Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: sceptre74 on March 09, 2014, 08:30:41 AM
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As some of you already know, I have a deposit on a P and M BL 2840. Won't be here until July, but I guess it's never too early to start with the install. I currently have a forced air wood and oil furnace, 2 seperate units. I'll be putting a water to air hx in the plenum and a water to water hx for my domestic. I also want to run a baseboard heater to my upstairs bathroom, so I wasn't exactly sure how to go about it the correct way. I decided to get in contact with slimjim and was I ever glad I did. I definitely would have run into major issues trying to do this all on my own. What he suggested I do was have my owb run come into a 50 plate hx and then setup a primary secondary loop for the in side install. This way I shouldn't have to worry about ghost flow especially with the baseboard upstairs.
I have most of the parts for the manifold and plan on starting to piece if together very soon. I'll post some pics as it comes along.
For anyone interested, here is a pic of the manifold that slimjim uses. I was a little confused at first as to how it works, but now totally understand it's purpose. It would be best to direct questions to him on how it all works
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What does the flaming decaldo? :P >:D
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There is a unit heater there dumping heat from the 250 on my show trailer, the deco is to attract attention to it. The manifold is brought to the shows so that people can take pictures and use them to build their own, it's compact and very functional, in fact it's in my shop right now hooked up to my chip boiler supplying the heat for home and shop. Thanks sceptre74, I've been wanting to get that posted for a long time now.
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No problem. I really appreciate all your help so far. It's the least I could do
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Where is a manifold of such design actually installed? :-\ In the house or within the plumbing by the water jacket on the OWB itself? :-\
Any chance we could get a little explanation as to "what is what" and "this does this, and this does that" with respect to the assembled manifold?
Cheers! ;D
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The manifold is setup in the basement. The water from the owb enters on the right side in this particular setup. The aquastat is hooked up on the hot side and then wired to the indoor boiler/furnace. Not sure which circuit it goes to. It cuts the power to it as long as the water temperature is above 160. If the owb water falls below 160, power is restored to the boiler/furnace until the water temperature starts to increase or set temp on the thermostat is reached.
The left side is used for whatever your indoor setup is or will be. Hope I didn't confuse anyone as much as I was when I first saw this. Lol
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Pre built manifolds make installs and controls very simple and quick. Good quality control too
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GREAT job explaining that Sceptre74, thank you.
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Thank you for the picture (slimjim too) and explanation sceptre! 8)
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No problem. Hopefully it helps someone in the future.
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I saw this set up at Slim's this weekend and have a few questions.
-OWB on right side(this set up)
-House side on left
-Both pumps on supply sides to OWB and house
-Water flows through plate exchanger in opposite direction(think Slim mentioned this)
-Water fill for OWB is on the return side of exchanger
These are pretty basic questions as I am still trying to grasp the whole concept.
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No worries. I'm still asking questions about this and lots of other stuff.
Yes,yes,yes,yes and yes. My finished install will be a little different, but basically the same. I'll try to post up the pic slim drew for me
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Here it is
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You should try to locate your expansion tank on the intake side of the circulator, not the output side, perhaps removing it from the air separator.
The 26-99 is a plenty hefty circulator, are you going to manage speed control?
Neal
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Yes, going to leave it on low and see how that works. Might end up using the two spade loops in the near future so might as well have the pump big enough from the get go.
What's the reason for the tank on the intake side?
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Here is an article on PONPC point of no pressure change and pumping away.
http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/ (http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/)
If your zone circulators have flow checks the 26-99 is unnecessary. There is no volume of water in the loop like a boiler would have. Just not enough mass in the flat plate. Also all of the returns should be on the lower return line so as to keep supply temps even going to the zones. This diagram is good if the flat plate had mass like a boiler or was a buffer tank and the primary circ would only need to be a 007 or 15-58 which would supply upto 15 GPM with 1.25" headers.
This would be considered a tricky pipe layout. I would use a spirovent where it is and move the makeup to the lower return pipe to maintain the PONPC. In this case. The flat plate changes the little details. Nice job there , your on the right track.
Will your boiler lines be 1.25" ID also? You could possibly cut your electric usage by 50% or more , if sized to use smaller or ECM circulators.
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Underground lines are going to be 1 inch Logstor which I guess is close to others 1 1/4. I'm contemplating putting a bumblebee on the primary loop since it will be running all the time. Nice to try and save energy where you can
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Ok, well if you changed the zone circulators to zone valves then you could use just 1 bumblebee to serve the zones upto 15 GPM or 150kbtu/hr at 180 supply. That's a lot of heat and a nice simple setup if you go that route. Are you isolating the system with a flat plate because of boiler elevation compared to system zones?
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No, the boiler and basement are pretty much at the same level. Since I'm putting the baseboard in the second story bathroom, we figured a pressurized system would be best to keep air out of the system. Possibly going to put infloor down the road so I'll be ready for it
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Here is an article on PONPC point of no pressure change and pumping away.
http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/ (http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/)
:post:
Sorry I have been sick the last few days sceptre!
Neal
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Sprinter, where do you come up with these wild numbers???
The other day you were telling someone they would only achieve 7 GPM with a 130ft run of logstor
Now your telling someone it's gonna be easy as pie to get 15 GPM out of a bumble bee bump that's equivalent to an 008 in performanc, on an even longer run of logstor.
I've got a bumble bee on my main loop and my stove is roughly 70 ft from the house, it travels through a 20 plate and 16 20 and my flow rate is very low. But I see you telling people all the time ohh, it's no problem to get 12-15 GPM out of a small 75-130 dollar pump. That's simply not true in any stretch of the imagination, most of these folks are placing there boilers 100ft or more from there homes, it's not like there in the basement flowing through a header.
