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Author Topic: Global warming, climate change? Article  (Read 32399 times)

slimjim

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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2014, 04:28:02 AM »

  WE ARE 17 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT, the EPA and the Green movement along with greed and government regulations have driven our jobs to China where there is very little effort to protect our environment worldwide
Are there any patriotic American citizens within this forum?

Is it solely the Green movement and "Governments" fault that manufacturing jobs have gone overseas? No.

Are American corporations exempt from country loyalty and patriotism? Evidently... Imagine the income tax revenues if all corporations brought manufacturing back to our shores. Our economy would be thriving. With the jobs brought back we could pay down the debt and reduce the handout programs due to job availability. It would be a win all around.

So how bout ya start bashing those who help the citizens of other countries by giving them jobs while firing American citizens.
   Homerglide did you not read my post, I never said that it's the green movement or gov's fault entirely, I also mentioned GREED and Regulation, the first man that I ever heard mention two phrases that I detest was Ronald Reagan ( NEW WORLD ORDER and FREE TRADE ) He was for both, in your opinion has free trade helped the common folks here in THESE UNITED STATES in any way, I think not, it along with greedy politicians on the take and greedy corporations driving service oriented small business out of business with cheap labor from overseas and overregulation here at home, we as patriotic Americans will have a very difficult time ever being on top of the world again, even if all Americans could afford and did buy only American made products to support our nation those greedy corps and politicians would find a way to undermine the movement, I guess that I will never understand why anybody would ever trust in ANY government to the point that lots of us do today. This country was built with sweat , blood, hard work and great risks to secure true LIBERTY, we now have a government that nobody in their right mind would trust enough to make those risky investments that would be needed to bring those jobs back to this socialist utopia. I have personally seen what govt can do with kneejerk reaction and ignorant rulemaking in our statehouse, Have you ever stood in the legislative chambers of your state and argued a point of any sort, I have and let me tell you the waste of time, money, and resources that I have seen made me a true LIBERTARIAN and almost an anarchist, we do need some govt to keep the peace but do we truly need 46000 pages of tax law alone, I think a good start might be the TEN COMMANDMENTS and we could proceed from there
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2014, 05:58:32 AM »

 :post:

Term limits for all politicians. Preferably one in office, one in jail.
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2014, 11:07:55 AM »

Where is your proof? 

So 200 years ago it was what?? 

Normal, my point exactly, who can say what's normal

Co2 at times was 10x higher than it is now and some of those times where during ice ages.  The fact is the climate has been far warmer than it is now, and also colder

Anyone who believes this global warming stuff for more than political fluff and can't say, we really have no way of knowing if it's natural or not, is drinking some major Kool aid.. 

But this is pointless,  no human will ever convince me it's anything other than political bull and scientist thinking they know things that turn out not to be so.....
Proof of warming?  In the temperature record.  There is direct instrumental measurement, as well as proxy reconstructions.

200 years ago it was globally cooler.  "Normal" is ambiguous, which is why it isn't used in climate issues other than those who are misunderstanding the conversation.

CO2 being higher in the past correlated with lower solar output levels, keeping with the fact that CO2 is a large climate driver.  In recent times however (past 450,000 years or so) we have blown the CO2 levels off the chart:

   

That said, the earth being warmer or cooler in the past is in no way proof that man has no influence presently.  It is flawed logic.

Global warming is happening it is proven fact.  Those that choose to stick their heads in the sand and not look at the data a fools at best.  Remaining ignorant is something that happens on the topic quite often, and it shows how sad people's desire to educate themselves is.

Neal
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2014, 11:12:43 AM »

I certainly hope it has warmed in the last 200 years considering right before that was the little ice age which lasted roughly 500 years.

http://www.eh-resources.org/timeline/timeline_lia.html

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/344106/Little-Ice-Age-LIA


The world would be a much hungrier place now if we were still dealing with the weather they had from roughly the 1300's to the 1800's. I can't find the article now, but a historian even contributes the high fatality of the Black Death as being brought on by failing crops at the start of the little ice age. People that are malnourished are far more susceptible to infections that those that are well fed.
A more indicative display of th LIA, which in fact wasn't an iceage at all.  It also followed a warm period.



Neal
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2014, 07:09:02 PM »

Where is your proof? 

So 200 years ago it was what?? 

