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1
Electronics / Re: Air handler - thermostat wiring
« on: January 10, 2017, 06:58:51 PM »
Thanks.. Unfortunately though the B connection appears to be hot any time there's power to the tstat. Not just when it's calling for heat but the instant it's powered. Hmm... I checked all terminals with a voltmeter and G never went high, nor any of the other terminals. Except AUX heat which is where I have the fan lead attached currently. Works good, just nothing when the tstat calls for heat, and fan when it calls for aux heat. Maybe not the perfect solution, but works... Oh and there is no compressor, not a heat pump, air handler only.
Worked great over the past 3 days with daytime highs in the 20's and overnights in the single digits.. And then of course it's almost 60 today, heh.
Worked great over the past 3 days with daytime highs in the 20's and overnights in the single digits.. And then of course it's almost 60 today, heh.
2
Electronics / Air handler - thermostat wiring
« on: January 07, 2017, 05:00:41 PM »
I have an air handler and water-to-air exchanger. There are no heat strips or condenser, not a heat pump, just the sheet metal box and fan. And of course 24VAC transformer and relay... I have the 24VAC going to a thermostat to power it and one lead to the relay, currently connected to "Aux".
TH3210D:
C 24 Vac common
B Changeover valve energized in heating
R 24 Vac power
L Sends output when set to Em. Heat
O Changeover valve energized in cooling
G Fan relay
Y Compressor contactor
Aux Auxiliary heat relay
E Emergency heat relay
This probably isn't the best thermostat for this application, it's just a spare one my dad had and I borrowed. http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Pro3000Install1.pdf I believe that it's meant only for a HP and does not directly control the fan itself. Connecting to the (G) Fan relay terminal does not result in the relay tripping, unless I manually slide the "Fan" switch from auto to on. I of course want the fan to come on when the tstat calls for heat. Suggestions? I've checked the rest of the terminals and unless I was just impatient, am not seeing 24V on any when the tstat is showing "Heat On".
Connected to Aux, it does automatically kick the fan on, when the tstat shows the temp a couple or more degrees below the set point and "Aux Heat On" displays. Works, maybe good as I'm going to get out of this tstat...
Thanks.
PS. P&M 2840 feeding into my basement as only heat source for that part of the house. Heat pump upstairs, toasty warm upstairs without HP having been on in last few days. Basement is nice and warm, heat rises, whole house is nice and warm. Single digits tonight, got it loaded up with white/red Oak.
TH3210D:
C 24 Vac common
B Changeover valve energized in heating
R 24 Vac power
L Sends output when set to Em. Heat
O Changeover valve energized in cooling
G Fan relay
Y Compressor contactor
Aux Auxiliary heat relay
E Emergency heat relay
This probably isn't the best thermostat for this application, it's just a spare one my dad had and I borrowed. http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Pro3000Install1.pdf I believe that it's meant only for a HP and does not directly control the fan itself. Connecting to the (G) Fan relay terminal does not result in the relay tripping, unless I manually slide the "Fan" switch from auto to on. I of course want the fan to come on when the tstat calls for heat. Suggestions? I've checked the rest of the terminals and unless I was just impatient, am not seeing 24V on any when the tstat is showing "Heat On".
Connected to Aux, it does automatically kick the fan on, when the tstat shows the temp a couple or more degrees below the set point and "Aux Heat On" displays. Works, maybe good as I'm going to get out of this tstat...
Thanks.
PS. P&M 2840 feeding into my basement as only heat source for that part of the house. Heat pump upstairs, toasty warm upstairs without HP having been on in last few days. Basement is nice and warm, heat rises, whole house is nice and warm. Single digits tonight, got it loaded up with white/red Oak.
3
Advanced Electronics / Temperature sensors
« on: November 02, 2016, 05:42:36 PM »
If you are measuring water temperature related to your OWB, with a digital sensor accessible via computer, how are you exposing it to the water? Analog gauges seem to commonly have a 1/4" NPT connection. Which I assume is typically screwed into a tee? The biggest differential I see in a brass tee @ supply house is 1" x 1" x 3/4". So a sleeve to connect the 1/4" gauge into the 3/4" side? Same principle for a digital sensor?
