Print

[jcc273]

Long article, but it makes a lot of sense.  Surprising it came from a wealthy person:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014_full.html#.U7WLffldWuM

[Sloppy_Snood]

Really good read.

[mlappin]

Yeah, kinda of. Do you want a high school dropout who can't hold a job running the corporation you collect your check from or somebody that has experience in the corporate world, will grow your company, your paycheck and your possibilities? The latter just might be worth that exorbitant salary.

Not to get into politics here, but I have a few friends who won't take a crap unless the union says it's OK, they hate the rich, period.There is no telling them without the rich investing in startups very well could be no Apple, Microsoft, etc. The rich also invest in pharmaceutical companies for R&D, what life savings drugs may not exist now.

While I do agree the gap is widening I don't think the rich are to blame, more like the government and the fallacy that everybody has to go to college. I read an interesting article a while ago, certain degrees if earned from quite a lot of colleges are money losers right from the start as in the field you got that degree in will never pay enough to justify the expense of the degree. Said people were better off going into a trade instead.

[jcc273]

Yeah, kinda of. Do you want a high school dropout who can't hold a job running the corporation you collect your check from or somebody that has experience in the corporate world, will grow your company, your paycheck and your possibilities? The latter just might be worth that exorbitant salary.

Not to get into politics here, but I have a few friends who won't take a crap unless the union says it's OK, they hate the rich, period.There is no telling them without the rich investing in startups very well could be no Apple, Microsoft, etc. The rich also invest in pharmaceutical companies for R&D, what life savings drugs may not exist now.

While I do agree the gap is widening I don't think the rich are to blame, more like the government and the fallacy that everybody has to go to college. I read an interesting article a while ago, certain degrees if earned from quite a lot of colleges are money losers right from the start as in the field you got that degree in will never pay enough to justify the expense of the degree. Said people were better off going into a trade instead.

I don't think that article suggests that a lower qualified person runs a corporation or that the rich stop investing in things, it simply suggests that everyone benefits from a hike in minimum wage not just the low income families.  It basically states that by giving people more money they will buy more stuff in turn making you more money.  Makes sense to me, as long as imports are maintained i guess to prevent undercutting from cheap labor.

A raise in minimum wage used to make me nervous about job cuts but a lot of things he says makes sense.  He states that it's something that won't really work if only one company raises wages though and it is basically the responsibility of the government to keep a capitalistic society from becoming a feudal society:

Capitalism, when well managed, is the greatest social technology ever invented to create prosperity in human societies. But capitalism left unchecked tends toward concentration and collapse. It can be managed either to benefit the few in the near term or the many in the long term. The work of democracies is to bend it to the latter. That is why investments in the middle class work. And tax breaks for rich people like us don’t. Balancing the power of workers and billionaires by raising the minimum wage isn’t bad for capitalism. It’s an indispensable tool smart capitalists use to make capitalism stable and sustainable. And no one has a bigger stake in that than zillionaires like us.

I agree with you on those other points!  I have thankfully never worked for a union, but there is GE plant near where i live and time and time again i have seen them screw their selves out of jobs which are then sent to a new non-unionized plant in Texas.  Just last summer the union was presented with the option to agree to a wage freeze (i forget for how long) or lose 1,000 jobs... guess what they chose : /.  And believe me they are paid well, a wage freeze seemed like it would have been a good choice to me.

I also agree with you on the college issue.  That is something I routinely get pissed off about.  I read a satirical essay about it once (forget the name), but i basically discussed how you would need a college degree to collect garbage before long.  Everyone can't go to college because you need people to do those other types of jobs still.  I always tell younger people unless you know what you really want to do and it requires going to college then don't go because you are just wasting your time and money.  I always say hard work is what gets you places in this world not a piece of paper.

[mlappin]

Raising everybody's wage is fine as long as it isn't a mandate by the government. Scariest thing most people will ever hear is we are from the government and are here to help.

If you want to raise wages then a North Dakota needs done everywhere, let demand dictate wages. McDonalds is paying over $15/hour starting out in the boom towns.

[mlappin]

So I own a business, my payroll this friday is XXX, next week after a new government mandate comes out my payroll is now XXXXX, seems like a good way to drive business right back out of the country. Business was starting to come back because shipping from china is getting more expensive as well as labor in china.

[slimjim]

Where the heck is that Darn LIKE Button

[mlappin]

Where the heck is that Darn LIKE Button

Since being an admin, I've been trolling around in the settings and other hidden magical stuff, so far I haven't found a way to add one.

Of course also haven't contacted tech support directly yet.

[slimjim]

Well when you do find it , give yourself a great big LIKE on me.

[jcc273]

For the most part I am pretty against the government sticking its fingers in things it shouldn't especially when they involve my personal liberties.  And talks of raising minimum wage in the past I have always been against because my thought is it increases the costs of running a business there by decreasing profits and in turn decreasing employment or increasing prices and just equaling everything out. 

