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1
Hawken Energy, support only / Re: Winter Shut Down
« on: November 04, 2012, 07:41:21 PM »
Well there's a number of different things that "could" happen--personally I would let it run (circulate) and when the water goes inside, the water will be heated by the air--plus circulating water won't freeze.
If you drain the water, the exposed metal inside will begin to corrode as soon as the water is emptied...Plus how could you ever make sure ALL the water is out of all your underground lines???...I guess you could call the lawn sprinkler company and they could evac them with air--but again not practical.
The expense of antifreeze in the amount of lets say 100-150 gallons of antifreeze @ $10 a gallon...well that's out as far as I am concern.
The only problem with letting it run is if you develop a leak--then the water would not circulate and begin to freeze and cause all kinds of problems....Or if you have a lengthy power outage, the system will once again begin to freeze----
IMO anyone not having the ability to pay 100% attention to the system--will encounter a lot of potential problems.
If you drain the water, the exposed metal inside will begin to corrode as soon as the water is emptied...Plus how could you ever make sure ALL the water is out of all your underground lines???...I guess you could call the lawn sprinkler company and they could evac them with air--but again not practical.
The expense of antifreeze in the amount of lets say 100-150 gallons of antifreeze @ $10 a gallon...well that's out as far as I am concern.
The only problem with letting it run is if you develop a leak--then the water would not circulate and begin to freeze and cause all kinds of problems....Or if you have a lengthy power outage, the system will once again begin to freeze----
IMO anyone not having the ability to pay 100% attention to the system--will encounter a lot of potential problems.
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: 12v pump to replace current taco 0014-F1
« on: November 04, 2012, 07:22:46 PM »
Yea, it's called a 12v to 120volt adapter--cost about $15 on line for the adventurous folk' looking for
another way to "follow the yellow brick road"....
Guess I will never understand.....
another way to "follow the yellow brick road"....
Guess I will never understand.....
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Boiler Water Questions
« on: October 30, 2012, 07:36:40 PM »It may be in some locals but nothing like w rain soft system, that water even tastes salty
Municipal water doesn't have enough salt in it to hurt anything
They adjust your rain soft system...if you need help LMK
Rain soft is by far one of the best systems out there....and if it tastes like salt it's not adjusted correctly or you are using small poor in chunks or nuggets...they should only use 25 or 50lb block form of salt--anothing else and you are correct, it will taste like salt...
4
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Boiler Water Questions
« on: October 29, 2012, 08:50:15 PM »No salt water
If your water is that bad find another source
And are you saying that the city water supply's dont use salt for conditioning?
In my area, it's used by the tons by most city's..
JBC
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Ridgewood Stove vs Woodmaster
« on: October 29, 2012, 08:30:48 AM »
Just for a little update on the Ridgewood lineup...
I purchased the 7500 unit, installed it myself---heating 2 homes both over 2500sf., plus one pole barn 24x30 uninsulated. The install went as planned, got Taco pumps from Menards, underground from Tim @ Ridgewood for cost ($4.50 a foot!) the rest of my pex fittings from Menards and Home Depo--you can tell that it's wood boiler season--parts for 1" pex sell FAST!...Used the one solid band/barb connections from recommendation of a friend that used the leaking shark quick connects---DO not use them, they will leak upon spring/winter start up and cool down.
Anyhoo, trenched 275 foot of pex 2' down in the ground, bought my heat exchangers off of E-bay for $125+/- a piece, used a old truck radiator and a box fan for the pole barn (cheap and works GREAT!), got my water treatment off line with a test kit....and only had one small leak I had to go back and take care of--typical chinese pipe threading B.S....
After running a few face cord threw the stove (mainly cheap slab wood) it runs absolutely fine---final cost for 2 homes, 275 foot of pex, pole barn--treatment--renting a trencher-$6,600 done-running-working great!...Almost 1/2 the cost of 2 different OWB reps I had out to the house for estimates!...I simply dont see with the resoarses available with the internet why someone would not attempt to install one themself--or for that matter sublet a install (was quoted $1,500) and have a Ridgewood installed at there home/business.
