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[Bill G]

Guys,

     First reading it sounded better than cold beer on 4 July...but, after comparin notes and thinking, (the difficult part), I don't see any benefit in it.  When would we get that roarin fire to self-clean? 

     If the CB guys were to sit by their OWB gassers and played with the pulse timers every time the water dropped, say 3 deg., they would get the same effect.  To gassify correctly, we need that full-wide open burn. 

     I can't afford to fool around with what I got, but am interested non-the-less.  Once again I will put my trust with my fellow forum members to guide me in the right direction.  So who are the giuneu pigs for this new controller?  Please do not remain hush-hush on your findings.

     Ten "new joins" just may pop up here, singing praises.  I need to see praises from somebody(s) that has been on here much longer than me. 

     Show me! And I ain't from Missouri, although I'm sure it's nice there!

[ELEproducts.com]

Thanks to everyone for expressing their comments with the i723 product.  It has been very useful and informative.   As far as the creosote concerns, the factory installed ON-OFF control with differential promotes creosote on systems that are installed properly by the dealers, or a properly installed customer system where everything is correct and chosen components sized appropriately (our dealers are doing a good job out there).  These systems can be somewhat more efficient.  That being said,  the factory ON-OFF system can allow long soak times which on moderate days can allow the fire to extinguish. These long soak time and shorter burn times aids in creosote formation.  The formation of creosote is less on colder days where there is more demand on the installed system where the fire is actually burning more frequently, with longer burn times and shorter soak times.

The i723 does not have any soak time, but rather a controlled varying burn all the time.  On colder days, when there is enough demand on the system that the formation of creosote is actually less than the factory ON-OFF controlled system. On moderate days, there may be very little burn needed to maintain the water temperature.  i723 firmware monitors this data.  If the system has been running with very little burn, less than ~25% capacity for 10 consecutive hours, the i723 will allow the water temperature to drop (y) degrees below the set point. Once this has happened, a full return to set point temperature is carried out allowing for a higher intensity controlled cycle.  This “utility” incorporated keeps the creosote in check and the user does not feel interruptions with their heating.

By maintaining a steady burn with minimal fluctuations, fuel efficiency is also increased.  Just like driving your car.  Sure, you can get from point A to B by full, wide open throttle then releasing the throttle (ON-OFF) control while maintaining a differential of speed, say between 45 mph thru 55 mph.  You can save a lot of energy by smoothly varying the gas pedal, metering the fuel needed to drive ~ 55mph.

[RSI]

Thanks to everyone for expressing their comments with the i723 product.  It has been very useful and informative.   As far as the creosote concerns, the factory installed ON-OFF control with differential promotes creosote on systems that are installed properly by the dealers, or a properly installed customer system where everything is correct and chosen components sized appropriately (our dealers are doing a good job out there).  These systems can be somewhat more efficient.  That being said,  the factory ON-OFF system can allow long soak times which on moderate days can allow the fire to extinguish. These long soak time and shorter burn times aids in creosote formation.  The formation of creosote is less on colder days where there is more demand on the installed system where the fire is actually burning more frequently, with longer burn times and shorter soak times.

The i723 does not have any soak time, but rather a controlled varying burn all the time.  On colder days, when there is enough demand on the system that the formation of creosote is actually less than the factory ON-OFF controlled system. On moderate days, there may be very little burn needed to maintain the water temperature.  i723 firmware monitors this data.  If the system has been running with very little burn, less than ~25% capacity for 10 consecutive hours, the i723 will allow the water temperature to drop (y) degrees below the set point. Once this has happened, a full return to set point temperature is carried out allowing for a higher intensity controlled cycle.  This “utility” incorporated keeps the creosote in check and the user does not feel interruptions with their heating.

By maintaining a steady burn with minimal fluctuations, fuel efficiency is also increased.  Just like driving your car.  Sure, you can get from point A to B by full, wide open throttle then releasing the throttle (ON-OFF) control while maintaining a differential of speed, say between 45 mph thru 55 mph.  You can save a lot of energy by smoothly varying the gas pedal, metering the fuel needed to drive ~ 55mph.

Have you tested any of this or is it all theory?

I don't see what you are doing to be any different than a controlled air leak in the furnace. If you leave the ash drawer open the right amount (with a steady heat load on the boiler) it would hold the temperature steady but it will be smoking the whole time and making a LOT of creosote.
When these boilers shut down into idle mode there is very little creosote building up. If a boiler with good door gaskets has been idling long enough you can open the door and there is almost no smoke in there. No smoke will mean there is no creosote.

Having a slow ramp up and ramp down speed for the fan might make it more efficient and cut down on smoke but trying to keep steady temperature will do just the opposite.

If you have a working test model and can show us test results is the only way to convince us (or at least me) that it will work.

Your comparison to a car is not even close. On a car you are controlling the fuel to the motor as well as the air.

[Scott7m]

 

Preach it brotha!

[gspren]

Are any of the major OWB manufacturers considering this? I would like to know their opinion on this control and whether or not they would recomend it on a new or used unit that is still under warranty. If Portage & Main recomended it I would feel better about trying it on mine!