What kind of sensors are you using? There are automotive engine coolant sensors which seem like should work. https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-2385-Autogage-Temperature/dp/B00062YVWU/ref=pd_sbs_263_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QS9TZHNF92VQMN6VVYFM They connect via NPT, are waterproof, and inexpensive, etc.. I'm not sure how to "read" one though. Are they just a packaged thermistor or similar? If there's some reason one of those can't work or would be too difficult/expensive, something like this perhaps? https://www.adafruit.com/products/642 Poke it into the tee and epoxy around it?
I've seen some sensors strapped to the outside of a pipe but have to think that wouldn't be quite as good, accurate, or quick to register change. Thoughts?
Thanks.
PS. 1" x 1" x 1/4" even though the picture appears incorrect. https://www.amazon.com/Everflow-Supplies-BRRT1000-NL-4-Inch-Reducing/dp/B00N2SDVTO/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1478129893&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=1%22+x+1%22+x+1%2F4%22+tee+brass+npt
What kind of sensors are you using? There are automotive engine coolant sensors which seem like should work. https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-2385-Autogage-Temperature/dp/B00062YVWU/ref=pd_sbs_263_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QS9TZHNF92VQMN6VVYFM They connect via NPT, are waterproof, and inexpensive, etc.. I'm not sure how to "read" one though. Are they just a packaged thermistor or similar? If there's some reason one of those can't work or would be too difficult/expensive, something like this perhaps? https://www.adafruit.com/products/642 Poke it into the tee and epoxy around it?
I've seen some sensors strapped to the outside of a pipe but have to think that wouldn't be quite as good, accurate, or quick to register change. Thoughts?
Thanks.
PS. 1" x 1" x 1/4" even though the picture appears incorrect. https://www.amazon.com/Everflow-Supplies-BRRT1000-NL-4-Inch-Reducing/dp/B00N2SDVTO/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1478129893&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=1%22+x+1%22+x+1%2F4%22+tee+brass+npt
4
Portage & Main / Re: New BL 28-40 owner, way too many questions...
« on: October 30, 2016, 04:51:55 PM »
How I missed the drawing of the fan assembly in the manual is beyond me.. Sigh.. That change is now undone. And since the inside work isn't done yet either, I'm gonna move the pump to there. Easier to work on (in the cold) if it has a problem and easier to change water "direction". I plan to have it draw from the bottom and return to the top as has been suggested. Thanks.
https://goo.gl/photos/GhQ2bWyWuYrtTUPF6
https://goo.gl/photos/GhQ2bWyWuYrtTUPF6
5
Portage & Main / Re: New BL 28-40 owner, way too many questions...
« on: October 22, 2016, 07:34:00 AM »
It was too late in the season to get everything done last year so the stove was idle.. I'm trying to get it fired up this year though, and it's already late October!
https://goo.gl/photos/SjuNR9CBmGZYv1mWA
There's a picture of the wiring, plumbing, and some modifications I've made at the stove.
P&M documentation appeared to indicate that drawing water from the top port and returning to the bottom was the way to go. Now of course I've read more, and understand that isn't the preferred way. Figures...
Has anyone else used this type of flexible connector? http://holdrite.com/product/qfc-7515/ They're only rated for 190F which I'm a bit concerned about. If it becomes a problem I'll get some high-temp rubber hose like what most everyone else appears to be using.
The factory-mounted fan took up a lot of room. I rotated it clockwise 90 degrees so that the duct came straight down from it. Do you see a problem with that, or has anyone else done similar? This gave more room to get a switch for the pump and outlet installed. As well as future 2nd pump and plumbing...
So, any specific suggestions or general observations on this so far?
Thanks.
https://goo.gl/photos/SjuNR9CBmGZYv1mWA
There's a picture of the wiring, plumbing, and some modifications I've made at the stove.
P&M documentation appeared to indicate that drawing water from the top port and returning to the bottom was the way to go. Now of course I've read more, and understand that isn't the preferred way. Figures...
Has anyone else used this type of flexible connector? http://holdrite.com/product/qfc-7515/ They're only rated for 190F which I'm a bit concerned about. If it becomes a problem I'll get some high-temp rubber hose like what most everyone else appears to be using.
The factory-mounted fan took up a lot of room. I rotated it clockwise 90 degrees so that the duct came straight down from it. Do you see a problem with that, or has anyone else done similar? This gave more room to get a switch for the pump and outlet installed. As well as future 2nd pump and plumbing...
So, any specific suggestions or general observations on this so far?
Thanks.