I simply can not see a disadvantage to using this stove manufacture---you cut out the middleman profits (I see no reason to support someone else in these times)--work with a honest well seasoned builder and have a quality product---Thanks a Ton Tim and company!
I am getting use the the large "slap" of the vent of the natural draft system--it rings $$$ saving each and every time I hear it...
JBC
I purchased the 7500 unit, installed it myself---heating 2 homes both over 2500sf., plus one pole barn 24x30 uninsulated. The install went as planned, got Taco pumps from Menards, underground from Tim @ Ridgewood for cost ($4.50 a foot!) the rest of my pex fittings from Menards and Home Depo--you can tell that it's wood boiler season--parts for 1" pex sell FAST!...Used the one solid band/barb connections from recommendation of a friend that used the leaking shark quick connects---DO not use them, they will leak upon spring/winter start up and cool down.
Anyhoo, trenched 275 foot of pex 2' down in the ground, bought my heat exchangers off of E-bay for $125+/- a piece, used a old truck radiator and a box fan for the pole barn (cheap and works GREAT!), got my water treatment off line with a test kit....and only had one small leak I had to go back and take care of--typical chinese pipe threading B.S....
After running a few face cord threw the stove (mainly cheap slab wood) it runs absolutely fine---final cost for 2 homes, 275 foot of pex, pole barn--treatment--renting a trencher-$6,600 done-running-working great!...Almost 1/2 the cost of 2 different OWB reps I had out to the house for estimates!...I simply dont see with the resoarses available with the internet why someone would not attempt to install one themself--or for that matter sublet a install (was quoted $1,500) and have a Ridgewood installed at there home/business.
I simply can not see a disadvantage to using this stove manufacture---you cut out the middleman profits (I see no reason to support someone else in these times)--work with a honest well seasoned builder and have a quality product---Thanks a Ton Tim and company!
I am getting use the the large "slap" of the vent of the natural draft system--it rings $$$ saving each and every time I hear it...
JBC
6
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: My central air is coming on ?
« on: October 26, 2012, 02:46:40 PM »
ok here is a nice posting also...still dont have a pictures for ya' but the internet should be your friend.
http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=1348.0
http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=1348.0
7
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: My central air is coming on ?
« on: October 26, 2012, 02:37:38 PM »
Lets call your old thermostat "thermostat A"...New one added to your system "thermostat B"
On thermostat A look for the G marked terminal, it should have your A/C wire hooked to it....REMOVE the wire going to the G terminal on Thermostat A.....
Next take the wire that is running from thermostat B (W marked one) and attach that to the "now" empty terminal G on thermostat A....wa'la your done---you will have the reverse the 2 wires in the spring for the A/c to work....there's other ways you can do this--but this is the easiest way.
Basically, the G terminal on a thermostat is the fan activation wire----when you do not unhook the A/C wire from thermostat A when you hook up thermostat B to it---the thermostat B wire backfeeds the A/C system and turns it on.
I'm a picture dunce on this forum..sorry
On thermostat A look for the G marked terminal, it should have your A/C wire hooked to it....REMOVE the wire going to the G terminal on Thermostat A.....
Next take the wire that is running from thermostat B (W marked one) and attach that to the "now" empty terminal G on thermostat A....wa'la your done---you will have the reverse the 2 wires in the spring for the A/c to work....there's other ways you can do this--but this is the easiest way.
Basically, the G terminal on a thermostat is the fan activation wire----when you do not unhook the A/C wire from thermostat A when you hook up thermostat B to it---the thermostat B wire backfeeds the A/C system and turns it on.
I'm a picture dunce on this forum..sorry
8
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: trailering new OWB
« on: October 24, 2012, 05:16:40 AM »
I dont know how much it matters how the base is constructed by the way I did it,because sliding the stove sideways IS NOT a good idea no matter who's stove you have--it simply stresses the legs/frame in the wrong way and was not intended to do this by design...
Simply call your local wrecker service and have them lift it off your trailer and onto your pad with the boom of a wrecker.
