Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: AirForcePOL on March 04, 2009, 03:14:55 PM
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I recently have decided that I am going to buy a OWB. I have been looking online for a while and have found many different OWB's that i believe would work for me. I will probably go with the Woodmaster 4400 and plan on heating my 1500 square foot house, hot water and eventually my 30x40 garage. Will this unit do all of that? One thing I was wondering about is if this model has some of the features that other brands do. I am new to these so I dont know all of the OWB lingo but do the Woodmasters have the fan in the unit that gets the fire going untill the water reaches the desired temp.? I was also wondering if anyone would recomend this furnace and what kind of expierience's others have had with this brand. If anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Alex.
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I installed a Woodmaster 3300 this past December and love it. The 4400 was a bigger furnace than I needed since I only heat 1250 sq.ft. + domestic hot water, but I think it would do what you need. I know a guy in my neighborhood that has a 4400 and "Loves It". I should have bought mine along time ago. My house has been 74* along winter and I have all the hot water that we can use.. Even when it was -10*. They are a force draft OWB ( fan induced fire). I load mine every twelve hours, but not always full ( depends on outside temp). I've been burning hickory, cherry, beech, soft & hard maple, ash and some poplar (4.5 cords so far). I split my wood since it's been seasoned only three months before burning. I've found that blown down and standing dead hardwood burns great. I've been building up my supply for next year now so it has time to season. As you know there are many makes and models to choose from. I believe the Woodmaster is not complicated to operate but has enough "bells and whistles" to compete with the others. I've had to do nothing or adjust anything since the install. Good luck! Any other questions just ask. :thumbup:
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Thanks for all the info sounds like woodmaster has a pretty good product. Do you know how big of diamater wood will burn in these units?
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I am not sure of the door size of the 3300, but if you get a 4400 if you can lift it off the ground it will fit. I had a couple of rounds this winter that I could barely lift up to the door and they fit in easily. The 4400 has a huge door opening.
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awesome.... do the bigger logs have any big effect on how well the furnace works?
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when I put the bigger rounds in, I can usually get 24 hours out of them, I still have to put smaller peices in around them every 12-16 hours.
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Ok, thanks for all the help!
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I also have a 4400 and put some big rounds in there if you can lift it it will burn it up
I am heating almost 3000 sq feet and get 14 to 16 hr burn time when its below zero
I am very happy with woodmaster.
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I have a woodmaster 4400 for 4 years now and love it. I heat about 4000 sq ft and domestic water. In the 4 years the only issue that I have had is I had to replace the fan and the door gasket. The door opening is 24 x 24 so anything that size or smaller can go in.
If you use the bigger logs, you do have to fill in with smaller ones around it.
The electronic control panel is the best, you can easily adjust your water temps to the outside conditions and save wood. It is much easier and user friendly than the aquastats. I have used about 12 cords this season but Indiana has been very cold (darn global warming) and windy.
My house is a 2 story with R-19 in the walls and r-38 in the roof, BUT I have only corn fields around me so there are no wind breaks.
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Thats good to hear. I live in Illinois and like you I am in the middle of a corn field with very little wind breaks besides a few pine trees that dont really do much. I must do something because am not going to put up with the $500 a month propane bills anymore. I have an unlimited supply of wood from a friend of mine that owns a tree trimming business so there is no reason to not buy a OWB I just wasn't sure which one to get. Im glad that I found this site before buying. All of you have been very helpfull thanks everyone! If anyone has anymore info or tips please help me out. Thanks, Alex
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My next advice to you after purchase is don't skimp on the install. I mean use a good brand of underground pex, such as Thermapex, Rehau ( I used), Logstor, and Etc. This pex pipe transports the heated water from the furnace to your home underground. It's more expensive (12.00 to 14.00 per. ft..), but worth it in the long run. It is four or five inches in diameter with a outer plastic shell and has either 2- 1" or 2- 1 1/4" pex lines in cased in foam insulation in side. I have mine down two feet below ground level and I still have snow on top of ground. You don't want to heat the ground and your home.
