Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Shaver Furnace => Topic started by: lugnut on November 08, 2011, 09:13:32 PM
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Hi folks,
I'm a newbie here and the proud owner of a Shaver 250. I have two other posts on this site but on different pages. One post deals with moisture meters; the other deals with at what temp do I set the thermostat on the rear of the furnace. I suppose I could have posted over here on the Shaver page....so moving on.....
I have the Rust Blocker in my furnace and I'm curious about the antifreeze. My furnace is about 115 feet from my house and the pipes are but 2' under the surface. What kid of antifreeze do you suggest and how much would I require for the Shaver 250? Friend tells me they use RV antifreeze...any pros/cons regarding using this in the OWF?
Thank you in advance and tomorrow I'm sure I;'ll come up with more questions. Yes, I do know that this is a learning experience and I'm looking forward to getting that first gas bill. :-)
Jerry
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I would not use RV antifreeze. It is just mostly alcohol.
Alcohol has a much lower boiling point that water so it will all just leave out the overflow pipe and you will be left with just water.
If you really need antifreeze, Glycol is the best thing to use but real expensive.
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i think antifreeze should be a last resort...i use it in my outbuilding heat supply but i have that as a closes systemand does not mix with my boiler water.
if you have a back up heat system it should keep the OWB from freezing as long as the pump is circulating the water from the OWB
if you lose power and no pumps are moving the water you could very well have a problem is you were away for the right length of time (how much that is i don't know)
if you use antifreeze it will be expensive and you should use the "non toxic type that also wont harm your boiler" i am not sure of the trade name but it will be costly. most folks that have these OWB are in rural areas with farm tiles or drainage tiles that go to a ditch or creek and if you were to dump a mixture of 3 or 4 or 5 hundred gallons of auto antifreeze into the neares creek or river, i think you would find yourself in hot water of a different kind.
make sure your anitfreexe is non toxic and safe for mild steel
sorry i couldnt be more helpful on types of antifreeze
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Thanks for the replies. Willie, I do live out in a rural area and I have well water and I'm very careful as to what goes onto my ground, however thank you for your concern, it is very much appreciated. I do have my house gas furnace as a back up in case the fire goes out in the OWF. I just want to cover all the bases, in case I do have to go away and for some unknown reason the pump stops operating and the temps dip way down.
I understand the antifreeze, if used should be of the glycol variety because of the toxicities posed by other antifreeze products. I did read where Dow Frost is the type to go with. I suppose I need to contact Shaver or one of their distributors and check on pricing and how much Antifreeze I''d have to use.
RSI: thanks for the info on the RV antifreeze. This is why I like this site, because of all the useful info and for the most part, folks on here aren't going to mislead a guy.
So back to my search for antifreeze. I forgot to mention that I reside in North East Wisconsin. I was trying to find the area on here to insert my where abouts, but alas every website is different and all I've been doing is reading and not trying to set up a profile. Will let all know what I've come up with.
Jerry
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Click on your profile tab and add your location under your signature.
Welcome to the site!
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P&M recommended I use 30% RV antifreeze.
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Folks, rv antifreeze will evaporate realllly fast. I'd think who recommends that doesnt understand how quickly it will evaporate in an open system. As far as asking the companies what to use, that's a tough one cause some will tell you anything to get you off the phone. The only antifreeze I'd reccome d is glycol, it is expensive for a reason.
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I just did a google search on RV antifreeze and it appears that at least some brands use Propylene Glycol. I will have to look into it more later.
One thing I noticed was that the flash point for is is 218 degrees. If you have a boiler over it will be flammable liquid and steam coming out the overflow pipe.
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I have decided that i will not use antifreeze in my unit. I will however look into power back up for the furnace, just in case I'm not home for some reason and it gets really cold and the pump stops. :-(
Thanks for everyone's input.
Lugnut
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Good call sticking with water. As Wilie G noted, your backup heating system will prevent your OWB system from freezing up - providing you leave your circulating pump on.
Just as an FYI ethylene glycol, commonly used as automobile radiator antifreeze, is very toxic when consumed, especially to animals.
Propylene glycol, mainly known as an RV and plumbing antifreeze, is non toxic.
Water absorbs, and gives up, more heat per change of temperature than either type of glycol.
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Well, now I'm back at looking at the antifreeze thingy again. My pump runs 24/7 and I do three things twice a day. I look outside towards the furnace and see if there is smoke coming from the chimney, then I go downstairs and placed my hand on the pex line and check for heat and water movement.
This is all well and good, but what if I go away and the power goes out in the house....for maybe 3 days and the temps dip down below zero. Then the OWB will not be working nor will the house furnace. I can see a really huge problems occurring. I cannot imagine what it would be like to come home to a house that has water up to the rafters in the lower level not to mention the OWB destroyed and the house furnace messed up even more.
I do understand that if the fire goes out in the box, as long as the pump is running the heat from the house gas furnace will keep the water warm and prevent freezing as long as the pump is running....but what if..the worse case scenario?
This all came up last night when I was over at a friend's shop, the guy who helped straighten out the wonderful auto damper that Shaver sent me....Wally is a pipe/steam fitter by trade and he told me about all the heating systems hes put in and that they all use antifreeze. He said, " I can't imagine you having all that money in the furnace and pex line and not have antifreeze in the system. Given how often you guys go on vacation during the winter for warmer climates. "
I have no back up in case we have a power failure, although we have discussed it before living out here where we do, but right now it's not in the budget.
