 8' from 10', R-19 in floors, storm windows, blower door test / replaced leaky forced air duct work, weather calking everywhere imaginable. Total living space around 1800 sq. ft.
I live in North Arkansas where the average winter hi/low temperature is between 26 and 50 degrees. I average burning 7 - 8 cords per year. To compare, I averaged 800-1000 gallons of propane the last 2 years I exclusively used it. I mostly buy my wood. We like our house around 76 degrees F in the winter. I fire my boiler at 150 max, but will raise it to 160 in below freezing temps.
I made the fan damper and drywell Ranco thermostat modifications the second year in service. Absolutely a necessity. Last week I took the burn chamber / ash doors to a machine shop to weld a 3/4" track around the perimeters so I can install a rope gasket on each. I tried using a rope gasket before, but it would not stay in place after a few weeks of use. The track will give more surface for the adhesive to hold it in place.
I also just re plumbed the hot water coil to split the cold water supply on the hot water heater, forcing the cold water to circulate through the boiler coil before entering the hot water tank's cold water pipe. The setup has ball valves to allow the loop to be closed off when the boiler is not fired. I may need a mixing valve here to prevent scalding. I have not used the water coil the last two years, as my Armstrong circulating pump quit working.
My main question is for replacing insulation. I see pictures on the web of various brands with what appears to be 8-10" of batts surrounding the water tank. The Shaver had maybe 2", with the reflective radiant foil on one side. The bottom was not insulated. There were 6" fiberglass un-faced batts on the top, with the radiant foil overlaid on top of the fiberglass.
Would I save fire wood by adding 2" x 2" stringers on top of the skin frame, and insulating with 6" of fiberglass batts on the side walls? Or would Polyisocyanurate Rigid Foam Insulation Board work better? Will the 180 degree water melt it? Is the foil radiant barrier on top give much help in retaining heat? Any other suggestions on better efficiency?
Sorry about the rambling on before getting to my question.
Thanks
Jerry
9
Shaver Furnace / Re: Rusted Lid
« on: February 18, 2015, 06:34:33 PM »Greg,Have to agree with you about the price and service opinion.
Thanks for your offer to help. I have called my dealer again......and Randy again.......and I've talked to the President of the company and his secretary Melba.
Still no lid. I realize it is not your problem. but I will give them some more time before I call you.
this is so frustrating, A company that will not back up what they sell. My advice to anyone looking to buy an Outdoor Wood burner is although Shaver may have a good price, price isn't everything. they are absolutely terrible as far as customer service is concerned.
I have a Shaver furnace that I purchased 6 or 7 years ago. I found out quickly that to get a good seal on the lid on top, I had to remove the outer skin of the roof siding so I could see well enough to get the silicone where it needed to be to seal. Otherwise I was working by feel, and since the lid fit poorly, I would end up with a small hole in the calk, leading to wet insulation. For adding chemical, I put a 90 deg. el and a 6-8" pipe nipple on the unused top port and added a bell reducer with a plug. The bell reducer is 3/4 x 2". The 2" opening is up and has the plug. I keep it hand tight, with a liberal amount of grease on the threads to prevent seizing.
After the first year I added a solenoid controlled damper from a company in WI to replace the butterfly fan damper. Sure made the furnace perform much better, but it may have led to a warping of the grate and the floor above the ash chamber. The grate warped up, not down.
Overall it has performed okay, but every time I throw wood in the firebox, I wonder if a weld is going to fail.
10
Equipment / Converting tractor log splitter for use with PTO driven pump
« on: October 13, 2011, 07:22:28 PM »
I have a tractor 3pt mount log splitter that I want to convert to use with a pto driven hyd pump. I plan to use it on a Ford 8N. This tractor does not have the live hydrolics that my Massey Ferguson had. The ferguson gave out, so onto a new plan.
I have found several PTO driven pumps at Northern Tool. One is linked here.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329702_200329702
I would also need a tank to go with the pump for the fluid. Link here for a 12 gal.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200466866_200466866
Has any one here attempted and succeeded in converting a log splitter from internal tractor hydrolics to external hydrolics? Is this pump adequate? Should I step up to the 21 gpm unit?
Or just forget it, selling my 3 pt and buying a gas engine unit.
Thanks
I have found several PTO driven pumps at Northern Tool. One is linked here.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329702_200329702
I would also need a tank to go with the pump for the fluid. Link here for a 12 gal.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200466866_200466866
Has any one here attempted and succeeded in converting a log splitter from internal tractor hydrolics to external hydrolics? Is this pump adequate? Should I step up to the 21 gpm unit?
Or just forget it, selling my 3 pt and buying a gas engine unit.