Also, u keep insisting it doesn't matter where the pump goes???? Why? That may be true in the pressurized world but pump location can be crucial in these open systems and many of the dealers here will tell you where we see the most pump failures, it's always most commonly on pumps not located on the back of the stove.
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Details grasshopper details. I'm referring to the load side only with the 1.25" headers and zones. I don't think I mention anything about the boiler side circ.... when headers are sized right a bumblebee might be maxed out there, but they can flow that much. I doubt he will ever see a demand that requires that much and if so not for long. If his calculations come out different he's still a minor change away from still providing variable speed control. I like how this guy has planned and isolated his system for better performance and longevity..when you know darn well many skip or ignore that part. Just by that little detail he won't have the air/circulator associated problems and enjoy longer equipment life, while others will come on here and ask why am I still having problems.
And absolutely yes it doesn't matter where the circ is located when installed correctly. This means NOT installing a circ above boiler waterline, NOT without bleeding or isolation hardware and proper sizing calculations,,,,etc. you just can't slap a system together , fire it up and run , like we see so often. ( Not implying you do this in any way) Far too often all these pump problems are a direct result from poor installation and sizing. Just like the recent post and pictures of the eroding brass fittings in a few months. All they see (mezzmorized actually) is that initial cheapest price and never calculate the seasonal or 5-10 year costs. There is absolutely no reason these circs shouldn't last a minimum of 10 years in an open system. OWB's are not the only application that's not pressurized. Food, chemical,farm....
It sounds like atleast your supply side system is good, just by the fact that you are using a small circulator 007/15-58/bumblebee) for system supply. Less than a $100 pump for the non ECM version, Versus the guy who has gone thru 3 very large and expensive $350 plus circulators and still doesn't know why.
There isn't enough good guys like you Scott to ensure everything is done right. But by having a place where accurate info and methods can be shared, hopefully fewer bad situations can be avoided. Protecting the wood burning hydronic industry name and efficiency helps everyone.
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Here is an article on PONPC point of no pressure change and pumping away.
http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/ (http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/)
:post:
Sorry I have been sick the last few days sceptre!
Neal
No problem. Now I know why. Lol
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Thanks sprinter. I can only wish that it was myself that planned this install. All the accolades must be sent to slimjim. He certainly knows what he's doing
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We have got go be real careful tho telling people these small pumps are good ideas
Here is why I feel that way... first of all, I find it an extremely rare situation across middle America where folks have it set up like a hydronic system with a header etc. Most or 90% I see is a coil in the furnace and a 20 plate at the hot water heater and back to the stove.
So with potentially long runs and a fairly restrictive 20 plate it's important to keep the flow up for boiler protection purposes and heat distribution. I think many folks come here and see someone like me using a bumble bee and want to do that, but fail to realize than in 80% of installs that I see in my part of the country they simply won't work
Now, I'm sure u say well there not doing it right, which in some cases are true but you also have to realize how different our customer bases could be. A LOT of my customers are here because they can't afford there food next month because there heat pump bill was 800 bucks.
I've sen reference to well folks buy a nice truck but skimp on an install, I have seen that as well, but by and large, most of my local customers are scraping by at all means to make it. It's not a cool project or a new toy to them, it's survival.
I often have to argue with folks to use insulated lines haha, can't imagine what would happen if I told them they needed most of the stuff you true hydronic installers like slim and sprinter. The systems you guys work on are rather complex and I know you all do good work. I just rarely get the chance to do something so nice
I've got 1 job coming up where it's all radiant, I'm going to have slim help me on it, I've Def got my ideas on how I think it should be done, but I'm not to proud to ask for more opinions on it. This is why this site is such a good source
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I would be proud to help any way I can Scott, perhaps we can look at it on my way down, thanks for thinking of me!
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I hope for the customers sake, you have a radiant design sized and plan done. All of my wholesalers provide an engineered plan for free as long as I'm buying some of the materials there. Otherwise a $100 is cheap to have a blueprint all sized and calculated so there is no guessing.
How does someone struggling to pay for food afford a new outdoor wood stove system?
There is never a worry about small circulators working right when the correct calculations and design are done. As you can see 99% of residential jobs use the same small circs for many years. This is why a bumblebee or grundfos Alpha is pretty much the only circ we need to stock on the trucks to fit most replacements or upgrades.
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i see in farm books here there is a stove advertised for abut 4 grand that will heat 1 normal sized house...i can tell you that one normal sized house here could easily use 600 dollars of electricity to heat 1 month..so i could see easily averaging 2400 to 3000 for heat in one year..buy a 4 grand wood stove on time and the payments would be less than the years heat likley. and we know fuel rates (no matter what type you use) will keep going up!
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Yea I'll March right down to Lowes and have them draw me one up, you are in your own world, there are no places that does anything even remotely close to that in this part of the world. If I want anything related to hydronic it sure don't come local.
Yea if folks are struggling to pay there 7-800 or more a month heating bills and they can get a wood stove and get a loan for 150 a month suddenly they have moved in the right direction.
Talk to yoder, he knows exactly what I'm talking about. The whole professional I'm an expert gig doesn't fly down here, folks want to deal with someone they feel has been in there shoes and they are extremely leary of anyone who shows up with a logo on there white polo
But in regards to the home with radiant, I've had several rounds of training in hydronic radiant heat and have a descent handle on it.
Most of the systems down here tho end up having 12-18 # of head, those alphas and bumble bees ain't gonna do squat with that...
