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[Rob 165]

Russ you seem like a genuine guy and very polite, but I just have alot of resentment towards Shaver.  First, let me state I sold my 165 a month ago and have never been happier to burn gas.  My neighbor still has a Shaver and the other has a Nature's Comfort.  There's absolutely no comparison between the two in regards to quality of construction and efficency.  The Nature's Comfort wins hands down ( And no, I don't sell them).

If you have a well insulated home and cycle your pump on and off with the blower in your furnace, you will boil water.  The water circulation in these stoves is terrible and the fact that the stove "Free Runs" when the thermostat is satisfied only adds to the problem.  A flapper is a must.  My neighbor with the Shaver's Stove always has to worry about what the temperature might be during the day and load his stove accordingly, as well as worrying about where to set the flapper.  The Neighbor with the Natures Comfort loads it and forgets it.  The soleniod controlled flapper is the only logical control for any entry level stove.  Having a manual flapper only contributes to boiling water. 

Second, a cheap $10.00 thermo disc for an aquastat is almost criminal.  They will inadvertently stick, causing extreme temperatures and severe water loss.  At the very least, Shaver should weld in an immersion well for adding aquastat at a later date.  I detailed in another thread where I removed the thermo disc and welded in a nipple and a collar to put an immersion well on the stove to have adequate temperature control and hence voided my warranty. 

Third , the silicone sealing of the top of the stove simply doesn't work.  I engineered a mechanical means to hold the cover down and finally got the steam to stop soaking my insulation. 

The only way this stove works, is if you run your pump 24/7 to keep the water circulated and in turn waste wood.

Russ I wish you all the luck in the world, but I can state that I feel "liberated" that I no longer have a Shaver Stove.

[Russ Brumit]

I'm sorry you had a bad expeirence with them . So far I've been satisfied. I agree with a lot of your post to some extent. I have changed the thermostat and the damper mod too. I just want to state that for the money i spent i got what they were advertising. Do i wish some things were different ? Sure.  That natures comfort is more money hands down. I'm not saying its not worth it but there are some customers that just arn't going to spend a nickle more than they have too. Shaver has a lot of nice things they offer like delivering and setting the furnace on the pad . That adds to the easy home owner install and a good feeling of acomplishing something yourself and keeping your money in your pocket. The hot water set up is easy to change if needed and works perfect. The silicone to seal the top plate has not been a problem for me . The door silicone is another story though. I dont like the latch too much. I wish the stove had some kind of wedge system so you could apply more pressure if needed. I replaced the silicone and it was easy enough but only lasted one year . One thing i would really like to have is a huge door so i could buy one of those log lifts . That would be a real help.I dont think other dealers should be downing stoves they dont sell.

[yoderheating]

 Russ, I'm just curious. You have talked about shaver being a cheaper option, I was just wondering if you would care to share what kind of prices you offer. The cheapest furnace I carry is a furnace that sells for $4200.00. This is a stainless furnace with a ranco and damper. This also includes delivery within 100 miles of my business.

[Rob 165]

Russ, I went to the local hardware store and bought the largest "Rope Gasket" they had and embedded it into new silicone.  It worked great and again should have came from Shaver that way.  As for the latch, mine was broke when I got it.  Shaver didn't deliver, we had FedEx do it.  I always kept a variety of flat washers laying on top of my stove to put between the latch to add tension.  The only bad thing was the latch and the door hinges are welded to 3/16 steel and when the stove heats up they will both pull forward.  My door hinges were not plumb from the factory and this always caused a sealing problem around the door.  Another thought is to weld an extra tab to the front of the latch, then tap it and stick a bolt through it.  You could then tighten it up to take up the slack in the door.
The other nightmare was there was no sight glass nor vent tube on the overflow.  Both of these have to be made and Shaver did not leave any threads on the nipple, so I had to remove the siding and cut threads on the nipple.  I then threaded on an elbow and put on a piece of clear tubing with a piece of hard plastic pipe over it with a section cut out for a sight glass.  I left the clear plastic as long as possible to allow my steaming water to condensate, cool and fall back into the tank, preventing water loss. 
These are all things I had to learn for myself.  I had countless hours of research and loss of sleep dealing with this.  When you spend $5000.00, you should not have to do all that I had to do to get this stove to work.  I would pay $2000.00 dollars more for all this to be done at purchase, as if you figure up my time I probably had $10000.00 dollars in a stove that at the end of the day still did not function as well as most other stoves. 