Wood burning size. I'm with the rest what will fit through the stove door and I can lift goes in then fill in around them alittle. Keep us posted on how you make out. I was burning 772 gallons of oil a year avg. and heating my hot water with electric. Since installing the OWB I haven't bought any oil and my light bill is down $15.00 a month. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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wow thats pretty expensive... my woodmaster dealer told me it would be about $3.00 a foot. I will check it out though sounds like it really makes a difference. Thanks.
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Yeah it is expensive. It sounds like your Woodmaster dealer sells the same as mine. I bought my Rehau pipe from a plumbing supplier. I've read that it's important not to have the pex lines in the pipe touch or run along side each other. Because say your OWB is sending 170* water to your home and the water returning after heating your home & hot water is 160* and the lines are touching, heat will be transfering or equally out somewhat. My boiler water loses less than one degree from OWB to basement (100') where it enters my home. It all depends how much you have to spend and how much wood to burn. ???
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I sort of made my own pipe. I ran (as usual) 2 lenghths of pex from house to stove. We wrapped them in foam pipe insulation ( the kind that comes in approx. 8' lengths and is slit to put around the pipe). That whole shebang is encased in 4" PVC pipe. I've never measured my heat loss but I'll tell you it's negligable. I run about 75 ' from furnace to house. Plus my 110V power and thermostat wires run in the PVC. Perhaps a lower cost option for you.
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That sounds like a pretty nice settup. I might look into that it might be a better option for be because I only need to run about 50 ft. Thanks for the idea!
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I ran my pex similiar to the way Jason did, but I also wrapped it in 3 layers of HVAC bubble wrap. Then I slid it inside a 6" corrigated drain pipe. I burried it 28" - 38" deep, depending on the rock I hit. I covered the 6" pipe with sand to the top of it, then cut 12" wide pieces of 2" thick Tuff-R insulation board and laid in the ditch on top of the pipe and sand, then covered it up with dirt. I was told early on that heat loss equals more firewood to cut. I tried not to skimp.
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If you look in the photo album section of this forum, you can see a pic in my album of the pipe poking through my basement wall. Look in the site suggestion thread and the link to it is in one of Phin Phan's posts. We just doped and glued the PVC together like normal. It was a bit of a hassle sliding the pipe lengths over the pex, but well worth it from a cost savings perspective. Another suggestion: run an extra wire for 110V power in case you ever build a woodshed. That way you are ready to put in a couple lights or an outlet. If you ever need it it'll be there and if not, oh well. I didn't do this and I wish I would have.
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If you make your own lines,i recommend u use PVC,not corrugated pipe.The pvc wont leak if glued correctly.The corrugated pipe will evetually leak down the road,letting water in,which your insulation will absorb like a sponge.Once wet,insulation becomes a conductor,you will need to dig it all up,and redo it.Do it once,do it right.
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Yea i will probably just go with pvc it sounds like the best idea. Has anyone ever done heated floors or driveways? I was thinking of doing that in the future after i buy the OWB.
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Yea i will probably just go with pvc it sounds like the best idea. Has anyone ever done heated floors or driveways? I was thinking of doing that in the future after i buy the OWB.
I also ran mine in 4" pvc. My advice would be to dig trench with a backhoe so you have room to work down in the trench, I used a trencher and I can tell you it was a real PITA. Unless you have a straight run with no bends, trying to make a bend and getting everything to fit down in a 4-5 inch wide trench is NOT easy. Also my settup is on a side hill so at the lowest point in the trench, I ran a T and ran a drain down the hill and daylighted the end so if I do get any water inside the pipe I can drain it out. All it takes is 1 glue joint that isn't perfect and you will get some water inside the pipe, with frost moving the pipe around I think it may be inevidable.
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Yea i will probably just go with pvc it sounds like the best idea. Has anyone ever done heated floors or driveways? I was thinking of doing that in the future after i buy the OWB.
air force....heated driveways...i installed a setup like this 15 years ago in a car wash...at that time i used just 3/4 black pipe set on 3" of blue foam and we used a small swiming pool heater to heat the "water" (glycol and water mix)
the owner told me afterwards that he only ran the thing from 6 am till 10 am and the floor stayed warm enough to keep the ice off all day (of coarse the car wash had 3 walls and a ceiling for protection and was closed by 10 pm)
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Do you remember how far apart you put the lines? I was thinking maybe about every foot. I am also planning on putting heated floors in my garage when i put it up. Do you think i will need another pump to run the garage and driveway? i wont do the whole driveway so maybe 30ft of it. And my garage will be 30x40. Any suggestions?