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Let's not get off course to much here as this is silly and sounds like the crap we see on other forums
But sure, I can design all my systems to where they could use a little tiny circulator, but u can bet I wouldn't sell any of them because for example, I see you telling folks before, " oh you need 1 1/2 inch line from the house to the boiler" . Yea... I see a lot of folks lining up to pay 40 bucks a foot for insulated pipe of such large sized, all for what?? So they can lower there head pressure and use a smaller pump that draws 85 watts vs a larger pump that uses 125?
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How does someone struggling to pay for food afford a new outdoor wood stove system?
So the people that buy furnaces are normally those people or at least those who struggle to pay the gas or electric bill. The rich folks don't buy a wood furnace, why would some rich dude be cutting wood all weekend when he could be out on the lake or something. Good grief, we are in the business of saving people money.
If this wasn't a heck of a way to save people money I don't know I would be doing it. Its not as if I make a lot of money and its hard work. But when I get the customer who is tickled to death because he can finally heat his old farm house that is a really awesome feeling.
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Scott, if you ever need any help on a radiant job I'm happy to help as well. I haven't had anything but the old shoe leather/busted knuckle training on it but around here that goes a long ways. Some folks over think things, sometime simple is the best route especially when you want the customer to understand the system.
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How does someone struggling to pay for food afford a new outdoor wood stove system?
So the people that buy furnaces are normally those people or at least those who struggle to pay the gas or electric bill. The rich folks don't buy a wood furnace, why would some rich dude be cutting wood all weekend when he could be out on the lake or something. Good grief, we are in the business of saving people money.
If this wasn't a heck of a way to save people money I don't know I would be doing it. Its not as if I make a lot of money and its hard work. But when I get the customer who is tickled to death because he can finally heat his old farm house that is a really awesome feeling.
Amen yoder, that's a great feeling and I love it because I to have struggled to pay the high utility bills in the past
That's what I don't understand, what kinda customers they deal with, because customers who can spend that kinda money on a system have to be doing it for more than just financial reasons, maybe it's a new toy or comfort or who knows what.
But i know most of the folks I deal with here, it's a true financial decision to help make ends meet, the comfort the receive is icing on the cake
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Scott, if you ever need any help on a radiant job I'm happy to help as well. I haven't had anything but the old shoe leather/busted knuckle training on it but around here that goes a long ways. Some folks over think things, sometime simple is the best route especially when you want the customer to understand the system.
I appreciate it yoder... experience is often the best teacher.
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It was pretty cool, I got my power bill for the coldest part of the year and it had went up to $95. Guess my blower must have run more.
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It was pretty cool, I got my power bill for the coldest part of the year and it had went up to $95. Guess my blower must have run more.
Up to 95 bucks, hahaha
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How does someone struggling to pay for food afford a new outdoor wood stove system?
So the people that buy furnaces are normally those people or at least those who struggle to pay the gas or electric bill. The rich folks don't buy a wood furnace, why would some rich dude be cutting wood all weekend when he could be out on the lake or something. Good grief, we are in the business of saving people money.
If this wasn't a heck of a way to save people money I don't know I would be doing it. Its not as if I make a lot of money and its hard work. But when I get the customer who is tickled to death because he can finally heat his old farm house that is a really awesome feeling.
I'm sure assistance is out there for wood furnace health care.
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Couple of questions about the schematic sceptre posted from slimjim regarding the air seperator. Have a P&M BL 2840 on the way and accumulating my parts for the install. Have a Spirovent JR Air Eliminator on the way with my parts.
1. In the schematic its shown after the plate exchanger but in the install instructions it says to locate it at the highest temp and lowest pressure point ie before the exchanger and before the pump. Am I misunderstanding something or is it really that critical for proper operation?
2. What is the purpose of the expansion tank on the air seperator in the schematic? Is it necessary?
**edit: Think I just answered the expansion tank question myself. Looks like it would only be necessary on a closed system?
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Jack the drawing is of a primary loop that will constantly have flow through the heat exchanger, it is on the pressurized side of the heat exchanger, placement of the Spirovent will make very little difference in that loop and I think that the most resistance in the loop will be the heat exchanger, everything after that would be the low pressure side
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Gothca slimjim. So in my application (I sent you the schematic the other day) it's a single loop feeding the dhw plate exchanger then the hx in the plenum. My plan is to place the eliminator after the point of entry to the house on the supply side. This would be after the pump but before either hx. It will be the highest point in the line. Would this make a difference since it's before the pump?
On another note, wen we talked on the phone you mentioned isolating the water to air hx with a 2 way zoning valve. I'm a little confused on how to set that up exactly. Could you shoot me that schematic you were bragging about? lol Think you said you sent it to scott by mistake.
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Certainly, would you shoot me your E-Mail address again so I don't have to go looking for it again, Scott did you ever get it?
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Just emailed you. :thumbup:
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Thanks Jack
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So then slimjim, since the pump feeding my water to air will only be coming on when there is a call for heat, will I still need one of those zone valves?
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No but you may wish to interrupt the power wire from the blower motor with a strap on Aqua-stat to keep the blower from coming on before the hot water actually gets to the rad, good catch!
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Let's say there will be 25 ft of 1" pex supply to the hx. Will there be that much time before there is 180* water all through the hx
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M a y b e one minute, it will blow cool air for that short time, will that be OK is the question.
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That is the question. Lol. Maybe I could try it without and if we don't like it, it shouldn't be a big job to install later on. Probably the same as it is now with the indoor unit. The air is always hotter about a half hour after the stove is loaded
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It can easily added any time!
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Get what email slim?
I got a couple from you it weren't sure they were for me haha
Back out in the field I go, be back later
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Just a wiring scematic I think.