My stove and the way I transported mine made it a little more complicated---I transported the stove in the bed of my F250 4x4 truck, plus my stove did not have a eye hook. If you transport your stove in the back of your truck bed (expecially a 4x4 truck), make sure you tell the wrecker service so they can make sure there wrecker boom goes high enough---A common 1 ton wrecker boom usually does NOT go high enough to lift the stove out of the back of a truck bed--in your situation if your trailer is low enough, it should not be a problem what so ever......My other problem was my stove did not have a eye hook---so I had to put a chain into the stack and fasten the end hooks on the lip of the front door opening--then the chain loop was hooked to the wrecker boom's cable hook--raised the stove up and pulled the truck out--then backed the wrecker up to the pad--lowered it down and 15 minutes later--my unloading problem was over.
Cost me $75 and the problem was eliminated pretty easy.
hope this helps...
JBC
Simply call your local wrecker service and have them lift it off your trailer and onto your pad with the boom of a wrecker.
My stove and the way I transported mine made it a little more complicated---I transported the stove in the bed of my F250 4x4 truck, plus my stove did not have a eye hook. If you transport your stove in the back of your truck bed (expecially a 4x4 truck), make sure you tell the wrecker service so they can make sure there wrecker boom goes high enough---A common 1 ton wrecker boom usually does NOT go high enough to lift the stove out of the back of a truck bed--in your situation if your trailer is low enough, it should not be a problem what so ever......My other problem was my stove did not have a eye hook---so I had to put a chain into the stack and fasten the end hooks on the lip of the front door opening--then the chain loop was hooked to the wrecker boom's cable hook--raised the stove up and pulled the truck out--then backed the wrecker up to the pad--lowered it down and 15 minutes later--my unloading problem was over.
Cost me $75 and the problem was eliminated pretty easy.
hope this helps...
JBC
9
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: auction
« on: October 18, 2012, 04:17:48 PM »
Without knowing the history of the unit----I don't know if I would offer more then 1/3 the price of a new unit...Heck when I can purchase a 100% new off brand unit for $3,500-$4,000 without any suprises, I would'nt value a 3 year old unit with unknown problems very high.
Expecially if the house is a repo--or the unit was a badly maintained unit and froze---it could become a mess in a hurry!
Don't forget the expense of moving it also on short notice like a auction usually requires.
I think if I was at the auction a $1,500+/- offering would be pretty reasonable.
JBC
Expecially if the house is a repo--or the unit was a badly maintained unit and froze---it could become a mess in a hurry!
Don't forget the expense of moving it also on short notice like a auction usually requires.
I think if I was at the auction a $1,500+/- offering would be pretty reasonable.
JBC
10
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Looking for new owf
« on: October 17, 2012, 06:52:32 AM »
Here are some of the others I looked at...nice units but I made my choice because of the way it was made.
http://www.burnritestoves.com/models.php
http://timberwolffurnace.com/models_and_prices.html
I have found a number of OWB manufactures in my area, and as can be reasoned---many of the more popular OWB manufactures MUST spend major dollars to promote/advertise there OWB's---and it can only be reasoned that these major costs will be added to the cost of your new stove if you choose a major player in the OWB market....Simply a cost I am not interesting in paying--
I made my decission by the way the stove is made--quality of manufacturing--and the quality of parts/steel used in manufacturing. There are some junk stoves out there--and others are pretty nice as in the unit I found which fit my bill to spend money on.
Good luck on your choice, but I can not recommend enough that you look at the way the stove is MADE and NOT the brand name!...And the money spent on your purchase makes reasonable sense--and stay away from the 12-14K installed salesmen/middlemen out there----you will find a significant amount of OWB stoves made without the major $$$ spent on advertising sell direct from the manufacture and do not use dealer networks for a reason----A REASONABLE reason it's called the "Yee-old mighty dollar!!!"
Spend the time here on this forum and others--educate yourself and avoid middleman salesmen.
JBC
http://www.burnritestoves.com/models.php
http://timberwolffurnace.com/models_and_prices.html
I have found a number of OWB manufactures in my area, and as can be reasoned---many of the more popular OWB manufactures MUST spend major dollars to promote/advertise there OWB's---and it can only be reasoned that these major costs will be added to the cost of your new stove if you choose a major player in the OWB market....Simply a cost I am not interesting in paying--
I made my decission by the way the stove is made--quality of manufacturing--and the quality of parts/steel used in manufacturing. There are some junk stoves out there--and others are pretty nice as in the unit I found which fit my bill to spend money on.