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Do you remember how far apart you put the lines? I was thinking maybe about every foot. I am also planning on putting heated floors in my garage when i put it up. Do you think i will need another pump to run the garage and driveway? i wont do the whole driveway so maybe 30ft of it. And my garage will be 30x40. Any suggestions?
for your garage floor ...this is a good way to heat but to do it properly is costly you should be very careful on your underground preperation for this type of heat
you need to actually have your garage floor in a "bowl" of insulation to prevent heat loss (keep it to the very minimun)
most folks don't fully understand heat loss in this type of system. we are all taught early that "heat rises"..not entirely true in this case...heat GOES to cold is a better way of thinking
so to prevent this (again, keep it to a minimum) you need to insulate under your floor and on all edges of your floor. 12 inches apart is likley a good choice for spacing in the floor and i would keep a zone down to under 200 feet of pipe
i am no heating expert and my opinions are made from my experiences in dealing with helping friends install their systems and working close by real professional installers and seeing what they have done
as for another pump or not..i would vote for a complete seperate closed loop system with glycol (antifreeze) water mix heated by a 40 or 50 plate exchanger with an expansion tank, so if you wanted to "not heat" your floor or slab anytime you would not need to run the system
if you heated your garage slab and your outside drive i would recomend a "bypass" so you could isolate your driveway and continue to heat your garage
what you propose to do...can be done quite easily..but will not be cheap compared to water to air heat exchanger and blower (typical hot air furnace) but when you are laying on the floor working on your car or truck the floor heat will sure be nice
i did a small floor radiant heat in my sun room, room is about 250 square feet, one zone do it yourself project ..cost me about 1500 bucks....2 inches of insulation under floor..1/2 pex at 12" centers...small taco pump, zone valve and mixing valve
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I purchased a 434 Woodmaster in 2001. Always used their chemicals and kept stove clean. Stove leaked at 4.5 years and 8 years. With their prorated warranty you will pay after 5 years, 60%,70%,80%,90% of repair costs to weld boiler. Look for a stove with a long warranty if prorated or have a welder ready.
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I was told to not even pay attention to the warranty because they wont cover anything anyway. Other than a little welding have you had any other problems? I have a welder buddy of mine that lives about 2 miles down the road.
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I just had a guy that does installs of gasification boilers tell me he uses 1 1/4" microflex pipe for the underground runs. 1" will limit your heat transfer to 100,000 btu's. So you'll burn wood that you will never see the heat from, if your try to get more than 100,000 btu's from your stove. Plus bigger pipe lets you run a smaller pump. Less power consumption.I have 1 inch logstor which was like 12 dollars a foot. He showed me the microflex has "inch more" insulation between the outside of the pipe and the pipe itself inside , than my logstor has. Oh well, live and learn. Also the Microflex is alot easier to bend. For what it's worth to give you a nice install for all your efforts and money. Hope this helps . I had a woodmaster and can only say it treated me fine too.
Charlie
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No other problems, but chasing leaks around the back of the boiler can be a challenge, because it is welded from the back side, not inside the drum. Good luck, I will pass on Wood master next time!
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AirForcePOL I know you think I am a real ass and so does Willie. You didn't listen to me in the last post and I am sure you won't this time, but here goes anyway. Make sure you know what you are getting your self into before you spend your money. Number one have you ever cut a lot of wood ? Go out and cut a truck load and I don't mean an S10 chevy load either, I'm talking a 3/4 ton truck,all you can stack on it. Now go do this 30 more times and you have enough to get you through the winter. Also know that you have to feed the stove whether you want to or not or it will freeze up. If you get sick like the flu, tough, you still have to feed it. If you want to go somewhere in the winter, tough, someone has to feed the stove. If you run short on wood,tough,you still have to feed the stove, You said you wanted a warentee when you talked to me but in the above post you said you heard the warentee wasn't any good anyway. Well I never had to use the warentee but I am a welder by trade so I probably wouldn't have called them anyway. If the dealer is trying to sell you that cheapo bubble wraped pipe for $3.00 a foot, you better re think that. Good foam insulated under ground pipe run's between $9.00 and $13.00 a foot depending on where you buy it. Ross told you the truth about the unit's being welded on the outside and not the inside, I really don't know why they do it this way. This does not mean it will leak. All of these OWB's are basically the same, nothing more than a tank welded inside of another tank with a door. You build a fire and heat up water. Your Question about the fan, yes the fan comes on to rise the water temp to the preset you have programed into the electronic control. This stuff isn't rocket science, you build a fire and heat water. They are all over priced in my opinion. This is low tech stuff. Most of the people that buy one would be better off spending the money on insulation, better windows,a high efficiency furnace or what ever. The items I just mentioned will raise the value of your home. An outdoor boiler rising the value is questionable at best. And on one last note,no one is going to ban more insulation or better windows in your house. Probably a lot less arguments with the wife on how the money was spent too. One final note, if you want to heat a house , a garage and a driveway, you better get a lot bigger unit than the 4400.
