Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Roger2561 on January 02, 2018, 03:23:00 AM
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This morning we've had 2 brief power outages and it was that moment that I forgot to get a new battery for the generator. This generator is a whole house, auto start unit, 15K. Thankfully the power came back on after a minute or 2. And, thankfully, the weather is supposed to moderate a bit for the next 2 or 3 days where it "should" be above zero (tropical). I think I'm okay if I stop by the parts place to pick it up on my way home from work. Gosh, if it's not one thing, it's another. I think this is going to be one of those years. Roger
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It would be worthwhile to put a jumper pack on the battery and switch the generator into manual mode so it runs for a couple hours to top off the battery until you get a replacement later.
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Kinda surprised it doesn’t have a trickle charger or battery tender built right into the generator.
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Be careful with a jumper pack. Had a client figure he'd start his generator by jumping off of his vehicle and ended up burning up his control panel on oil boiler, Taco relay along with various other items that showed up over his weekend stay. It was an expensive weekend when he got done. Trickle charger would be a much safer way to go.
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How did jumping it from a vehicle kill all that stuff?
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I'm not sure how that happened. Never did get it fully explained to me.
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She has new battery, runs great for now. I'll see what happens Saturday morning when the temps are supposed to reach in the negative mid 20's. I'm hoping she gets through her weekly test without any issues. Roger
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How did jumping it from a vehicle kill all that stuff?
Years ago, I worked in a mechanic shop at the college I attended for some extra cash. One of the older mechanics there taught me to never crank a dead vehicle while the jumping vehicle was running. Only one vehicle running at a time. It prevents an electrical spike in both systems as two running alternators attempt to control the voltage while they fight against each other, particularly when the newly introduced one first starts up. This could be exactly how that guy fried sensitive electrical components when he jump started his generator from a running vehicle.
So for jumping a vehicle from another, hook them up, turn the donor vehicle on and let it charge the discharged battery for a while, then turn it off and attempt to start the dead vehicle.
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juddspaintballs - thanks for the tip on starting a vehicle when needing to give it a jump start. This discussion brings me back to my EMS days. We were called to a residence a few Christmas Eves ago for someone who had a battery explode in the face. It was a really cold morning and the young man grabbed another battery to jump start his car. Something went very wrong, it exploded in his face when he hooked it up. Pour guy, he was agony. Roger
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Geez. Should probably buy a lottery ticket. 15 years of racing and demo derby and mudding and other motor vehicle obsessions, I can't even begin to count the amount of times I've jumped a stone dead battery from either a boost pack or running vehicle. Even a few sketchy ones when jumpers weren't available and we just used Romex house wire lol. Haven't been sploded yet! Better start counting the blessings
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The starter circuit would be completely separate from the generator output so I don't see how it could do anything. The only thing I can think of is that it was turning over slow and putting out power while cranking which could be a problem.
That may have been a problem leaving the engine running while starting the dead vehicle on old stuff but doubt it would hurt any on anything made in the last 50+ years.
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I had 4 batteries blow up on us one day thankfully no one was hurt. We were going to respond to a fire and the pumper wouldn't start so we jumped it with a the jump setting on the battery booster and one spark and boom battery parts everywhere. Figured out later that the trickle charger had dried out the batteries producing hydrogen gas. that was quite the experience. Very careful jumping things since.
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I know there was a part on the generator that was damaged/replaced. Not sure if it was a voltage regulator or not. Judd was correct about the sensitive electrical components. I've also seen twice with Budarus gas boilers where they are very fickle about running on generated power and it not being "clean" enough. Both cases have been resolved.
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I have a 21K whole house standby generator. It has a built in charger to maintain the battery voltage. I also added a wrap around battery warmer and carb heater which is temperature activated below 35 degrees. I also changed my exercise option to only cycle once every 2 weeks which is frequent enough for me. The electrical specs for my generator have a cleaner rating for the total harmonic distortion than my utility provides so operating electronic equipment is not an issue.