So I will be sending emails out this afternoon to local sores inquiring about antifreeze. I DO appreciate everyone's responses and I understand this is my call...while I'd like to just sluff it off and wing it, if I'm wrong..it WILL be a very costly mistake.. :(
Lugnut
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One of my suppliers said they can get glycol seconds but never gave me a price for it. He says it works just as good. The only difference it that the manufacturer has it in a huge tank and let it settle. Then the normal 1st quality stuff is taken off the top. What is left they sell as seconds.
If you want me to check on pricing, let me know.
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lug// i am not against antifreeze i just dont use it as i am not a traveler. if you do travel a lot and are away for extended periods of time and have no family or friends that you can trust to look after your stove for you, then yes, as your steam fitter friend suggests, you should be looking at the antifreeze end of things.
i know every one says that the water gives up heat much faster than the antifreeze mix but i dont think it makes much difference in our case. and if it does cause you to lose a bit of efficiency, that is made up with "peace of mind"
the antifreeze may be expensive and if you have a break or a leak then that money is gone and you have to do it again
if i had friends to count on i would say water...if you don't think you can bother your friends or family with the burden of feeding your stove while away or looking after it if the power goes out then i would say yes..antifreeze
good luck with what ever you do
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I think Willie is right on, if you dont have a friend or family member you can trust to look after Owb and plan on being away for extended periods glycol will be a good investment. I have put it in a lot CW systems over the years. Most engineers call for 30% ratio around here.
If you do install make sure there is no way water can back up from heating system into domestic water.
Another option is to install backup generator and install circuit for heating system on it. Will keep pumps running to prevent freezing.
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Willie and Mike...I have friends I can count on, it's just that we all live in very opposite directions. Both my nearest friends, well chad lives about 25 miles west of me ad Paul lives about 30 miles north of me. I have a couple folks here, but don't know if I want to bother them.
I try my best not to go away any place warm in the winter because sure as I do, it will snow 123" and the wife STILL DOESN'T know how to use the new tractor and all I would hear would be..."why did you have to go away down south....?" I've learned my lesson,
BUT....there's always that "what-if" in the back of my mind. I think too, the deciding factor will be the price of the antifreeze.
I "have considered the back up generator" and that might happen next year. I have to keep all my options on the table. Thanks guys. I appreciate your thoughts and ideas.
Jerry
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A small generator may be cheaper than the antifreeze
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A small generator may be cheaper than the antifreeze
Bull, this maybe all well and good, but what if we're not home? If it's a really bad storm, I don't expect any of my friends to be coming over to bail me out. Not saying they wouldn't but I wouldn't expect them to.
Right now, I'm looking at peace of mind on tow fronts...taking care of an expensive heating system: gas house furnace; finished lower lever; OWB and most importantly: the wife. If the former fails due to my lack of putting in a back up, then the latter will be really hard to live with.
Lugnut
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LOL I agree with the last part
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funny how we all seem to meet just "the right woman" and then they turn out to be all the same ;)
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I've thought this entire subject over and over in my mind...burned a few brain calories in the process. I have decided that antifreeze is not going to happen because of the cost and that the antifreeze has to be changed out/refreshed every 2-3 years...depending I'm sure on something. Instead, we're going to go with a whole house Generac generator.
The initial cost for the whole house generator will be a bit more than the antifreeze, but I will have that peace of mind knowing that "IF" we go away somewhere in the winter and the power goes out..within seconds the aux power will come on. And a friend of mine says he' would stop over after work and check that the pump is in fact working. IF the pump were to quit, and the generator is running, the heat from the house furnace will keep the pipes warm.
So now we just have to get through this winter without any sub-zero temps...I told my wife, that if for some reason we "had" to leave for a weekend this winter, if I know somewhat in advance that we're going in the deep freeze...hell I'll just drain the entire system.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
Lugnut
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I think the genset is a better idea than the antifreeze and I am sure you will too in a couple of years if not sooner.
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I have had a gererac for several years and have no complants. Starts when power goes off shuts down when power comes back on. I think you will enjoy the convience and piece of mind. Not to mention its nice having water,lights and heat instead of sitting in the dark and cold when power is off.
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Could you install another pump in the basement and wire it to come on with the back up generator? Just split the line and install a check valve in the every day line and the pump on the other side. Probably would have to install a timer on the power side so that it would not turn on for however long your gen set does it weekly run up. Although I do not believe it would hurt to have two pumps running for a short time frame. This is something that I am planning on doing myself next year. But I do not have it all figured out yet.
: )
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Could you install another pump in the basement and wire it to come on with the back up generator? Just split the line and install a check valve in the every day line and the pump on the other side. Probably would have to install a timer on the power side so that it would not turn on for however long your gen set does it weekly run up. Although I do not believe it would hurt to have two pumps running for a short time frame. This is something that I am planning on doing myself next year. But I do not have it all figured out yet.
: )
No check valve or anything would be needed. Just put the second pump in series. A lot of people run 2 pumps all the time.
A second pump is a very good idea and I was going to suggest it if no one else did. Probably putting it on a strap on aquastat to turn on when the pipe gets cold would be best as it would be an automatic backup but then I would also put a light or something on it so you know the first pump died. (it would keep cycling on and off this way but get you through without anything getting cold)
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Guessing that he does not need a second pump for lift. My thought was to keep them separated for easier servicing/replacement of the original. I like the idea of the aqua-stat. Good thinking!
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You don't need to keep the spare running. Water flows through them ok when they are shut off. It is probably better for backup pump too because the water will probably keep the impeller turning a little and not have it frozen up when you go to start it.
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AHHHHH
Understood!
That is why I am the new guy just getting ready to give things a go. And reading all I can.
Thanks!