Good luck on your choice, but I can not recommend enough that you look at the way the stove is MADE and NOT the brand name!...And the money spent on your purchase makes reasonable sense--and stay away from the 12-14K installed salesmen/middlemen out there----you will find a significant amount of OWB stoves made without the major $$$ spent on advertising sell direct from the manufacture and do not use dealer networks for a reason----A REASONABLE reason it's called the "Yee-old mighty dollar!!!"
Spend the time here on this forum and others--educate yourself and avoid middleman salesmen.
JBC
11
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Looking for new owf
« on: October 17, 2012, 06:16:46 AM »
There is NO WAY in this world I will/would think about spending 14K for a installed wood stove--NO WAY--period! For 14K I can pay the gas company for MANY years while sitting in my easy chair pushing the remote buttons......
I just completed my install of a Ridgewood wood stove, I have less then 5,500 installed for a unit which heats 2 homes and a pole barn--not a 14K unit for the heating of one home +/-.
http://www.ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept.htm
I also decided against the gasser avenue, everyone I talked to that HAS one hates the 2-3 week cleaning episode to keep the unit operating proper---both of the actual units I seen did not impress me at all!...When talking to a gasser unit individual who moved from a conventional OWB, the actual wood useage on the same house was only about 2 face cord a year difference---and @ $50+/- a cord for the wood makes for a $100 year difference, the additional money for the gasser up front PLUS the cleaning regiment simply does not justify the purchase of a gasser if you are not required by law in your area.
When I did my searching for a conventional OWB, the pricing for a unit was all over the map. The one I ended up with was not only one of the least expensive units I found, but it had and addressed the items in a wood stove that I thought where critical. Plus the owner sells the premium Z-Pex underground piping at cost which is a big benifit.
http://www.z-supply.com/index.php/prices
The price the OWB supplier charged was 50%+/- less then the retail price of the underground piping!!! And when you look at your whole package, the UGP is a significant $$$ of your package.
The way I looked at it, SO WHAT if my conventional stove uses 2+/- face cords of wood more then a gasser per year, but you will not see me when it's O degree's outside burning down my stove to clean it so it operates proper---Plus the extra 5K I saved will look a lot better in my bank account then someone elses.
If you live in Wisconsin, the above Ridgewood stoves are made on the west side of Michigan--a simple low cost trip over on the boat to Michigan, picking one of these stoves up and returning home would be pretty reasonable---Even if you choose for someone else to install it, the low cost of the stove makes the WHOLE package reasonable unlike the 14K estimate.
JBC
I just completed my install of a Ridgewood wood stove, I have less then 5,500 installed for a unit which heats 2 homes and a pole barn--not a 14K unit for the heating of one home +/-.
http://www.ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept.htm
I also decided against the gasser avenue, everyone I talked to that HAS one hates the 2-3 week cleaning episode to keep the unit operating proper---both of the actual units I seen did not impress me at all!...When talking to a gasser unit individual who moved from a conventional OWB, the actual wood useage on the same house was only about 2 face cord a year difference---and @ $50+/- a cord for the wood makes for a $100 year difference, the additional money for the gasser up front PLUS the cleaning regiment simply does not justify the purchase of a gasser if you are not required by law in your area.
When I did my searching for a conventional OWB, the pricing for a unit was all over the map. The one I ended up with was not only one of the least expensive units I found, but it had and addressed the items in a wood stove that I thought where critical. Plus the owner sells the premium Z-Pex underground piping at cost which is a big benifit.
http://www.z-supply.com/index.php/prices
The price the OWB supplier charged was 50%+/- less then the retail price of the underground piping!!! And when you look at your whole package, the UGP is a significant $$$ of your package.
The way I looked at it, SO WHAT if my conventional stove uses 2+/- face cords of wood more then a gasser per year, but you will not see me when it's O degree's outside burning down my stove to clean it so it operates proper---Plus the extra 5K I saved will look a lot better in my bank account then someone elses.