Standby generators have to have an automatic transfer switch which completely isolates it from the homes system when utility power is on. Unless it is improperly installed there shouldn't be anyway to damage anything in the home by jumping the battery.
Also when jumping any battery the last connection should be the ground lead on the vehicle with the dead battery at a remote point from the battery. All lead acid batteries produce hydrogen gas which is flammable and that is why you never make the ground or last connection on the battery itself which almost always causes a spark. Running the jumping vehicle while performing the jumping should not be an issue when done as described above.
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I have a 21K whole house standby generator. It has a built in charger to maintain the battery voltage. I also added a wrap around battery warmer and carb heater which is temperature activated below 35 degrees. I also changed my exercise option to only cycle once every 2 weeks which is frequent enough for me. The electrical specs for my generator have a cleaner rating for the total harmonic distortion than my utility provides so operating electronic equipment is not an issue.
Standby generators have to have an automatic transfer switch which completely isolates it from the homes system when utility power is on. Unless it is improperly installed there shouldn't be anyway to damage anything in the home by jumping the battery.
Also when jumping any battery the last connection should be the ground lead on the vehicle with the dead battery at a remote point from the battery. All lead acid batteries produce hydrogen gas which is flammable and that is why you never make the ground or last connection on the battery itself which almost always causes a spark. Running the jumping vehicle while performing the jumping should not be an issue when done as described above.
schoppy - Thanks for the info. Where can I get a wrap around battery warmer and carb heater? My generator dealer from whom I purchased it is no longer in business. Roger
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I purchased my battery warmer on line. You just need the physical dimensions of your battery to be sure it will fit ok.
My carb heater is a factory accessory for my generator which is a Kohler and I also found it online.
The thermostat control I purchased at Menards called a Thermocube. It has 2 receptacles and turns on at 35 degrees and off at 45 degrees.
I can see the end of my generator that has the electrical wiring in it from my spare bedroom. Using multiple receptacle adapters I plugged in L.E.D. night lights to show me the 120 volt power is on at night and when it gets below 35 outside the other light comes on showing power to my heaters. No need for me to go outside in cold weather to check for station power to the generator or my heater accessories.
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I purchased my battery warmer on line. You just need the physical dimensions of your battery to be sure it will fit ok.
My carb heater is a factory accessory for my generator which is a Kohler and I also found it online.
The thermostat control I purchased at Menards called a Thermocube. It has 2 receptacles and turns on at 35 degrees and off at 45 degrees.
I can see the end of my generator that has the electrical wiring in it from my spare bedroom. Using multiple receptacle adapters I plugged in L.E.D. night lights to show me the 120 volt power is on at night and when it gets below 35 outside the other light comes on showing power to my heaters. No need for me to go outside in cold weather to check for station power to the generator or my heater accessories.
Thanks for the info. I need to do some research to find stuff like that for my generator seeing it sits out in the open with nothing to buffer the wind from hitting dead on. Thanks again. Roger
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Wonder if a battery warmer, strapped to the bottom of my 8K gas generator, would keep it warm enough so I could still turn it over at -25C? I gave up during last night's power outage, I wasn't sure if the pull rope or my back were going to give out first. Fortunately the boys had the juice on after a couple of hours.
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Wonder if a battery warmer, strapped to the bottom of my 8K gas generator, would keep it warm enough so I could still turn it over at -25C? I gave up during last night's power outage, I wasn't sure if the pull rope or my back were going to give out first. Fortunately the boys had the juice on after a couple of hours.
It would certainly be worth a try, get the mat style instead of the wrap. I’m not sure what small engine manufacturers think about synthetic oil in a small engine, but that certainly could be worth looking into as well.
I have a radiant style LP heater I place next to my portable if it doesn’t want to start, being radiant requires zero juice and warms the crankcase up fast.
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If I remember correctly my battery warmer was under it and all 4 sides too.
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Blanket type - good point; also doubt my generator has a port for a heater, like an engine block would have.
Now I just need a thermostat-enabled AC plug, so I only heat the generator below 0 F. I know I've started it at that temperature before. Maybe there's something in the block heater marketplace, for powering a car block heater only when needed? Or other thermostat options? Help appreciated.