6
Portage & Main / Re: Questions on finishing install of BL28-40
« on: December 16, 2015, 03:12:30 PM »Logstor is bigger than 1" pex. Your crimp tool will be too small. A reamer tool will be good to have for those compression fittings so you don't booger up the o-rings.
OK, that makes sense...
PEX OD is 1.125" and ID is 0.875"
http://www.pexuniverse.com/pex-tubing-technical-specs
Logstor OD is 1.26" and ID is 1.032"
http://www.pexflex.net/html/techinfo_index.htm
PEX-AL-PEX OD is 1.28" and ID is 0.98"
http://www.pexheat.com/Catalog/PEX-AL-PEX
So the compression fittings they supplied, are probably for PEX-AL-PEX, or are at least close enough in size that they'll work it sounds like. Sounds like...
7
Portage & Main / Re: Questions on finishing install of BL28-40
« on: December 16, 2015, 11:39:00 AM »
Thanks for posting this and fixing my account mlappin...
Rick, thanks for the answers to my questions, and for some excellent suggestions.
Some kind of remote alarm for overtemp would certainly be nice. I may go ahead and bury ethernet while I have the trench dug as well.. Not sure what exactly I'll use it for, but can probably come up with something.
Logstor pipe.. The stove/pipe combo came with 4 female NPT-PEX compression fitting connectors. The stove has 2 male and 2 female NPT supply/return ports, so those will half work. I was surprised to see they were compression fittings, I had anticipated using barbed connectors and copper rings and my PEX crimp tool. I did some reading last night and am now wondering, is this PEX-AL-PEX? If so will I need a chamfering tool? Crimp rings won't work?
I've looked at a fair amount of install photos, diagrams, etc.. This one seems to be somewhat close to what I'm trying to do: http://www.polarfurnace.com/my_folders/install_schematics/Open_-_Central_Air_and_DHW_-_Single_Pump.jpg
It helps me to visualize the finish line.. Anyway, not sure if the Flexible Reinforced Tubing would be needed or not, the PEX might be long enough (and should provide plenty of give/take). Suggestions on what could be used as that tubing otherwise?
Thanks.
Rick, thanks for the answers to my questions, and for some excellent suggestions.
Some kind of remote alarm for overtemp would certainly be nice. I may go ahead and bury ethernet while I have the trench dug as well.. Not sure what exactly I'll use it for, but can probably come up with something.
Logstor pipe.. The stove/pipe combo came with 4 female NPT-PEX compression fitting connectors. The stove has 2 male and 2 female NPT supply/return ports, so those will half work. I was surprised to see they were compression fittings, I had anticipated using barbed connectors and copper rings and my PEX crimp tool. I did some reading last night and am now wondering, is this PEX-AL-PEX? If so will I need a chamfering tool? Crimp rings won't work?
I've looked at a fair amount of install photos, diagrams, etc.. This one seems to be somewhat close to what I'm trying to do: http://www.polarfurnace.com/my_folders/install_schematics/Open_-_Central_Air_and_DHW_-_Single_Pump.jpg
It helps me to visualize the finish line.. Anyway, not sure if the Flexible Reinforced Tubing would be needed or not, the PEX might be long enough (and should provide plenty of give/take). Suggestions on what could be used as that tubing otherwise?
Thanks.
8
Portage & Main / New BL 28-40 owner, way too many questions...
« on: December 09, 2015, 11:42:48 AM »
I ordered a BL 28-40 from the factory (no local dealer) and it was delivered on Saturday. With the help of a rented Genie 5519 telescoping forklift, we had it off the truck and on the pad in probably 30 minutes. Terrifying and exhilerating at the same time! Now the fun begins.. What components do I need.. How do I make this thing go..
I have a few (heh) questions, if any of you would be so kind to assist me with them.
1) Pump - I have 110' of Logstor and there's probably 15' or so of elevation difference from the lowest point water will be in the house, to the supply lines on the back of the OWB. Any suggestions on what might be appropriate for that?
2) Pump Location - Why would I want the pump mounted at the OWB itself, as opposed to in my basement? Or vice versa? Noise?
3) Pump Direction - If it's mounted at the OWB, would it be configured water supply line to pump which then pushes towards the house (downhill but not relevant I presume) and ultimately back (up) to the OWB? If it's in the house, would it be installed on the "return" line to the OWB, pushing what's already came through heat exchangers back to the OWB? Or in a closed system does it not really matter all that much?