Again Russ, I think you are a decent person and can respect what I'm trying to say here.  I don't get a commission or even own a stove anymore, but I feel a duty to advise people about the downfalls of this stove.  My friend with the Nature's Comfort came to me last year stating that he was going to buy a stove and was "sold" on a Shaver's after reading "Ben's" BS.  I told him about all the problems I had and pointed him to a Nature's Comfort.  I hooked it up for him and he has nothing but praise for the stove.  I've tended it for him when he's away and it is nothing short of awesome.  I also tend my other neighbor's Shaver's at times and well.........

If the folks at Shaver's had better customer service and would incorporate the modifications I made (I sent them to Ben)  Then I would probably forget and forgive.  I have decided not to file a civil suit, instead just try to educate people about this incomplete product.

[Russ Brumit]

Russ, I'm just curious. You have talked about shaver being a cheaper option, I was just wondering if you would care to share what kind of prices you offer. The cheapest furnace I carry is a furnace that sells for $4200.00. This is a stainless furnace with a ranco and damper. This also includes delivery within 100 miles of my business.

 Look I'm not trying to argue  about who has the lowest price . Lots of things to consider. Thats not the point . You are on the Shaver forum . Why are you on here  ? Trying to sell your brand ? Its kind of sad that you are on here and sell for another company.

[Russ Brumit]

Rob , I can repect what yout trying to say to a degree. You were not happy with your furnace. Not everybody feels that way. I am very pleased with mine. I am a honest person and will tell you that so far everyone i have sold the customers all have said they are pleased and like them. The overflow hose , I slid on a peice of clear hose and a 90* pvc elbow,two clamps and it works fine. I can see the water level and lose almost no water.Not a problem at all. The door is ok on mine too.I would like to have a way to adjust the tension thats all . The bolt idea i had heard about before.Might try that.I have a 1/8 inch peice of metal glued on the latch now and its working. Like i said i like playing with it and improving it . I do this with all my equiptment and toys too. Always trying to improve them . Its actually fun.Thanks to these forums it makes it alot easier. We are all different . There hasn't been a single thing I've bought where i use it and say man why didn't they do this or that. We laugh at work when all the monday morning quarterbacks come in and start saying"well why did they do that or they should have done this " I wish you you could come see my incomplete product. LOL !  2400 ft house , 2700ft shop ,hot water in both and pool. House is 187' from furnace,shop is 225' and pool is 100'. Makes me wonder how it can do all this .I'm trying to educate people too.

[yoderheating]

Russ, I'm just curious. You have talked about shaver being a cheaper option, I was just wondering if you would care to share what kind of prices you offer. The cheapest furnace I carry is a furnace that sells for $4200.00. This is a stainless furnace with a ranco and damper. This also includes delivery within 100 miles of my business.

 Look I'm not trying to argue  about who has the lowest price . Lots of things to consider. Thats not the point . You are on the Shaver forum . Why are you on here  ? Trying to sell your brand ? Its kind of sad that you are on here and sell for another company.

 Russ, this is a forum. People discuss thing here. If that bothers you then step away. The point of a forum is to exchange ideas and discuss a topic. Why shouldn't I have a right to ask questions about other brands?  If you see problems with the design of a Heat Master then post it on their page. I'm not afraid of the questions, everything can be improved. In fact I will tell you my biggest current complaint about Heat Master furnaces. On the HE models the secondary bypass door tends to build up condensation. If this gets bad enough it will drip down the front of the furnace making a nasty mess.
 On the question of prices, the only reason I brought it up is because that is what you have been pushing as the reasons people buy a furnace without dampers, ranko's ect.

[Russ Brumit]

I'm aware its a forum. I would think its for people to discuss ways to make their furnaces better .To improve them if possible.I dont have a problem with people discussing at all . Its the bashing i don't like . I think it shows a real lack of character to constantly put down a product you don't sell. I don't think Shavers are perfect by any standard . Its not just the money .They have a do it yourself easy design that's real appealing to a lot of people with limited funds.The warranty is good . Lots of stuff. They were the only company i talked to that actually took the time to show me how to make the 4 line insulated pex  myself. With the distance i have it was a huge savings . I take offense because i have one that works fine . I've got everything  i paid my money for. I'm  not going anywhere . Lets just agree to disagree and leave this forum open for helping people.

[Windwalker7]

I am a long time lurker and finally feel it is time for me to chime in.  I am a Shaver owner and am one of those people that bought the Shaver because of the price.  Yes it does not have the fit and finish as let's say a Central Boiler.

I like it and it heats well!

I belong to another board and many of us have made several improvements.  I came up with dryer vent flapper for the blower. It works very well.  I have done several mods.  They are all relatively cheap and easy to do.