Blair
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I was in my local Home Depot today and I saw a receptacle that plugs into an AC outlet for running icemelt cables on gutters I believe it was made by Frost King would probably work good for your application it has a thermostat built into it and it wasn't very expensive I believe like $18
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Thanks, I'll follow up on that.
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So the Canadian version of HD has such a unit. $80 clams, and utterly terrible reviews. I'll keep looking, thanks for the idea!
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I have a briggs and straton 16 kw generator and it came (I paid extra I believe) a cold weather kit-battery warmer and trickle charger, oil heater, carb warmer(it uses propane) that adjust to outside temps. warranted to start at -20F (Canadian province) perhaps your model and make offers such an add on?
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All this generator talk got me thinking I haven't heard my unit run lately. I went out to test run it and my starter just clicked. The battery voltage reads good and all connections are tight. Tomorrow I will try a different battery in case it has a bad cell but if that doesn't do it I will be calling for service. It is still under warranty but I hope it isn't anything big.
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I have a 1500 watt magnetic block heater that I use on a couple of the tractors and the diesel welder when it is very cold. Warms the oil enough to get them to turn over easier. I'm sure you could put that on a T-stat plug or plug it in manually when it was needed. But then again a lot of the new small engines have aluminum blocks so I'm not sure how that would work out.
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When I arrived home from work yesterday evening, I saw signs that the generator had started itself sometime during the day. I had replaced the battery with a new one, tested it and all worked great. That new battery made all the difference. BUT, I'm going to purchase one of those battery blankets for the generator as well as my tractor. Roger
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Well I tried a different battery and my generator fired right off. Checked the cells and they were all dry like it had been overcharged. My generator has been in service since February 1 of 2016 and I purchased the battery in July of 2015. The battery had a 40 month free replacement so I got a new one and installed it and the generator operated fine.
I checked the charging voltage and it was 14.05 volts. I made the sure cells of the new battery were full of fluid and charged it before installing it. The generator charger was still charging it at 14+ volts even though the battery was fully charged. I contacted the factory service rep who did the start up of my unit and he said this is normal and they only expect a battery to last 3 years max. He said the voltage stays at 14 volts but the amperage drops way down. It is no wonder a battery will only last 3 years if it never stops charging completely and doesn't go into standby mode.
I will be checking electrolyte level in the battery every summer but that may not prevent failure. My battery warmer blanket only goes around the sides but does a good job of keeping the battery luke warm in cold weather.
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Not sure the rep is completely wrong, if your checking voltage while most any vehicle is running its not unusual to find 13.8 to 14.2 volts. its the amperage that counts in this scenario. Three step alternators are a different story.
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I guess I have never checked the voltage of my vehicles batteries when they are running but my volt meter on the dash doesn't show 14 volts. I have checked voltage on batteries when I have had smart chargers on them and they were right around 13.2 to 13.4 volts which is just about right for a fully charged battery.
Finally got my whole house air to air heat exchanger running today after just hanging there for 4 years. We'll see if it reduces the humidity like I'm hoping.
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From what I remember, a fully charged automotive type battery should read 12.7 volts. 12.0 volts is heavily discharged. To charge a battery to 12.7 volts, the alternator needs to exceed that voltage to the tune of at least 0.5v, or right around 13.2 volts. Most alternators for 12 volt systems put out between 13.4 and 14.4 volts to charge the battery fully, and often newer vehicles will sense the voltage at the battery and regulate the voltage down as the battery nears a full charge. This is why the reading you'll see on your dash quite often is in the low 13's (that, and the point in the electrical system where they test the voltage). The excess voltage doesn't hurt the battery since it takes more than the fully charged voltage to charge each cell due to efficiency losses. The water and acid help keep things cool in the cells, but eventually all batteries will die. The lead and acid will react with each other enough that they can't react as strongly anymore and you'll get a battery that can't hold full charge or a dead cell that will allow you to read proper voltage but will not pass enough amperage to start a motor.