4) DHW - A plate heat exchanger is typically used to heat the water coming into the HW heater isn't it? A sidearm is used to keep water already inside of it hot? With ~180F water coming from the OWB, the HW heater would come up to pretty close this temperature as well wouldn't it? That's too hot to go to a faucet/tub so I assume that's where a mixing valve comes in? Sum in a bit of cold water to bring it back down to ~130F. Our tap water is ultra cold in the winter, probably because the pipe goes through a creek. I'm inclined to install both a plate and sidearm heater, thoughts?
5) Home - It's 1700sqft with a single heat pump. Which survived the last two winters with a moderate amount of "emergency heat" usage. The full basement is not heated and falls to the low 40's at least, we've sealed it off from upstairs entirely these last 2 winters. The upstairs we've completely remodeled, insulation is pretty good, very little leakage/drafts or similar. I plan to put an air handler only in the basement and water-to-air heat exchanger. Floor joists are insulated but that could be removed, basement ceiling is not finished. I hope to heat the basement, and not have to have a second heat exchanger for the upstairs air handler. If that becomes necessary though, shouldn't be too difficult to add. The basement stairs come out very close to the upstairs air return, plus just what tends to rise over the entire ceiling/floor area.
That covers some of my more pressing questions on the basics. As an electronics tinkerer though, I can't help but ponder improvements, additions, etc.. I've not looked closely at the supplied aquastat yet, nor have I looked at any technical documentation for it. Does it by chance have the ability to act as a remote thermostat, providing current temperature information along a cable to a remote receiver? Or would I need to purchase an additional sensor for that? I'm thinking of putting some direct burial ethernet in the trench so that I can monitor some aspects of the system from inside the home, provide alerting, etc.. I read on here about a mod to cut off the fan when temps drop below a certain point, I think that sounds like a very good idea as well. Always interested in additional mods like this, and especially anything related to monitoring or better automation.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!
I have a few (heh) questions, if any of you would be so kind to assist me with them.
1) Pump - I have 110' of Logstor and there's probably 15' or so of elevation difference from the lowest point water will be in the house, to the supply lines on the back of the OWB. Any suggestions on what might be appropriate for that?
2) Pump Location - Why would I want the pump mounted at the OWB itself, as opposed to in my basement? Or vice versa? Noise?
3) Pump Direction - If it's mounted at the OWB, would it be configured water supply line to pump which then pushes towards the house (downhill but not relevant I presume) and ultimately back (up) to the OWB? If it's in the house, would it be installed on the "return" line to the OWB, pushing what's already came through heat exchangers back to the OWB? Or in a closed system does it not really matter all that much?
4) DHW - A plate heat exchanger is typically used to heat the water coming into the HW heater isn't it? A sidearm is used to keep water already inside of it hot? With ~180F water coming from the OWB, the HW heater would come up to pretty close this temperature as well wouldn't it? That's too hot to go to a faucet/tub so I assume that's where a mixing valve comes in? Sum in a bit of cold water to bring it back down to ~130F. Our tap water is ultra cold in the winter, probably because the pipe goes through a creek. I'm inclined to install both a plate and sidearm heater, thoughts?
5) Home - It's 1700sqft with a single heat pump. Which survived the last two winters with a moderate amount of "emergency heat" usage. The full basement is not heated and falls to the low 40's at least, we've sealed it off from upstairs entirely these last 2 winters. The upstairs we've completely remodeled, insulation is pretty good, very little leakage/drafts or similar. I plan to put an air handler only in the basement and water-to-air heat exchanger. Floor joists are insulated but that could be removed, basement ceiling is not finished. I hope to heat the basement, and not have to have a second heat exchanger for the upstairs air handler. If that becomes necessary though, shouldn't be too difficult to add. The basement stairs come out very close to the upstairs air return, plus just what tends to rise over the entire ceiling/floor area.
That covers some of my more pressing questions on the basics. As an electronics tinkerer though, I can't help but ponder improvements, additions, etc.. I've not looked closely at the supplied aquastat yet, nor have I looked at any technical documentation for it. Does it by chance have the ability to act as a remote thermostat, providing current temperature information along a cable to a remote receiver? Or would I need to purchase an additional sensor for that? I'm thinking of putting some direct burial ethernet in the trench so that I can monitor some aspects of the system from inside the home, provide alerting, etc.. I read on here about a mod to cut off the fan when temps drop below a certain point, I think that sounds like a very good idea as well. Always interested in additional mods like this, and especially anything related to monitoring or better automation.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!
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