[Bill G]

     Simple answer to the original question,  "Is anybody interested in this?" 

     The answer is yes!

     Now we need to see some real world testing results on the most popular units out there. 

     It seems as though you are very close to bringing this control to market?  Maybe I read into your posts too much to make that assumption?  Some folks on this forum have said they would like to give your prototype a whirl.  It seems like a good approach for you to get your product installed on a whole variety of makes/models.  Don't see how else you could ever get feedback from so many different users. 

[Scott7m]

Are any of the major OWB manufacturers considering this? I would like to know their opinion on this control and whether or not they would recomend it on a new or used unit that is still under warranty. If Portage & Main recomended it I would feel better about trying it on mine!

No companies won't consider this because they know it won't work.  Anyone who understands how these work knows it won't work.

[ELEproducts.com]

Hi,

Yes, very close to market.  Working on having the temperature logging data available before Monday 30th, next week on a real stove application.  Hinging though on Fex-X delivering a broken K-thermocouple for the logger on Thursday or Friday. 

I did attend a function last fall where there were, if I recall 3 or 4 manufactures representing their OWB’s.  After a lengthy discussion about one stove manufacturer, I did expand on my ideas about advanced controlling designs.  He did respond that there was a microcomputer version that they were toying with, that is all he would comment on.  Maybe someone can help determine which manufacturer this was?  Main thing I recall was that the unit was green (many are)  and it had light colored fire brick inside?  If I review my notes, I may have a business card?  It was the regional rep I had the discussion with.  You will see these controls on OEM stoves, it will be required to meet ever tightening emission requirements.     

I have used these industrial PID controllers for over 20 years on precision electronics manufacturing process controls.  They are truly wonderful.

[martyinmi]

Shawn,
   I will enthusiastically try this product on my boiler, knowing full that it could void my warranty-and I'm not being sarcastic here. I can see the benefits on a gasser like mine. The beauty of the P&M gassers are their inherit simplicity. Incorporating this control with my existing one could potentially yield some results that are favorable, and it would be very easy to do. I agree with Scott and RSI though, that a conventional boiler doesn't appear to be the best candidate for a control system of this nature. This product used in conjunction with my combustion analyzer could potentially have some benefits at certain points of the burn cycle, so long as emissions aren't affected too badly.   

[ELEproducts.com]

Thank you for having an open mind Marty and willing to try something new..  It’s a necessity for being successful in life. 

I have information that HeatMaster now has this variable speed closed loop draft motor electronic system for 2012. Maybe some of the dealers know for sure with details?

Shawn

[mcarter]

Theoretically, if you had a circulation pump with variable flow rate up to 50gpm, would this element of the OWB system have more relevance to a PID controller than the draft element?

I think PID controllers are useful, assuming it can auto-tune, in controlling certain elements. FLCs and MPCs are superior in steam boiler applications but they control flow.

To be convincing, I think whatever data you have collected would need to demonstrate the following:
1. Safety
2. Improved fuel efficiency
3. Cost effective
4. A picture of that firebox after 3 or 4 days

It appears you have already printed circuit boards.  I wouldn't think that you would have proceeded to that stage without having collected data.  What data do you have at this point?

This is a very interesting thread.

[ELEproducts.com]

Mcarter.  You are ahead of the game here.  Yes, I do have complete pre production products.  It’s just testing time now. Fixed startup PID variables are used to minimize temperature oscillations (hunting)  as much as possible before system can be realized with best case variables found during the auto tune process. The parameters will self tune (auto-tune) within a few heating cycles after set point is achieved while factoring in measured ambient temperature. The i723 is also user tunable via USB interface (this may not be a option on production units) and also with function routines like found on a more complicated watch. (hold button x down for 30 seconds and manual adjust the PID prams, overriding the auto-tune with user selected variables visible on the LCD display.

[Scott7m]

Give one to ol Marty, he'll be a good tester...  On a gasser at least

[Bill G]

    Second that motion!  Marty, he's willing and able to say good or ad.  Un-biased is the word I'm looking for.

Shawn,

       Nobody would invest in production, or even pre-production run on an un-proven product without some serious testing.  I gotta believe you have some "real world" results.... so please share some of your findings.  "Joe Blow burns a Shaver 3500HD and previously burned 96 cords every 10 days.  Down to 1/2 a cord every 10 days now". Less creosote and cleaner firebox. 
            NOT picking on Shaver owners, just an example!!!

       Have to think only a minute minority of OWB owners play around with forums such as these, but enough to speed along sales if you have the "new, sexier, cat's meow". 

       Shawn, not many of us are against change, just very cautious about jumping on the latest, greatest, technology that comes down the pike. 

       Suggest you come up with an arrangement with Marty, for a 30 day test drive.  Yeah, that's it, lets get Marty!  Or am I thinking of Mickey??  Marty's willing and as stated, fair and honest. 

       In the mean time, how 'bout revealing your test results, on a couple makes/models?