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Sceptre, I'm planning a system similar to yours and was wondering what 50 plate you were planning on using. They vary quite a bit, I see 3/4 inlets up to 2-1/2" and ratings up to 500,000 btu/hr when pumped at 51.5 gpm. Brazetek states a pressure drop of 7.3 psi when circulating 51.5 gpm in a 5x12 50 plate. (Pretty sure that has 1" taps) I'm assuming the pressure drop would be less at lower gpm but can't figure out how much less.
Can anyone comment on why this would be better to use than let's say a Brazetek 3 x 8- 20 plate rated at 100,000 btu/hr when the flow is 10.3 gpm and the pressure drop is 5.2 psi? I picked that model because that would seem like a realistic flow in your design.
The chart from another brand (GEA) states minimum flow rates for their fphe's stating that if a minimum flow isn't maintained it will leading to premature clogging. What I would like to find out is:
1. What would be the likely pressure drop in the 50 plate if pumped at 1/5 the recommended rate?
2. Is pumping at less than the manufacturers recommended rate going to shorten the FPHE's life due to internal build up?
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I have a SEC m31b-50. It's a 5 x 12 with 1" ports. A friend of mine was using it with his indoor oil boiler but took it out and decided to run it straight through from the owb. Slimjim recommended this size. Not sure about the rest of your questions, but I'm sure someone will chime in on them
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In regards to how long it takes for 180 water to get somewhere, using 4 feet per second it will cover 100' in 25 seconds, 6 ft/sec = 16 seconds. If it takes a long time for hot air to come out of the ducts, slowing the fan speed will fix this. Too must air velocity will cool before it gets a chance to heat sink everything. This is why all the new high efficiency multi stage or I furnaces run most of the time at low speeds. Some run 24/7 constantly and slowly circulating air without feeling or hearing it. This eliminates cold spots and drafts.
Determining head at different GPM flow is hard without a K value or TEL total equivalent length of pipe, because as flow increases head increases exponentially. Seen on most head loss per foot per GPM charts. Mr. Pex for example. Most flat plates are designed to have low head loss. 500,000kbtu or 51gpm and 7' of head is very low. If slightly oversized your always on the safe side. You would have to have some bad water conditions and some extremely slow water to worry about build up issues. Flow rates much lower than you will ever see, less than 2' per second. Down time is where most of it happens and exactly why some controls have an excercise function built in to prevent exactly this.
Finding a qualified place to do a real hydronic design must be real hard with 23 Ferguson plumbing,HVAC & Hydronic supply locations in Kentucky , 26 locations in Tennessee and more in IN,IA,MO,AR,OH and so on. I guess it shouldn't surprise me that Lowes was your first thought/option. Especially when you throw around numbers that are FAR from close or accurate. When someone quotes $40/ft prices for underground pipe that anyone can buy 1.25" dual pex flex for $16.00-$18.00/ft or 1.5" logstor dual for $22 or single pipe logstor 1.5" for $12.00/ft =$24/ft for both S&R runs. Do you do that to scare people or because you just don't know cause you've never bought or quoted it. Those are over the phone quotes to anyone, not contractor dealer costs. 85 watts versus 125 watts???? You must of meant 33 watts for a small 15-58 and 240-320 watts for large pumps. $75 pump (common,easy to find) versus $350 pump.... $30-$33 per year versus $290-$340 electricity usage. A small reliable application and one stressed and way over any recommended specs. I've done all kinds of radiant systems, but I still have an engineered plan done every time to ensure the customers investment is properly installed and working. I don't learn on the job at their expense
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Good grief sprinter, do you always have to be a jack ass?
:post:
I have more stuff in my truck bed than my local Ferguson for this business, they are horrible
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Here is a drawing using John Siegenthalers hydronic design studio software, on primary secondary. Just think of the buffer tank as the flat plate in this case. And an except from Bob Rohr in Missouri on pri/sec piping.
" The primary loop circ is usually a low head, high GPM circ. It's ONLY job is to move fluid around that circulator loop. It doesn't move any flow through secondary loops. Either the Grundfos 15-58 or Taco oo7 on speed 1 will usually be fine for that. To move 150,000 BTU at a 20Fdegree delta T you need to move 15 gpm. look for a circ to do that job at a low head, some of the DHW recirc pumps are great, but expensive as they are usually bronze or stainless volutes. "
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Nice drawing sprinter BUT I do not see any true comparison to a non pressurized OWB, this appears to me to be a pressurized indoor boiler that uses thermal convection to transfer the heat from the indoor boiler to a buffering tank without the use of a circulator and then from there to 1 circ feeding multiple zones, I see no similarity to a primary secondary heat loop at all, this will not work on an OWB period.
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I was thinking the same thing as slimjim. Was trying to figure out how the pressurized boiler was supplying water to the buffer tank. I don't see the primary secondary loops.( wrong drawing?)
Moving 15 gpm through a buffer tank with very little pressure drop would seem a lot different than 15 gpm through a fphe with a pressure drop of 5 psi or more. 15 gpm at 11 or more feet of head is beyond an 007 and maybe the 15-58.
I hope to learn from this thread as I am about to make some decisions related to this.
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Nice drawing sprinter BUT I do not see any true comparison to a non pressurized OWB, this appears to me to be a pressurized indoor boiler that uses thermal convection to transfer the heat from the indoor boiler to a buffering tank without the use of a circulator and then from there to 1 circ feeding multiple zones, I see no similarity to a primary secondary heat loop at all, this will not work on an OWB period.
I would say I disagree with you. That symbol is what John uses as for wood gasification furnace. For a pressurized furnace he would have used a different symbol. I would bet the wood gasification circulator was inadvertently left out.