I, as well as other members on that other board, enjoy tinkering and improving on the Shaver.

As far as the competition coming on the Shaver board to put down Shavers, I just see that they must be worried.  Or else why bother coming here?

I don't see them going to Central Boiler and comparing their furnace to them. Is that because they know CB makes a better furnace?



I also don't see Hardy or CB or any other brand going to the Heat Master board to bash their furnace.

It is pretty low for someone to do that.

 How thick is the firebox on the Heatmaster?   

How large of an area does that $4200 Heat master Heat?

You mentioned SS, I am aware that SS can not stand up to the contraction of heating and cooling like mild steel.  Some OWB companies have done away with SS because of problems that develope over time. Is Heat Master still using SS?


Does Heatmaster have an on site warranty for their furnace or do you have to send it to them to do repairs?


Anyone care to compare warranties?

How long has Heat Master been in business?

[Windwalker7]

I am not sure but I thought I read on another board that Heat Master is actually a Global Hydrinics.

Global Hydronics was selling OWBs under several names.


Not sure if Heat Master is one of them.

If so, There are several issues about them and their warranty.


I believe you actually have to send the entire furnace out to be repaired.  Boy wouldn't that suck?

[yoderheating]

 I will be happy to answer the questions posed by Windwalker7. I would like to make it clear I am just a dealer and do not speak for the company in any way, shape or form.
Heat Master has been in business for 10 years. They are built out of 409 stainless, not the 304 that has problems with cracking. Heatmore is also made out of 409 and I understand they have had very good success out of it as well. Heat Masters failure rate dropped dramatically when they went to the 409SS. Heat Master builds both the firebox and water jacket out of 10 gauge stainless steel. I would ask one question about Shaver, how thick is the water jacket?
 No, Heat Master has no relation with Global although they are made in the same town I believe. My father sold Global for a few years and then stopped because of all the problems.
 I always take care of any warranties for my customers.  If a furnace needs to be replaced I would do it at no charge, if one needs to be repaired I come out and do it. The only time I would ask a customer to ship a furnace is if the customer had come from outside of my installation/delivery area and had picked up the furnace. I would then do the repairs for free but would need the furnace brought back to me to have them done. The customer would also have the option of having a local person do the repair at my cost. In other words, any furnace that I deliver or install I would come out and repair. I have never charged a costumer for anything that is under warranty. If you want to do this long term you have to take care of your customers. There is another thread on here that is about different warranties, I have listed Heat Masters and several others have listed warranties for other brands.
 My main competition in this area is Central Boiler, Hardy and maybe Taylor although their sales seem to have fallen off since Central Boiler and Heat Master have become more dominate. I don't don't see many problems with Central Boiler, in fact I tell potential customers if they want a quality mild steel furnace I would recommend a Central Boiler. If someone is looking for a 304ss furnace I recommend Hardy. I've never said Shaver was a terrible furnace, they just seem to need to make some minor improvements. Hopefully they will continue to evolve and over time will design one of the premier furnaces on the market. To be honest the first Heat Masters were no jewels, I know because I owned one. Thank God they have made improvements every year, always trying to improve their design. 
 You ask about the furnace that sells for $4200. It heats 3000sq ft, the firebox is 32 x 44 deep. This furnace doesn't have shaker grates and an ash pan. The cheapest furnace I sell with those options is $5100.
 Let me repeat myself so I am not misunderstood. I am not saying Shaver sells a bad product that is unusable or that will fall apart in several years. I'm sure they will supply a owner many years of happy heating. I have just been wondering why they use certain design features and don't include certain features that are standard on almost any other main line furnace company.  And it also has bothered me that they have made claims on efficiency ability that seem to defy logic.
 I actually have had a number of conversations with Shaver about becoming a dealer so I could offer a mild steel furnace to go along with my stainless one.  There is a dealer about 50 miles from me but I have heard he doesn't know how to install. I'm just not satisfied with the furnace yet to stake my reputation on it. Maybe I'm being overly cautious I don't know. Anyway, hope that helped clear this up.
 
 
 
 

[Windwalker7]

I won't dance around, I'll just come out and say it.

I realize this is a forum and is meant to ask questions. I've followed along watching and reading on this site.

I see that you sell Heat Master and it looked to me as if you were trying to bash another poster on this forum for selling Shavers.

I believe that the other poster tried to make it clear that there is a market for Shavers because of its lower price compared to other manufacturers.

I'll come right out and say that it appeared to me that you were trying to promote your furnace on the Shaver thread hoping someone researching Shavers would se you posts.