Thanks
11
Shaver Furnace / Re: water pump on stove
« on: October 08, 2010, 12:17:25 PM »
My water pump turns on when wall thermostat calls for heat. Set up via relay. When I installed outdoor boiler, I too was concerned anout cold air from water pump lag time, but reality is, convection currents always keeps warm water in the heat exchanger. My unit never blows cold air, even if thermostat hasn't called for heat in a while.
I think many are set up to run continuous when hot water heat exchanger is on the same line as the furnace heat exchanger. My heat exchangers are on seperate lines / pumps.
Either way works fine.
Jerry
I think many are set up to run continuous when hot water heat exchanger is on the same line as the furnace heat exchanger. My heat exchangers are on seperate lines / pumps.
Either way works fine.
Jerry
12
Shaver Furnace / Re: Door Latch
« on: March 07, 2010, 06:33:53 PM »
I use a 3/4" round rare earth magnet. Works great.
Jerry
Jerry
13
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Suggested Water Temperature on Boiler
« on: October 28, 2009, 11:01:38 AM »
willieg,
Thanks for the feedback. Good idea on the fan box. This should take care of my draft. I saw a similiar set-up on a door fan in the Home Made furnace forum.
I read some of the posts in the Shaver forum. Sounds like a few had bad experiences with Shaver. I ordered my furnace in early September 2007 and received it the last week in November 2007. I traveled to the factory on a Saturday morning and met with Billy Shaver. The factory looked like a welding shop. No better or worse than most other metal working shops I have been in. Their customer / technical service needs improvement. No excuse for not returning phone calls.
Overall my experience has been ok with the Shaver 165. It does need some improvements like the draft fan. As long as the welds hold up and gets proper care, this furnace should last me a long time.
Jerry
Thanks for the feedback. Good idea on the fan box. This should take care of my draft. I saw a similiar set-up on a door fan in the Home Made furnace forum.
I read some of the posts in the Shaver forum. Sounds like a few had bad experiences with Shaver. I ordered my furnace in early September 2007 and received it the last week in November 2007. I traveled to the factory on a Saturday morning and met with Billy Shaver. The factory looked like a welding shop. No better or worse than most other metal working shops I have been in. Their customer / technical service needs improvement. No excuse for not returning phone calls.
Overall my experience has been ok with the Shaver 165. It does need some improvements like the draft fan. As long as the welds hold up and gets proper care, this furnace should last me a long time.
Jerry
14
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Suggested Water Temperature on Boiler
« on: October 27, 2009, 07:29:11 PM »
ckbetz,
Thanks for the reply. Have not considered the expansion / contraction cycles of the metal. Going to up my setting to 165 and see if boiler water starts to steam out the overflow tube.
Jerry
Thanks for the reply. Have not considered the expansion / contraction cycles of the metal. Going to up my setting to 165 and see if boiler water starts to steam out the overflow tube.
Jerry
15
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Suggested Water Temperature on Boiler
« on: October 27, 2009, 06:02:38 PM »
I have a Shaver 165 purchased in 2007. Last season I added a damper / solenoid on the fan to get better burn, and to close up the fan opening when the boiler thermostat is not calling for more heat.
My question is what is the optimum water temperature for the boiler to get a good burn. The factory owner suggested 140 was best. The shutter style damper required a low setting as the draft would cause the boiler water to steam off if little heat demand was required, such as in warmer weather.
Will a setting of 160-180 deg. provide for a better burn / less smoke than the 140 deg? I believe that the Hardy Heaters state that 180 deg. will provide a better fire restart when more heat is required.
I just replaced the factory RTV upper door gasket with a fiberglass rope gasket. The ash door gasket was replaced with RTV material. I also applied RTV sealant to the flange on the draft fan. This has almost eliminated any drafts, which cause the water temp to rise when the draft fan is off.
On the Hardys Heaters, I have noticed they have very little or no draft when they are at idle. I have not been able to replicate this on my Shaver. Maybe I am geting some draft through the motor windings on the draft fan.
Thanks
Jerry
My question is what is the optimum water temperature for the boiler to get a good burn. The factory owner suggested 140 was best. The shutter style damper required a low setting as the draft would cause the boiler water to steam off if little heat demand was required, such as in warmer weather.
Will a setting of 160-180 deg. provide for a better burn / less smoke than the 140 deg? I believe that the Hardy Heaters state that 180 deg. will provide a better fire restart when more heat is required.
I just replaced the factory RTV upper door gasket with a fiberglass rope gasket. The ash door gasket was replaced with RTV material. I also applied RTV sealant to the flange on the draft fan. This has almost eliminated any drafts, which cause the water temp to rise when the draft fan is off.
On the Hardys Heaters, I have noticed they have very little or no draft when they are at idle. I have not been able to replicate this on my Shaver. Maybe I am geting some draft through the motor windings on the draft fan.
Thanks
Jerry
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