Neal
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Slim do P&M gassers have a pump run 24/7 like ours do? Most high efficiency furnaces I've seen have to.
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Sprinter, how many outdoor furnaces have you physically installed? I'm not asking how many plans you dreamed up. I'm not asking how many people you told what they should do. I'm not asking how many pressurized boilers you have installed. I'm asking how many times you took a pipe wrench and put a unpressurized outdoor furnace system in by yourself. There just seems to be some sort of disconnect with the reality of how these systems work.
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Naturally Aspirated, I do see what looks like a pressure relief valve on the gasser, that tells me it's pressurized and also if it were set up non pressurized it would not work, how would you keep the air that WILL develop in the upper heat loops out, and yes the circ may have been inadvertently left out but that is not the only problem with that drawing, it is also not what I would consider a primary secondary loop, I'm going to try and stop by Scotts on my way to Florida this weekend and perhaps I can enlist his help in posting a drawing of the way that I do it, some may think it is nuts but it has always worked for me, I'm certainly not saying that it's my way or the highway as I know there are many here smarter than I but I have spent many a night on a jobsite in my motor home thinking and discussing piping with some pretty darn intelligent folks over a few Buds, Sprinter, just because you made a mistake does not mean we don't love you, HUGS and keep posting, I have found several of your opinions to be helpful and we all make mistakes, GOD knows I have. Yoder, yes they do, you would not want it any other way, Scott, when I stop by remind me to show you how I shut the boiler off when it runs out of wood and why.
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Thanks Slim, I thought you would have to.
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Where are you at Yoder, I plan on coming down 81
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Naturally Aspirated, I do see what looks like a pressure relief valve on the gasser, that tells me it's pressurized and also if it were set up non pressurized it would not work, how would you keep the air that WILL develop in the upper heat loops out, and yes the circ may have been inadvertently left out but that is not the only problem with that drawing, it is also not what I would consider a primary secondary loop, I'm going to try and stop by Scotts on my way to Florida this weekend and perhaps I can enlist his help in posting a drawing of the way that I do it, some may think it is nuts but it has always worked for me, I'm certainly not saying that it's my way or the highway as I know there are many here smarter than I but I have spent many a night on a jobsite in my motor home thinking and discussing piping with some pretty darn intelligent folks over a few Buds, Sprinter, just because you made a mistake does not mean we don't love you, HUGS and keep posting, I have found several of your opinions to be helpful and we all make mistakes, GOD knows I have. Yoder, yes they do, you would not want it any other way, Scott, when I stop by remind me to show you how I shut the boiler off when it runs out of wood and why.
His SOP is to put a pressure relief valve on all furnaces, pressurized or not - at least in the drawings in his book.
I am not saying that it is a properly done non-pressurized drawing at all. I know he does give examples of how not to do things, perhaps this is once of those instances.
Neal
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Perhaps you are right, I sure hope Sprinter isn't pissed at us all, Scott, Yoder, maybe,but not all of us, come on Sprinter, don't get offended so easily
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My wife constantly tells me my input is important, even if I am a moron.... :bash:
Neal
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My wife constantly tells me my input is important, even if I am a moron.... :bash:
Neal
:thumbup:
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We are near exit 114
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COLD BEER!
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Sceptre, I thought your choice of a 26-99 was a good one considering the psi drop at your fphe. Was hoping to hear more discussion on that one.
On your domestic hot water circuit, were you planning on circulating through another fphe and still another pump on the DHW tank? Or just supply heat from the primary loop side and simply direct your makeup water through the fphe. I was wondering because of the need to run it 24/7, on a timer, or ??.
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Pissed, nope ....why....it's only a forum and disagreements or misunderstandings. There literally is no better way to learn short of on the job where it's more expensive.
Everything is there in the picture. Doesn't anyone know what a thermoblock is???? Google it. Like I said just think of the buffer as a flat plate. Pressurized or not that is irrelevant, you should be able to understand this, just because its different than a brochure picture, it shouldn't stump you. Plans like this assume you have some hydronic knowledge and why every pipe detail or length isn't noted on there. Further into the program it details what size everything is, and when you make changes it calculates it all out. Pointing out errors or suggestions. Pretty much every circ and popular brand device specs are in the program.
Let's just say that the buffer is a flat plat and the primary loop needs 15 GPM/150kbtu a 007/15-58 will work because the header and flat plate are sized for it. Don't get stuck in the other way of thinking/doing it. Primary loops should never have high head. And 10' would be considered high.
Slim the load zone IS the primary loop in this case, the boiler is secondary. There are many versions of P/S piping. The whole reason for P/S is to match two parts of a system with different flows and still be invisible to each other. P/S piping books and online info everywhere to see all versions and what defines a primary or secondary layout.
http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.cfm (http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.cfm)
http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/86928-primary-secondary-piping-back-by-popular-demand?v=preview (http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/86928-primary-secondary-piping-back-by-popular-demand?v=preview)
A couple good sources you might even find at the library, Dan Holohan "Pumping Away" or siggy's "Modern Hydronics"
This broadens your design or expansion add-on options. Excellent for troubleshooting systems you didn't install.
Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is. Its so easy it's confusing.
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Sceptre, I thought your choice of a 26-99 was a good one considering the psi drop at your fphe. Was hoping to hear more discussion on that one.
On your domestic hot water circuit, were you planning on circulating through another fphe and still another pump on the DHW tank? Or just supply heat from the primary loop side and simply direct your makeup water through the fphe. I was wondering because of the need to run it 24/7, on a timer, or ??.
No second circulator. Secondary loop and then makeup water on the other side. I don't think there is a need for another circ.