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never said you were an ass..and what you have stated has more truth in it than not..as i have posted in many messages before...i am not sure if you neeed quite that much wood..but i do feel you will need (within a cord or two either way) 8 to 10 bush cords and yes i have posted and agree with you...perhaps spending 6 to 10 grand (you would spend on your OWB) on weather proofing your home will (and can) bring your heating bill down to a managable amount
as for freezing your stove..well you can use an antifreeze solution so that wont happen (more expense)
also ..most folks keep their original heat system so if you get sick or run out of wood you can just let your original heater take over
and if you don't have anitfreeze in your stove and it is only water and you get sick or run out of wood...darin the stove..its only water
there are many reasons not to buy an OWB and only a few to buy one...think it over carefully
you need to be able to get cheap wood
you need equipment to harvest that wood
you need time
you need health
you may be lucky enough to be able to buy your wood for a reasonable price
wood in my area can still be had for under 200 dollars a cord..if you used 10 cord ..would 2000 dollars be less than you are paying for heat now?
as i said zipper i don't consider you an ass...but you keep telling me i do.... and eventually i will
i think all the points you mentioned are good ones...but i also think you learned them too late (after some dealer sucked you into buying one)
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sorry for not proof reading...i meant drain the stove if it is just water
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This may sound odd to some people, but one of the reasons I bought an owb is for the work, I was born and raised on a dairy farm and was taught how to work and a work ethic from a young age. I never really appreciated this untill I was older and realized most kids these days have no work ethic and have no idea how to work.
I don't live on a farm now, and it has always been a concern to me, how I would find enough things for my kids to do, to teach them what I learned as a kid, and am thankful for. I think most parents today are majorly dropping the ball in this area.
I have 4 kids, and we all go out to the woods, cut ,split,stack, as a family,from my 4 year old daughter to my 11 year old son,and it is actually kind of a fun time for us as a family. When they get a little older they will also be loading the stove/ maintaining and such.
Ok I'll get off my soapbox now
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After having owned one I can give you about 100 reasons not to buy one and only one reason to buy. The freeze up issue, yes you can antifreeze the system however if you have checked on the current price of biodegradable antifreeze, I think you will find purchasing enough to do an OWB is cost prohibitive. And as for draining down the system, that's a pain in the butt because to be sure you must blow out the lines also and you will lose all your boiler chemicals. I was dead serious about the the wood consumption, in my case it was just a ridicules amount. Yes my house heats hard but if you have new well insulated energy efficient house then why do want to mess with wood heat anyway. As for all the wood mess being outside I'll say this a mess is still there and you still have to keep it cleaned up. You are constantly tied down because you have to be there to feed it. One thing that hasn't been discussed is installed price opposed to to the on the lot dealer price. Along with the boiler you will need the underground pipe, the pump or pumps if more than one zone, also all the heat exchangers, valves and other hardware. Unless you are capable of doing all the install yourself then you must hire someone to do it for you. This can turn a $6000 boiler into $9000 system quicker than you think. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with an OWB if that's what you want, just make sure it is before you spend your money. The one and only good thing is the fire safety issue. No one suckered me into buying anything, did that stupid mistake all by myself.