Normal, my point exactly, who can say what's normal

Co2 at times was 10x higher than it is now and some of those times where during ice ages.  The fact is the climate has been far warmer than it is now, and also colder

Anyone who believes this global warming stuff for more than political fluff and can't say, we really have no way of knowing if it's natural or not, is drinking some major Kool aid.. 

But this is pointless,  no human will ever convince me it's anything other than political bull and scientist thinking they know things that turn out not to be so.....
Proof of warming?  In the temperature record.  There is direct instrumental measurement, as well as proxy reconstructions.

  "Normal" is ambiguous
Those that choose to stick their heads in the sand and not look at the data a fools at best.  Remaining ignorant is something that happens on the topic quite often, and it shows how sad people's desire to educate themselves is.

Neal, you are talking out of both sides of your cake hole, my friend.
When you attempt to create a "normal" by use of graphs and your borrowed narratives(yep, I can google too) to prove your points, and than state that normal is "ambiguous", it tends to make one wonder if you might be just be disagreeing to be disagreeable? Or maybe arguing to be argumentative?

On a side note....If you'd ever like the opportunity to win over even one person on this site(or anyone anywhere for that matter) to your perceived notions of what seems logical to you, you'll need to depart from the condescending attitude, speak with people, not down to them, and lastly, but most importantly, don't resort to name calling. Giving folks a label (calling them/us fools) and insulting our aptitude by using the word "ignorant" only proves that you are an individual who lacks redeemable character.
 
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2014, 08:25:22 AM »

Where is your proof? 

So 200 years ago it was what?? 

Normal, my point exactly, who can say what's normal

Co2 at times was 10x higher than it is now and some of those times where during ice ages.  The fact is the climate has been far warmer than it is now, and also colder

Anyone who believes this global warming stuff for more than political fluff and can't say, we really have no way of knowing if it's natural or not, is drinking some major Kool aid.. 

But this is pointless,  no human will ever convince me it's anything other than political bull and scientist thinking they know things that turn out not to be so.....
Proof of warming?  In the temperature record.  There is direct instrumental measurement, as well as proxy reconstructions.

  "Normal" is ambiguous
Those that choose to stick their heads in the sand and not look at the data a fools at best.  Remaining ignorant is something that happens on the topic quite often, and it shows how sad people's desire to educate themselves is.

Neal, you are talking out of both sides of your cake hole, my friend.
When you attempt to create a "normal" by use of graphs and your borrowed narratives(yep, I can google too) to prove your points, and than state that normal is "ambiguous", it tends to make one wonder if you might be just be disagreeing to be disagreeable? Or maybe arguing to be argumentative?

On a side note....If you'd ever like the opportunity to win over even one person on this site(or anyone anywhere for that matter) to your perceived notions of what seems logical to you, you'll need to depart from the condescending attitude, speak with people, not down to them, and lastly, but most importantly, don't resort to name calling. Giving folks a label (calling them/us fools) and insulting our aptitude by using the word "ignorant" only proves that you are an individual who lacks redeemable character.
I do understand that I am condescending at times, a flaw I do admit to having. 

Perhaps you, like many others who expound that somehow these graphs are based on a "normal temperature of the earth" simply don't understand or comprehend what they are telling you.  When the data is compared, a range of time is set as the baseline, this baseline can be set for an arbitrary length of time, however it does not change the shape of the data, simply where the baseline happens to be zeroed at.  I will help you understand the flaw in your argument below.

I have been interested in temp history for some time, and I use the UAH satellite data to create and continue making graphs, as I have for the past 3 or 4 years.  Below is a graph I have created with the global temp data from http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/temp-and-precip/upper-air/uahncdc.lt  :



As you can see, my graph, like many others out there has a 0 on it, and shows how the data has trended from that reference point by degrees celsius of temperature anomaly (how far from zero).  This zero line is created by setting the average of the 12 months of 1994 to zero/baseline/reference, and not classified as "normal temperature of the planet".  Check the above graph and see that top edge of the maroon line (calculated yearly average) for 1994 is right on the zero line.  Now, we can move that zero line up and down choosing any year, or group of years we wish to make our zero/baseline/reference.  However as I stated before, that will not change the shape or trend of the graph in any way.  I, like anyone else who makes or takes these graphs seriously does not claim that 1994 was the year that the earth was at a  normal temperature.  That is because we understand that "normal" doesn't exist, the planet has a very large range of temperatures through which it progresses, throughout history (as best we can tell from proxy data), and as it will into the future.