As far as the 26-99 goes, this is what slimjim suggested I use. He is Much more knowledgeable than I with this stuff so he must have his reasons for it. Hopefully he'll be on later to explain why
I talked to him numerous times by phone and explained to him what my plans were. This is what he came up with and I fully trust his judgement.
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Pissed, nope ....why....it's only a forum and disagreements or misunderstandings. There literally is no better way to learn short of on the job where it's more expensive.
Everything is there in the picture. Doesn't anyone know what a thermoblock is???? Google it. Like I said just think of the buffer as a flat plate. Pressurized or not that is irrelevant, you should be able to understand this, just because its different than a brochure picture, it shouldn't stump you. Plans like this assume you have some hydronic knowledge and why every pipe detail or length isn't noted on there. Further into the program it details what size everything is, and when you make changes it calculates it all out. Pointing out errors or suggestions. Pretty much every circ and popular brand device specs are in the program.
Let's just say that the buffer is a flat plat and the primary loop needs 15 GPM/150kbtu a 007/15-58 will work because the header and flat plate are sized for it. Don't get stuck in the other way of thinking/doing it. Primary loops should never have high head. And 10' would be considered high.
Slim the load zone IS the primary loop in this case, the boiler is secondary. There are many versions of P/S piping. The whole reason for P/S is to match two parts of a system with different flows and still be invisible to each other. P/S piping books and online info everywhere to see all versions and what defines a primary or secondary layout.
http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.cfm (http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.cfm)
http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/86928-primary-secondary-piping-back-by-popular-demand?v=preview (http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/86928-primary-secondary-piping-back-by-popular-demand?v=preview)
A couple good sources you might even find at the library, Dan Holohan "Pumping Away" or siggy's "Modern Hydronics"
This broadens your design or expansion add-on options. Excellent for troubleshooting systems you didn't install.
Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is. Its so easy it's confusing.
Also, it may not be the best idea to suggest people treat FPHE and buffer tanks as the same thing without adding the caveat(s) of how different they behave i.e. head loss, which may require different circulators in some instances, even if it is not true in your current example.
Neal
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Okay Sprinter, I will take your word for it. What brand do you install?
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Everything is there in the picture. Doesn't anyone know what a thermoblock is????
That's the part that I missed. It makes sense now. :thumbup:
Neal
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Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is.
Ummmmm........What brand(s) of outdoor wood fired unpressurized hydronic furnaces/boilers do you sell? How many outdoor installs have you done?
Yoder asked a few very simple questions, right? How's about some answers?
You seem to go out of your way to attempt to belittle folks who frequent this site. I'm guessing that there are a few issues you are dealing with in your personal life? Inferiority complex? Some type of envy?
What is the name of your business?
How many years in the business?
I'm going to be in the Brown City area soon. I'd sure like to see your business and some of your installs!!!
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Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is.
Ummmmm........What brand(s) of outdoor wood fired unpressurized hydronic furnaces/boilers do you sell? How many outdoor installs have you done?
Yoder asked a few very simple questions, right? How's about some answers?
You seem to go out of your way to attempt to belittle folks who frequent this site. I'm guessing that there are a few issues you are dealing with in your personal life? Inferiority complex? Some type of envy?
What is the name of your business?
How many years in the business?
I'm going to be in the Brown City area soon. I'd sure like to see your business and some of your installs!!!
Thanks Marty, the folks who have always helped on here are all starting to say it's not worth it anymore because of stuff like this. If he doesn't even have anything to do with outdoor wood boilers and also thinks there junk because they don't have lambda controls or whatever, then what exactly is he doing.
I appreciate different points of view and learning different ways but some of this is sooo far from what we see 99% of the time it's a struggle.
God bless the poor soul struggling to pay his utilities when he logs on and sees diagrams like that and thinks that's what he needs to heat his home. . It would be like yea, no thanks, I'm done here
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Sceptre, thanks for the reply, I understand your using the single pump to a fphe on the DHW loop and your make up water gets heated. Will the pump run 24/7 or some how come on when it senses flow? Any thoughts? Slimjim?
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OK guys, i'm going to try and be my German,very patient as well as brilliant and very understanding wife. Sprinter, this drawing in my understanding has absolutely nothing to do with any installation of any Outdoor Wood Boiler that I have ever had the pleasure of being involved with. I may be missing something and if I am then please forgive me as I am simply a simple and quite happy man that has very little formal education, I do not read a great deal and this forum is about as computer savvy as I get, you post some very interesting links and to be honest I do not have the time to follow them all, I do appreciate them as they do help folks and yes you do piss some folks off, I am not one of those people and certainly do not wish to see us all jumping on your crap, I do have the ability to learn and I will challenge the rest of us regulars to do the same if there is a better way than the way we are all doing it today, if it makes sense I love to spend money on fancy stuff that makes my system look great but I first have to justify it to my customer, I'm not great with math so you may have to hold my hand with that part a bit but I'm willing to learn. For the rest of us, we will all make mistakes that don't make sense to others and I can only hope that the next group of guru's does not jump on us as we have with Sprinter, I feel a bit responsible for being one of the first and for that Sprinter I do apologize, I do think that I could have handled it a bit differently, perhaps more professionally, I guess I felt it to be more like a bunch of guys sitting at a bonfire of car tires, drinking beer and talking shop. Motto of the story is, Do unto others as you would have done to you, Spoken as a Libertarian and not a self righteous right wing conspiracy theorist, THANK GOD FOR SPELL CHECK
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Well said Slim
You will have to understand folks don't take well to belittling over and over and it always seemingly coming from a Google search, one has to really wonder what or why on earth someone is going about things this way. Sprinter in his time here has made a couple posts I learned something in, but more so than not he's simply said were all idiots without saying, "your all idiots".