If you live in Wisconsin, the above Ridgewood stoves are made on the west side of Michigan--a simple low cost trip over on the boat to Michigan, picking one of these stoves up and returning home would be pretty reasonable---Even if you choose for someone else to install it, the low cost of the stove makes the WHOLE package reasonable unlike the 14K estimate.
JBC
12
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Newbie Questions
« on: October 03, 2012, 01:19:47 AM »
But also down right reasonable...
Most all of the OWB out there are IMO way to expensive for the return in $$$.
Simply do the math with your current situation--
Most stoves no matter who the manufacture is have some kind of generic parts hung off of them, so finding parts may be a challenge, but you can find something that will work most of the time--even if it does need something in it's current state...Granger can be your friend to find the parts or part number then use the internet to find where Granger obtained them from and save yourself big $$$'s.
For the price, well it's a gamble, but if you put the odd's in your favor by researching it like you are doing--I think for the investment dollar you should do ok.
JBC
Most all of the OWB out there are IMO way to expensive for the return in $$$.
Simply do the math with your current situation--
Most stoves no matter who the manufacture is have some kind of generic parts hung off of them, so finding parts may be a challenge, but you can find something that will work most of the time--even if it does need something in it's current state...Granger can be your friend to find the parts or part number then use the internet to find where Granger obtained them from and save yourself big $$$'s.
For the price, well it's a gamble, but if you put the odd's in your favor by researching it like you are doing--I think for the investment dollar you should do ok.
JBC
13
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Pro Fab Cozyburn or Portage and Main
« on: September 23, 2012, 06:53:42 AM »
I did my homework and look at this this way, when I ran down owners of some of the well known designs and companies, they had there fair share of problems also---I think it's purely how the stove is made and how it's maintained. I see 10K central boilers "with good welds--LOL" have leakage problems that go unresolved with the manufacture within 2-3 even 4 years of new ownership. Other stainless versions that have spiderweb cracks from front to back that have leakage problems(beyond there engineering problem to begin with!!). Another one which "sheds" welding slag like its a Newfinland dog' years after being purchased....If you want to see plenty of unhappy customers, simply begin searching craigslist for used stoves----There's plenty of unhappy/cracked and leaking/ or "The best in the world" stoves for under 3K---Then ask yourself why I would'nt want to spend 3K on a NEW stove?.....then why dont you begin to tell me why a CB/PM/Hawken--etc/ect' that is priced almost 40-50+++% more is "so much efficent-etc'....Simply the well mass marketed pieces WON'T burn 3K++ less wood over there entire life span--no way no how period! And to say you will have to "pitch more wood" in your stove until your back hurts because it's a inefficent design is---well that's silly at best to support your homework at buying a high dollar priced mass marketed stove IMO...No different then pulling up in your Cadillac and parking it next to my Honda Civic hybred car at the resterant...To each there own, the dinner ordered will still taste the same. 
I ran down owners of Ridgewood, although they have not been around for years like some of the mega-marketing examples, they appear to be well built and engineered. The owner has come from a well known manufacture and has basic knowledge of the market and stoves out there. Owners seem to be happy without complaints or problems because of there "basic design"---No they wont win the perdyest" stove award at a show--but they don't break and don't leak. You are not having to go replacing a power motor on the stove door a 0 degree's when they go out. You dont have to spend HOURS to clean the chimney or baffles--"I would rather pitch one piece of wood more a day to eliminate the baffle and chimney cleaning regiment required with the so called efficent stoves"---This opinion comes from more then a handful of people I asked who own mass marketed stoves--not myself--I could'nt agree more!
I also believe that being around wood heat for years myself, each stove has the ability to be efficent or "uneffective" way of heating--each stove and application must be "mastered" by the owner to get the most out of his/her stove for home heating. Every stove has a "sweet spot" as far as efficeny weather it's the type of wood burnt, the amount of fuel added to the stove, or the dampner settings---I think any good experianced wood burning person can master it with a good engineered plan of attack.