That said, the next time you accuse me of borrowing a narrative (I guess that is an accusation of not thinking for myself?), or talking out of both sides of my cake hole, you better put forth a little more research and understanding to ensure it isn't simply the airlock between your ears which is causing your bout of incomprehension, my friend.

As for myself labeling others, I damn well will do it.  If someone (not directly accusing anyone here, nor did I previously), wishes to espouse some ignorant nonsense about how we haven't warmed, or the planet doesn't show a warming trend over the past few hundred year I am going to call them on it.  I do apologize for not being the most loving person, and often times arrogant, but if people are going to make outlandish claims that I know to be inaccurate or false - that is something I will not apologize for.

Remaining ignorant about what is going on with our climate, or how we may be impacting it is not something that should be taken lightly.  To me that shows poor stewardship, and an intellectual dishonesty about the way we live our lives. 

Neal
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 08:37:13 AM by NaturallyAspirated »
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2014, 11:07:51 AM »

I say we see how hot we can get the place.  Once all the ice melts ill be able to get to the ocean much quicker.  Maybe once its warm enough I can garden all year round, i'll have one hell of a tan, unfortunately i won't be on here much since i will probably get rid of my OWB.  But i'll have to make sure i start burning alot of garbage to keep the planet temps up ; ).

I have no doubt that we effect the planet, as part of it we always will.  We effect it more than other creatures because of our sheer volume and power by way of intelligence.  We also have the power to realize this and correct our mistakes.  The problem is when people go overboard.  When you make a decision without looking at the economic backlashes you are setting up for an even worse disaster.  Regulations are needed or corporations would really screw stuff up, like they did lake Erie.  But when things start to tip to over-regulated to the point where you can't even build a new power plant because meeting new emissions standards is impossible then we are heading towards disaster.

What happens when energy prices skyrocket to the point of unaffordability?  Basically everything in our economy is tied in with this factor.  What reaction do you think the "mob" will have?  I don't think it will be a pleasant conversation over a cup of tea.  As things grow out of control the system will topple and then who knows what will result, but i doubt a high concern for the planet will go along with it.

We need a balance, just because something is bad for the environment doesn't mean we need to cut it out completely, if so then they oughta just wipe out all life on the planet.  Responsible control, we do what we can afford and as technology advances so does our ability to increase our efforts.

As for global warming, i don't think we even know what the result would be do we?  Higher water levels, more severe storms, death to some animals, but the way they play it; it will be the end of the world.  Who's to say the world might not be a generally more pleasant place to live at a higher temp? If not we all gotta die some day anyway ; )
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2014, 08:28:46 PM »

Milder: In the midst of the Sochi Olympics, the New York Times posted a wake-up piece about the future of snow skiing. According to the article's author, Porter Fox — an editor at Powder magazine and author of Deep: The Story of Skiing and the Future of Snow — climate change will not put an end to winter in the U.S., but it will significantly alter the way winter looks and feels. "The planet is getting hotter," he wrote. "Since 1970, the rate of winter warming per decade in the United States has been triple the rate of the previous 75 years, with the strongest trends in the Northern regions of the country. Nine of the 10 hottest years on record have occurred since 2000."
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2014, 11:15:49 PM »

I say we see how hot we can get the place.  Once all the ice melts ill be able to get to the ocean much quicker.  Maybe once its warm enough I can garden all year round, i'll have one hell of a tan, unfortunately i won't be on here much since i will probably get rid of my OWB.  But i'll have to make sure i start burning alot of garbage to keep the planet temps up ; ).

I have no doubt that we effect the planet, as part of it we always will.  We effect it more than other creatures because of our sheer volume and power by way of intelligence.  We also have the power to realize this and correct our mistakes.  The problem is when people go overboard.  When you make a decision without looking at the economic backlashes you are setting up for an even worse disaster.  Regulations are needed or corporations would really screw stuff up, like they did lake Erie.  But when things start to tip to over-regulated to the point where you can't even build a new power plant because meeting new emissions standards is impossible then we are heading towards disaster.

What happens when energy prices skyrocket to the point of unaffordability?  Basically everything in our economy is tied in with this factor.  What reaction do you think the "mob" will have?  I don't think it will be a pleasant conversation over a cup of tea.  As things grow out of control the system will topple and then who knows what will result, but i doubt a high concern for the planet will go along with it.

We need a balance, just because something is bad for the environment doesn't mean we need to cut it out completely, if so then they oughta just wipe out all life on the planet.  Responsible control, we do what we can afford and as technology advances so does our ability to increase our efforts.