I think you slim would have to understand how a nice would feel if he came here searching for honest help, stumbles upon someone saying we're all idiots and this is how it's done. Most folks would stop right at the diagram itself and say no way not for me this is worse than I imagined
The systems we do most of the time are quite simple, Slim you do a lot of complex systems as they tend to be far more of that style applications the further north and east we travel. Most folks have a simple forced air hookup across middle America and we may see the occasional boiler. Knowing we kept boiler protection in mind when sizing the applications and making sure the home was being heated without causing damage to the boiler results in many happy customers. I truly believe if folks need half of the stuff in that diagram, well someone else can do it.
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Scott, I too feel like I have learned from Sprinters posts. I was hoping he would come back to discuss his diagram further. I knew I had seen it somewhere, it is from page 37 in issue # 10 in Caleffi's Idronics magazine. Not that you couldn't use the diagram to illustrate a different point, but if you go back a page in the publication the section is about the use of buffer tanks in conjunction with low mass boilers and in this case, the focus was on the mod/con auxiliary boiler and how the buffer tank helped to prevent short cycling. Interesting stuff so I guess it would be like going as far as Calculus in math, maybe never using it but ending up being dam good at addition and subtraction.
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Sceptre, thanks for the reply, I understand your using the single pump to a fphe on the DHW loop and your make up water gets heated. Will the pump run 24/7 or some how come on when it senses flow? Any thoughts? Slimjim?
Actually, I'm not real sure how that is all going to be hooked up just yet. We haven't gotten that far into discussion yet. I may start another topic soon just for that
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Good question Idahohay, I normally use a sidearm that uses the existing circ on the outdoor loop but in this case Sceptre is choosing a flat plat and it's circ will need to be controlled, If he uses an electric hot water tank then the existing aqua stat on the tank could be used to maintain a minimum temp in the tank or an added aqua-stat on the hot water line to sense a drop in temp, break on rise or normally closed terminals would work, I would also suppose that he could use the circ on the open system that runs constant to guarantee the temps on the domestic, several choices there, this choice it would seem to me would be questionable as I think the flow would suffer with a 20 plate, what do some of you guys think?
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COLD BEER! Obama style! Everyone get together and drink it out. ::)
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(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/272/b/5/group_hug_by_gratlofatic-d4bak93.png)
Group hug!
Neal
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Thanks Sceptre and Slimjim. I've been heating all winter with a 19x20 water to air heat exchanger with a fan behind it and now have drywalled all around it. It needs to come out and my infloor hooked up so I can get the interior done. My original plan was to flow through a sidearm first then a fphe but this was going to be a challenge, all taking place in a tiny bathroom under a stairway. My plan now is to use close spaced tees in the supply from the OWB before the fphe, and pump to still another fphe for the DHW. I happened to have two 006 stainless pumps so I'm looking into using them both at the same time, controlled by w/h temperature hoping to just set my desired temperature and forget it. I will also be able to bypass the main fphe in the off season and still heat my DHW with the boiler loop if needed.
Just wanted to add, my reason for using the FPHE in the first pace was so I could use 30% glycol in my floor loops. My owb is only 85 gallons so if I leave in the winter it would be fairly simple to drain out.
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That's all it should be yoder, beers around the campfire, there is nothing I typed that I wouldn't say in person. I know people are different in parts of the country, but these forums never do a conversation justice.
http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/NYSERDA-Hidley-Farm-Case-Study.pdf (http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/NYSERDA-Hidley-Farm-Case-Study.pdf)
http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/Integrating-Wood-Water.pdf (http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/Integrating-Wood-Water.pdf)
http://www.econoburn.com/index.php/resources.html (http://www.econoburn.com/index.php/resources.html)
Wow, pretty funny. How some see things. I guess if you feel you were belittled , you were probably expecting it. But the rest read along and learned. See if I just post all my own personal stuff, people discredit it as a bad idea or wrong info. (Already doing that to pics from calefi's wood hydronics book.)So I post info and links from the best accredited hydronic professionals in the trade on wood boilers for people to learn on their own and make their own opinions or decisions. Take or leave it, I post facts and info people can research on their own for them to decide. It could stop right there. Or you could reply with snide remarks and excuses, instead of questions and data.
I'll will admit I am definitely Type A personality and I pride myself in doing the absolute best for my customers. But I have hard data and being licensed in the trade for 20 plus years, first hand experience working with all kinds of boilers not just one type. Any one else here licensed in the trade by the state? Yet I'm the one that has to prove my credentials???? It will never be enough to make those who don't wanna be happy.
Heating with hot water is a very basic simple concept, 1. Heat source 2. Conveyor system 3. Emitters 4. Controls. that's it, ALWAYS. Anything can be figured out with manufacturer specs and charts.
I'm always about saving money and being very efficient, I donate and work on habitat for humanity projects in the past. So saying I'm using stuff only the rich can afford, simply isn't true. It's mostly farms, rural, suburban with some bigger cities spread out. The majority of customers are not white collar. I don't push useless equipment, I educate them, we'll calculate out the costs or ROI right there for them to decide. It's their money and a big investment, I want them to know why and for them to decide.
Idaho, yeah you got it, it's from Calefi's wood boiler hydronics edition. That design is applicable to almost all resi installs. You don't have to have the buffer or a FPHE. Multi boilers don't effect it either, because of the way it's piped. You could add or subtract at will. No where am I saying your system HAS to be like this or that. But if you want increased efficiency, more reliability you will need a little more than a one loop brochure design. It is intentionally made to look very easy in brochures as to not discourage sales. And even the manufacturer will say its not the most efficient design.