You make a claim that Central Boiler and Heat master are more dominate, yet if we click over onto the Heat Master forum on this board, we don't see much going on over there. I wonder why that is.

It appears to me that you are fishing in someone elses pond here. Yes, it is a forum but the way you come across,  it seems you have other motives. You sell Heat Masters so that can be understood.

Now you wouldn't want someone going over on the Heat Master thread and start putting down you OWBs would you?

We could compare prices for your model that heas the same square footage as a Shaver or we could compare fire box thickness.  Those two things are what convinced me to get a Shaver. I know from being on other boards, that is the very thing that sold those guys on getting a Shaver too. Those are Shaver's strong points.

I will admit that the fit and finish on Shavers is not up to par compared to any other OWB out there.

To me as well as others, we bought these things to heat our homes not for a lawn ornament.
I don't want to come across as a smart alic just letting you know that by being a Shaver owner I can understand why someone would buy this OWB over another brand.  Even though it needs several mods to get it to where other furnaces are at, it was still cheaper with me doing a couple mods


Carry on !

[yoderheating]

Windwalker7, I have never sold a furnace off of a forum and I doubt I ever will. I actually sell more furnaces then I can install so there is little reason for me to beg for sales on a forum. The only reason I am on here is for entertainment and the occasional helpful advice I may be able to provide as a experienced furnace installer.  If you look over on the Woodmaster page you will find a thread where I have been trying to help a guy with his water flow problem.
 When I referred to the dominance of Heat Master and Central Boiler I was speaking about here in South West Va where I sell furnaces. I have no idea how these brands stack up against other brands in other parts of the country.
 I welcome anyone who has questions about Heat Masters design or ideas on improvements to post them on Heat Masters thread. Like I said before, there are things that I don't like about them and I have expressed my ideas about improvements to the company. I also plan on a trip to the factory next spring to better express myself and the improvements I want.
 One comment on the idea of firebox thickness. There is two things to consider with firebox thickness. 1 the thicker the metal the longer it takes to rust out. 2 the thicker it is the less efficient the furnace is, there is a formula (that I can't seem to find at the moment) that shows how heat travels through different types of metal. If my memory is correct mild steel absorbs heat at twice the rate of 409 and at almost three times the rate of 304. This would mean that a mild steel furnace can be twice as thick as a furnace built with 409 and have the same rate of heat absorption.  When a furnace has a very thick firebox you run the risk of not being able to absorb the heat as fast as the furnace produces it. This is the reason Hardy builds their 304 furnaces out of 16 gauge steel but Heat Master and Heatmore can build them out of 10 gauge.  One other thing to watch for is the thickness of the water jacket. Most furnaces that I have every seen leak have been from the water jacket. Also the a thicker water jacket actually helps as a insulator.
As always, I enjoy the discussion.

[willieG]

all good point made by yonder. i buillt my own and i can weld just about any material out there but i chose mild steel just for the ease of fabricating...i can cut it with a torch and weld it in all positions and (heaven forbid) if it ever leakes it can easily be welded with out too much cleaning as a good stick welder will dig through the creosite and ash and still produce a good weld.

and on top of that a mile steel furnace can be welded by most farmers that have the patience (and we all know that these furnaces are mostly for country folks and most have a buzz box in the garage)

lets face it folks, the old furnaces (not the new gasifiers) are nothing more than a box of some sort surrounded by water, who makes the best one? hell who knows. they all work, some say thicker is better, some say natural draft is better than forced..every  builder has his sales pitch. and most that buy any model swear by it...after all they mostly don't have another model to compare to.
and if you buy one that happens to be a lemon, you may bitch about it but the next guy that got the same model may be happy for years to come.  i ahve three different models in operation close to me, a heatmoretaht has been working for ten years with no major problems other than the fan rotted off....a central boiler that has only been in operation for 2 years (but i personally liked the build of it) and an old pacific western that has been running for 10 years that has leaked twice. i will say that i talk with all these owners and we all burn close to the same amount of wood when the sqare footage is taken into account was the leaker a lemon or the norm for the company? i dont know but it performs aboput the same as the rest

[Russ Brumit]

Windwalker, Thanks for  sharing the dryer flapper mod you made. I bought the one from Shaver.I want to try yours sometime but have to make some room first. It would be nice to get rid of the solenoid.Both the ranco and the solenoid are now available as an option . I show every customer both ways and explain what the advantages of buying them from the factory are . Most just say, "I'll deal with it later". They see that price and that's what they want to pay. I can understand that .I dont expect to sell any furnaces on here. It would be nice but its not why I'm here. I just want the people who come here to know that they work and if they buy one they will be satisfied .