As for global warming, i don't think we even know what the result would be do we?  Higher water levels, more severe storms, death to some animals, but the way they play it; it will be the end of the world.  Who's to say the world might not be a generally more pleasant place to live at a higher temp? If not we all gotta die some day anyway ; )

If you're ever in Northern Indiana, look me up and lets drink some beer. Preferably on a Wednesday, dollar beer night at my VFW.
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2014, 01:48:38 PM »

I amazes me that the government is worried about the smoke from my boiler, yet when they cleared the right of way that ultimately took our house for a new highway they did not sell the timber off  many acres, in fact they would not allow me to cut trees off my place to use for firewood.


Instead they doused them with diesel and burned thousands of dollars worth of timber and enough oak hickory and ash logs to last me 100 lifetimes of burning my owb...

I did manage to snag a few logs and drag them over onto our new place, although without permission.  The contractors left some for me to get, but officially I wasn't supposed to. 
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2014, 04:43:15 PM »

"CLIMATE CHANGE"  I just want to punch somebody when I hear that term.   As I remember it was around 2008 when I first heard that term.  Before that it was "GLOBAL WARMING", but since the average temps around that time had actually began to cool the leftist's whom are so adept at using language to manipulate and control the low information voters of this once great country needed to "CHANGE" the marketing of their theory.

Hell yes the climate is changing.   The world has been getting warmer on long term average since the last ice age.   There are scientists that say it's caused by human activity and scientists that say it is not.  If there are more scientists that say it is human caused than scientists that say it is not, is not "PROOF" that it is human caused.  Now the next question as martyinmi eluded to is there any incentive for the "scientists" to come up with opinions in sync with their funding.

Just because someone can put up graphs and charts showing the climate is warming is not proof we are the cause of it.   If we can and do influence the climate, the degree to which we effect it, is not and can not be proven.

Are we in the USA supposed to dramatically change our way of life unilaterally on the basis of a theory, when our biggest global competitors are doing nothing.   That's like having words with somebody in a bar and agreeing to step outside, but first tying both hands behind your back.



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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2014, 08:43:07 PM »

I do understand that I am condescending at times, a flaw I do admit to having. 

That said, the next time you accuse me of borrowing a narrative (I guess that is an accusation of not thinking for myself?), or talking out of both sides of my cake hole, you better put forth a little more research and understanding to ensure it isn't simply the airlock between your ears which is causing your bout of incomprehension, my friend.

As for myself labeling others, I damn well will do it.  If someone (not directly accusing anyone here, nor did I previously), wishes to espouse some ignorant nonsense about how we haven't warmed, or the planet doesn't show a warming trend over the past few hundred year I am going to call them on it.  I do apologize for not being the most loving person, and often times arrogant, but if people are going to make outlandish claims that I know to be inaccurate or false - that is something I will not apologize for.

Remaining ignorant about what is going on with our climate, or how we may be impacting it is not something that should be taken lightly.  To me that shows poor stewardship, and an intellectual dishonesty about the way we live our lives. 

Neal
[/quote]


Neal, would you agree this fellow (Roy Spencer) is without a doubt one of the most respected climatologists on our planet?

http://www.drroyspencer.com/my-global-warming-skepticism-for-dummies/

I grew up on a farm. Invasive insects are always a problem on a large dairy farm, and we are forced to employ systematic insecticides to prevent disease spread, commodity loss, as well as improve overall heard health.
Farmers are an ingenious bunch. They've/we've learned over the years that the best ways to bait insects are with food sources that are palatable to said insects. All the while they are feasting on a food source that they love, they are also ingesting a toxic poison.
Hence the 'ol saying "You catch more fly's with honey than with vinegar".

The above being said, let me give you a bit 'o friendly, free advice Neal.
The vast majority of folks who frequent this site possess far too much intelligence to blindly indulge in your feces coated poison.

Folks here are not ignorant (especially not the derogatory definition of the word that you've chosen), nor are we/they the incomprehensible, air locked fools that lack ethical stewardship qualities that you imagine.
When we see a spade, that's what we call it.

I have never been a fan of copying and pasting, so I don't do it often.
Folks who choose to clutter up nearly every post they make with links and graphs remind me of one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 08:48:06 PM by martyinmi »
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2014, 10:24:25 PM »

" climate change " just follow the money trail, and the politicians that beat the drum to get elected.