Isn't the goal to be efficient and reliable
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http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/NYSERDA-Hidley-Farm-Case-Study.pdf (http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/NYSERDA-Hidley-Farm-Case-Study.pdf)
http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/Integrating-Wood-Water.pdf (http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/Integrating-Wood-Water.pdf)
http://www.econoburn.com/index.php/resources.html (http://www.econoburn.com/index.php/resources.html)
Any one else here licensed in the trade by the state? Yet I'm the one that has to prove my credentials???? It will never be enough to make those who don't wanna be happy.
I wanna be happy!!!
So far, as far as my feeble little brain can comprehend anyways, I can gather three major things that you are a fan of:
1) Indoor gasification hydronic pressurized boilers that employ mass storage.
2) Copying and pasting.
3) Using said copied and pasted to materials in a manner which makes your head swell, which feeds your ego and makes you appear to YOURSELF to be a bunch more pertinent and important to a group of folks who can easily see you for the pompous arsh that you've(you) become(are).
Again,
What brand(s) of unpressurized wood fired hydronic furnaces/boilers do you sell?
How many installs of above have you done?
What is the name of your business?
Did I leave anything out?
We've all shown you ours. Lets have a look see at yours! ;)
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Yes, I'm using an electric hot water tank. Would it make sense to put the mixing valve on the make up water in-between the fphe and tank or put it in the out bound hot water to the rest on the house?
Not to sure what is the best way to have the circ hooked up. What do you all think I should do
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Sprinter, my license # starts with MS30014---, I left the last 3 off to protect my innocence, the MS is for Master solid fuels, state of Maine, it took me 4 years to get that damned cardboard cutout and costs me dearly every year, Yes I am licensed.
Sceptre I would put the mixing valve on the outbound from the tank, you may want to think about a tee off before the mixing valve so you have at least 1 port with really hot water.
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Good idea.
Which of those options you listed as far as the circ goes would you use
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You are going to have to remind me, my wife has had me going in the normal 36 directions at once since she got home, Good Lord I love that crazy woman.
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Don't they do that we'll. Lol.
I was referring to the options you posted on here earlier today. Reply 83 to be exact.
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I think I would go with the last choice using the non pressurized side but with a larger plate exchanger to reduce the risk of reducing flow
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I take that answer to be a very long winded no. No experience with what this forum is actually about, outdoor wood furnaces. At least you were honest enough to give an answer anyone could see through.
;)
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I think I would go with the last choice using the non pressurized side but with a larger plate exchanger to reduce the risk of reducing flow
Aren't we using a secondary loop for the dhw? I was just wondering how the circ was going to be controled
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Well, made the final payment on my bl 2840 and Logstor yesterday. Hope to have it here sometime by the end of next month. Haven't done much on my install, but plan on getting on it real soon. Will post pics as I go
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Look at what finally arrived today. Can't wait to get it all setup.
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You're in China Sceptre?
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I know. Lol. Not sure what I did there. I'll see if I can fix it
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Congratulations sceptre, give me a holler if you need anything and thanks for your patience!
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Will do Slim. Won't be until mid to late September before I get to it. Putting the shed up is the first priority
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Good luck!
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:thumbup:
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This is where I'm at with my install. Just need to hook up my water for filling the owb and primary secondary loop and then running the rehau to the hx's. At the boiler nothing has been done yet and I'm waiting for the electrical to be done in the shop. Need to start filling the lean too with wood now. Sorry for the crappy inside pic
For some reason I can get my pics to post right side up. Sorry
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Nice set up Sceptre :thumbup: What size shop did you build? Would like to see a few more pics of it, even if they are upside down. ;D
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It is 32 x 44 and the lean to is 32 x 14. Electrical should be done sometime this week and then I'll be able to finish the inside
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I like it. 8)
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Thanks. It's been a long time coming ;D
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Well I finally got her fired up today. Only took 45 minutes to get it up to 195. Everything seems to be fine except for two unions leaking on the hx for the domestic. Not sure why and not quite sure how to fix it.
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Sooooo, how do you like the heat Sceptre? :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Break the Unions apart and put some pipe dope on the face of the unions, good Idea to do whenever you use a union!
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It's 75 in here and the blower hasn't been on since 1:00 PM. Lol. I'm amazed at how quickly it got up to temp. Just need to figure out the problem with the leaking unions and then it will be power off at the water heater. Can't wait for that one
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Break the Unions apart and put some pipe dope on the face of the unions, good Idea to do whenever you use a union!
[/quote
Thanks slim. I'll give that a try in the morning. Got a guy coming on Wednesday or Thursday to check out the wiring
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Awesome!!!
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The pipe dope did the trick. Thanks again.
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You are very welcome!
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Break the Unions apart and put some pipe dope on the face of the unions, good Idea to do whenever you use a union!
Great tip Slim!
Another related tip I learned from my 47 years of union plumbing/pipefitting-experienced father:
an alternative to pipe dope and/or Teflon tape is a methacrylate ester-based thread sealant (not thread locker) for hydraulic and pneumatic threaded connections. I prefer the 54540 Permatex Pneumatic/Hydraulic Sealant (Click Here) (http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-pneumatic-hydraulic-sealant-detail)
I use this sealant on anything I never want to leak at a threaded connection. Hundreds of applications later, not one has ever leaked in 12 years. The product is not inexpensive but you can find the 1.2 oz. bottle on Amazon for about $25-26.
BTW... my dad reads all of your tips on this website and thinks you are a really good plumber! Big compliment from my dad, trust me. :thumbup:
FANTASTIC-looking installation sceptre74!