To each there own and I can only recommend a lot of research here on this site and more forums---But to say that a 10K stove is "better" then a 3K stove---well to each there own, but I am more of a conservative spender of my $$$ and can not to this day see why a mass market products like that are on every street corner for sale are any "better" or efficent in the long run with all things considered....Efficent in my book includes BTU transfer rate and maintance required for a burning season for a given stove over the life time of the stove.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that all mass marketed stove are junk, there simply a LONG way from my choice when evaluated from top to bottom everything inbetween analized.
JBC
I ran down owners of Ridgewood, although they have not been around for years like some of the mega-marketing examples, they appear to be well built and engineered. The owner has come from a well known manufacture and has basic knowledge of the market and stoves out there. Owners seem to be happy without complaints or problems because of there "basic design"---No they wont win the perdyest" stove award at a show--but they don't break and don't leak. You are not having to go replacing a power motor on the stove door a 0 degree's when they go out. You dont have to spend HOURS to clean the chimney or baffles--"I would rather pitch one piece of wood more a day to eliminate the baffle and chimney cleaning regiment required with the so called efficent stoves"---This opinion comes from more then a handful of people I asked who own mass marketed stoves--not myself--I could'nt agree more!
I also believe that being around wood heat for years myself, each stove has the ability to be efficent or "uneffective" way of heating--each stove and application must be "mastered" by the owner to get the most out of his/her stove for home heating. Every stove has a "sweet spot" as far as efficeny weather it's the type of wood burnt, the amount of fuel added to the stove, or the dampner settings---I think any good experianced wood burning person can master it with a good engineered plan of attack.
To each there own and I can only recommend a lot of research here on this site and more forums---But to say that a 10K stove is "better" then a 3K stove---well to each there own, but I am more of a conservative spender of my $$$ and can not to this day see why a mass market products like that are on every street corner for sale are any "better" or efficent in the long run with all things considered....Efficent in my book includes BTU transfer rate and maintance required for a burning season for a given stove over the life time of the stove.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that all mass marketed stove are junk, there simply a LONG way from my choice when evaluated from top to bottom everything inbetween analized.
JBC
14
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Pro Fab Cozyburn or Portage and Main
« on: September 22, 2012, 03:45:05 PM »I am glad I read on before opening my mouth Boilerman. I thought you were about to bash foam. I love mine and I also love my CB5036. I am not familiar with the other models mentioned. Are they not using spray foam on these?
Yes Ridgewood uses foam.....
http://ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept_008.htm
Look at the pictures---foam..
Plus you would be supporting a local Michigander.
JBC
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
15
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Pro Fab Cozyburn or Portage and Main
« on: September 21, 2012, 02:51:59 AM »
I checked out most of the local central Michigan models.
I really like this manufactures stoves--
http://ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept_008.htm
You are purchasing from the manufacture without a $$$ middle man.
Many people will beat-up the the things like--how long will they be around--natural draft wont burn green wood..
Well they do burn green wood--although as expected--green wood in not very efficent
If they stay around--great!...If not I got a really simply stove without all the bells-n-whistles to have problems with...There very well built which I seen for myself with a tour of there building the stoves.
Now the big thing--these stoves are atleast 40%++ cheaper stove for stove!...Plus the owner sells you the great z-supply underground piping at cost!...another huge $$$ savings.
Bottom line is this, CB + Hawkens estimates where 13,000-14,500, I will have about $5,700 into hooking up 2 houses, plus a 1,200 SQ pole barn!...HUGE difference IMO.
JBC
I really like this manufactures stoves--
http://ridgewoodstove.com/ridgewoodsept_008.htm
You are purchasing from the manufacture without a $$$ middle man.
Many people will beat-up the the things like--how long will they be around--natural draft wont burn green wood..
Well they do burn green wood--although as expected--green wood in not very efficent
If they stay around--great!...If not I got a really simply stove without all the bells-n-whistles to have problems with...There very well built which I seen for myself with a tour of there building the stoves.
Now the big thing--these stoves are atleast 40%++ cheaper stove for stove!...Plus the owner sells you the great z-supply underground piping at cost!...another huge $$$ savings.
Bottom line is this, CB + Hawkens estimates where 13,000-14,500, I will have about $5,700 into hooking up 2 houses, plus a 1,200 SQ pole barn!...HUGE difference IMO.
JBC
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