Thank heaven Canada did not sign the Kyoto Protocol, they followed the US lead, much to the chagrin of the under developed countries that wanted our money. Just another form of foreign aid.

So many companies are now " Green " companies.........

Like a soccer mom buying 4 big shiny ORGANIC apples for $7.50, instead of a bag of big shiny ones for $3.50.  She has been educated by the media that she is doing the right thing for her family. Not her fault.

However in many cases the difference between the organic farmer and the regular farmer is that the organic farmer " only sprays at night."

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and hopefully they have been objective enough to hear both sides of an argument before deciding which they believe in.

Graphs and charts, it is all " data mining " look for information that supports your cause and use it, ignore the info that doesn't. One scientist say yes, one says no. Fund me and I will do a 3 year study..........

Bob



 
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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2014, 05:17:59 PM »


Neal, would you agree this fellow (Roy Spencer) is without a doubt one of the most respected climatologists on our planet?

http://www.drroyspencer.com/my-global-warming-skepticism-for-dummies/
I would say he is very well known and respected yes.  He is also a skeptic, which is precisely why I use the data that he manipulates.

I grew up on a farm. Invasive insects are always a problem on a large dairy farm, and we are forced to employ systematic insecticides to prevent disease spread, commodity loss, as well as improve overall heard health.
Farmers are an ingenious bunch. They've/we've learned over the years that the best ways to bait insects are with food sources that are palatable to said insects. All the while they are feasting on a food source that they love, they are also ingesting a toxic poison.
Hence the 'ol saying "You catch more fly's with honey than with vinegar".

The above being said, let me give you a bit 'o friendly, free advice Neal.
The vast majority of folks who frequent this site possess far too much intelligence to blindly indulge in your feces coated poison.
I also grew up on a farm, and in fact still participate in our family farming enterprise. 

How you equate anything about your farming enterprise to the data that I presented and believe to be accurate and agree with (btw as does your buddy Roy!) to fecal coated poison is astounding.  You realize of course you just touted the work of "one of the most respected climatologist on the planet" as you say, as feces coated poison...   Now, you seem to have logged yourself square in the depths of an extremely hypocritical position.  Not the smartest debate move ever made I must say... 

If you consider agreeing with data procured by someone who is skeptical, and analyzing it for a clear trend over time as "blindly following" as I have done, I have no reply other than your inference is absurd, grossly inaccurate, and flat out wrong.
Folks here are not ignorant (especially not the derogatory definition of the word that you've chosen), nor are we/they the incomprehensible, air locked fools that lack ethical stewardship qualities that you imagine.
When we see a spade, that's what we call it.
I never said that "folks here" were ignorant, and stated as much previously.  Apparently you missed that.

Personally however, you do seem to suffer from ignorance, incomprehension, and airlock.  I'm calling a spade a spade here.

I have never been a fan of copying and pasting, so I don't do it often.
Folks who choose to clutter up nearly every post they make with links and graphs remind me of one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
I can imagine that you do not like someone posting up links to data and charts providing factual information, after all, it must clutter up your preconceived albeit incorrect argument point, and that's no good!



Neal
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NaturallyAspirated

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Re: Global warming, climate change? Article
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2014, 05:20:13 PM »

" climate change " just follow the money trail, and the politicians that beat the drum to get elected.

Thank heaven Canada did not sign the Kyoto Protocol, they followed the US lead, much to the chagrin of the under developed countries that wanted our money. Just another form of foreign aid.

So many companies are now " Green " companies.........

Like a soccer mom buying 4 big shiny ORGANIC apples for $7.50, instead of a bag of big shiny ones for $3.50.  She has been educated by the media that she is doing the right thing for her family. Not her fault.

However in many cases the difference between the organic farmer and the regular farmer is that the organic farmer " only sprays at night."

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and hopefully they have been objective enough to hear both sides of an argument before deciding which they believe in.

Graphs and charts, it is all " data mining " look for information that supports your cause and use it, ignore the info that doesn't. One scientist say yes, one says no. Fund me and I will do a 3 year study..........

Bob
There is far more money to be made by denying that the planet is warming.  You really think that a few scientists studying man's impact on our climate holds a candle to the dollars that energy companies and the like hold?  Really?

Neal
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Miss Farad was pretty and sensual, and charged to a reckless potential; but a rascal named Ohm conducted her home - Her decline was, alas, exponential
Send me your bitcoins!  1GEsGKzP5xK9e45YDjmRzGYpnhwT3oNbvj
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