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We all have choice's to make in life.I made the choice to change from heating with wood inside to using the OWB and so far I am glad that I did . This is the third year heating with the OWB and if gas prices stay the same as this year the boiler will have paid for itself in one more heating season. Yes I was able to do all the install myself and I am sure that was a plus. Having to go out one or two times a day for about three or four minutes each time doesn't cramp my style.Spending some time cutting and stacking wood is not a problem either.The Mrs. helps and that is another plus. I knew going into it that there would be some work involved,but not so much that I mind doing it. Keeping things cleaned up is not a problem either if you keep up with it.
I am sorry it didn't work for you,but I am glad that we did it.
RW
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zipper and RW both of you make good points for and against the OWB and that is what i think this site is meant to be ..a discussion about the OWB.
I agree with you zipper whole heartedly, you should put much thought into buying one of these brutes, and with your post about the true cost that is why i agreed with you on insulation and making your home more energy efficient..i believe as you that the true cost of an OWB if you can not do the hook up yourself could run well over 15 grand (i have heard one near me going at 18 grand installed and hooked up with only 80 feet of underground pipe
15 G could buy a lot of weatherproofing and insulation!
I built my own for under 1200 bucks plus the pipes and rads and things
one of the bad things about these stoves (my belief only) is that the life of one of these things is "on average" about 10 or 12 years so lets say an average price delivered and hooked up is 10 or 12 grand, tht figures out to 1000 a year towards the cost of your fuel every year so again lets pretend your fuel bill is 2 grand a year..by cutting all that wood you are saving 1000 a year so in ten years you have saved enough to maybe buy another stove to do the same thing over again
now on the good side, i am with RW..i think the family in the bush together is a great thing...you can actually trick your kids into spending time with you and bonding..i think the time in the bush does teach good work ethics..builds character and you won't believe how much more your teenagers will open up to you with what is really going on in their lives
yes the mess is still outside...but that makes for a lot cleaner house it is much easier to scrape up the bark and chips and have a little fire in the side yard than sweep and mop and dust the house from top to bottom from flying ash or smoke damage from a backed up chimney
and you do sleep better (at least i do) knowing that wood fire is outside and not in your basement or family room
there are some good reasons for different folks on why to buy an OWB but i don't think it should be just to save money...i'm not sure you really do
for the kind of money these things are demanding now and with the grants available for other heat sources, there may be better alternitives for some folks
but im gonna cut wood another 8 or 10 years i hope
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Zipper, Ohio you both make great points and I have been heating with wood for over 20 years. Outdoor wood stoves are the best way to go. If you like work and chain saws you bought into the right deal . But I hate chasing leaks in minus temps. As for anti-freeze I'am glad I did not lose 300 gallons. I do not mind the work or welding, BUT I DO HATE the nonchalant attitude you get from WoodMasters. The question is should I buy a Woodmaster? I say NO! Here is my point, let me know if you agree or disagree. At 4-1/2 years the stove leaks and they patch it. They told me durning manufacturing some person that was working for them cut the plate off the backside of the drum with a plasma cutter, etching a line in the drum. They tell me I must not have been using their chemicals, so they check their records and I purchased more than enough chemicals. I have always used a rain cap, cleaned stove completely out at shut down, changed water and chemicals, covered the chimney. At 7-1/2 years their patch leaks, They want me to cover 80% of repair bill or they will give me $700 dollars on a trade-in. Their patch fails and I should pay for repairs? Take note if your stove fails before 5 years, demand a new stove. Lesson learned! Let me know what you think and I will stop crying about it and get back to welding.
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You guys have both really hit the nail on the head about the pros and cons. I too grew up on a dairy farm. We still run the farm but the dairy cows have been gone for 9 years now (wow). My 8 month old boy is the 5th generation of our family to live in this house. But ours is a family that works. Period. Sure we hunt and camp but we are workers. That's not said out of pride or shame-it's just the truth. I like having the responsibility of cutting, splitting, and stacking wood to keep my wife and baby boy warm. She goes out with me when she can, as do my dad, brother, and father in law. We all really like getting all bundled up in the winter and keeping the home fire going, as it were. I like walking up to the furnace on a cold, clear winter night and watching for meteors and satellites (yes you can sometimes see them with the naked eye). It's just part of life and I enjoy it a lot, even with all of Zipper's negatives thrown into the mix.