But all I am saying is this guy's article makes some sense to me, but unfortunately it relies on everyone raising wages within a MARKET equally.  For example if in town xyz wal-mart raises its wages but the target doesn't then they just gave themselves a disadvantage because target can basically undercut prices due to the lower costs associated with their labor and pull in the majority of the new business created by wal-marts higher wages.  However, if wal-mart and target raise wages equally then we keep equality in costs between the two AND increase the amount of money the employees have thereby increasing their spending on items from wal-mart and target which in turn increases the profits of both companies to make up for the higher wages and making it a win-win for all parties involved. 

Currently 1 out of 5 wal-mart shoppers are on government subsidies and increasing minimum wage above the poverty line means in many cases they can stop giving our money to away to other people.

The government is necessary and does have its place in this country.  I believe in many cases it extends it reach much too far but it should definitely be responsible for protecting this country and for keeping big business in check.  The only way wages can be increased in a highly competitive market is by a mandate of sorts because otherwise not everyone is going to do the same which will kill the company that does.

You cannot let demand dictate wages because they work hand in hand.  A demand for more employees comes from more business and more business comes from more customers or sales.  But how can you get more customers when your customers are your employees and you don't hire any more or pay them more?  Business creates its own demand.  Boom towns there is something else (oil and gas) driving an influx of people with money and creates a demand for more business, but this isn't something that happens all over these cases are the exception and what happens when after awhile the population stabilizes and we have company A come in and undercut all the prices by paying a lower wage because there is nothing preventing it?  Boom we are just like every other place again.

Imports are a big killer here too.  I work in the electronics industry and our niche is small-medium volume products because the costs associated with having a facility in china and shipping are more than what you save on the cheap labor over there.  Once a customer crosses into the large volume threshold we lose them and you can't blame them because we cannot even buy parts for what they can make the whole board for over there.  Their quality is awful, but for that price it is something you live with.  This is another area where government maybe should play a role.  The goal is to have a strong internal economy that feeds itself.  We need to create our products for our people and be self sustaining society.  We used to be that way but not so much anymore.  Now everything is done outside the country at way cheaper costs making it impossible to compete for a company within the country.  I don't know what the answer is for this, but it just sucks.

I am not in total agreement with raising minimum wage still, but all I am saying is this guys article was interesting and I am no longer in total disagreement on raising it : ).  I was in no way trying to say that the gov. needs to raise wages right now I was just saying have an open mind and read the article, the logic makes sense.  And the example cities (seattle and san fran) speak volumes toward his point.

[mlappin]

It does make sense to an extent.

But he also admits he isn't the smartest guy around and admits to being lucky and investing at the right time.

Simply put, you raise the cost of doing business the products that business produces will rise in cost. So those previous lower paid workers who are now making more are also spending more to maintain the same standard of living, so where is the gain?

If fearless leader mandates that I have to pay my workers for example 40% more then one of two things are going to happen:

1: they are now going to have to do 40% more work to justify the higher wage

2: I'm going to get rid of 40% of em, the "lucky" remaining ones can do their work plus the work of the 40% that were let go.

McDonalds, Arby's, Walmart and other employers along those lines were never meant to be careers that you could raise a family on unless you were management. The jobs I just mentioned were meant to be something high school kids do part time, college graduates do to make extra money or to live on while they were waiting for replies from the resume's they've just sent out after graduating college.

Back in the day when I was younger the phone at the farm would ring off the hook with kids wanting to bale hay for the summer, now you can't pay em enough or get em to put the cell phone down long enough to get any work out of them if you can even find any that would show up.

The mentality of doing manual labor or getting your hands dirty is beneath todays kids that the public schools are instilling in them is not just plain moronic but also dangerous. This country will always need welders, plumbers, electricians, and mechanics. If you must goto college then get a useful degree, like nursing, accounting, or engineering. A degree in Gay and Lesbian studies of the 16th century is not useful and you'll be hard pressed to ever pay your student loans off, dumbass.

Also dangerous is the mentality of get that college degree and you'll be guaranteed a job thats starts at $75000 a year, a months worth of vacation and a company car, said mentality is the result of too much 90120 on the boob tube as my grandfather called it.

Don't blame the companies like Walmart for not paying enough, blame the idiots in Washington that have screwed the economy up enough that the only jobs are at Walmart.

From personal experience I've found those that beat the raise the wage drum the loudest have never had to meet payroll, have never even run their own business, usually the last to clock in and the first to clock out, and usually only ever sign the back of a check and never the front.

[mlappin]

The government is necessary and does have its place in this country.  I believe in many cases it extends it reach much too far but it should definitely be responsible for protecting this country and for keeping big business in check.  The only way wages can be increased in a highly competitive market is by a mandate of sorts because otherwise not everyone is going to do the same which will kill the company that does.

Yes it does, deliver the mail, print money and defend the borders are the only things the government was intended to do originally. Out of those three it's screwing all three up. Overprinting money, it's obvious they can't defend our southern border and if I want something delivered on time it goes UPS or Fedex.

[slimjim]

To Hell with the like button, I LOVE YOU MLAPPIN

[mlappin]

To Hell with the like button, I LOVE YOU MLAPPIN

Don't even get me started. I could go off on the VA for days on the way they are treating my father in law.

[slimjim]

What a Shame!